Alex_uk: 40 years in the making

I actually like the stagger step approach here. I feel like those periods of calorie restriction will help re-sensitize the body to food, vs if you were to just continually slam it the entire time. Should make it easier to gain at the initial phase of the regaining.

Chicken seems to be a very regular source of animal protein for you. Do you have any consideration to switch to beef, lamb or mutton (with you being UK)? I bring this up from more of a micronutrient perspective: those ruminant animals tend to carry some more B-vitamins, and their fats are a better distribution of Omega 3 to 6s.

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Why do you feel like you need to cut now? Appetite and pumps are still good, performance is awesome, and you look great. What’s the driving idea?

Not enough?

Just done my veg prep for dinner and a few lunches (mixed roast veg, pre roast, hopefully @QuadQueen approved!).

I think your take of famine, feast, ferocity and as you say stagger step approach, have been whirring around my brain, as I think through the first half of next year.

I’m in a good spot, so don’t want to spend too much time deviating from what I’m doing, but:

This feels nigh on necessary at this point, my body definitely feels like it’s gone through a fairly easy and consistent stage of growth, now it’s resisting, and whilst I know I can overpower it, it feels more sensible to re-sensitise instead.

This is predominantly for budgetary reasons, chicken is significantly cheaper than beef in the UK (presumably everywhere else as well). Lamb is amazing but super expensive. Beef has just come on offer (Christmas) at the supermarkets, unfortunately I don’t have a lot of freezer space to take advantage. I eat beef mince about 2x-3x per week, probably around 1-1.5lbs maybe more, I buy between 3.5-5lbs of mince (5% fat - not because I’m worried about fat but it’s the better quality, zero grizzly bits) per week but that’s for family meals (wife and two kids), but I definitely eat the lion share of it.

I could try and improve here.

For the above reasons but also, I’ve got a cruise (floating buffet type, not drugs/programming type) at the end of May.

I look good in the right light with a pump but would love to be really, properly lean.

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I definitely understand the perspective here, especially when providing for a family. I like to reframe here that chicken isn’t necessarily cheaper. You’re most likely paying the same value, because you’re getting LESS with chicken then you would with those other animal sources. The issue tends to be that we view from the lens of “protein source” and don’t consider what else is at steak (sorry for the pun, had to do it).

All that said, you’re a unique case in that you’re not struggling with hunger but the opposite. If I saw someone white knuckling it on the fat loss side and they were eating a bunch of chicken, I’d tell them to switch to red meat to feel full (something Robert Sikes talks about). Here, that most likely WOULD work against someone looking to put on weight, but I’m more looking at it from the lens of “if you’re going to keep putting SO much of this stuff into your body, it should be good stuff”. I know you’ve expressed a desire to keep good health markers, and @Frank_C has brought up how his blood lipids actually got WORSE when he upped his chicken consumption, which I theorize is because it’s a monogastric animal typically fed a poor diet of soy and corn that gets passed on to us. That said, UK most likely has better standards for how they raise chickens.

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Two thumbs up!! I’d give it more thumbs if I had them. That looks BEAUTIFUL!!!

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That’s a good way of looking at it.

Haha that’s also a good point.

I remember that, I think I’m due a blood test soon, I’d imagine the change of diet, which has focused quite a bit on the “right” type of fats, probably would have improved it, but that’ll give me a base line, then I can run an experiment on myself and increase the beef and re-test.

I’d say yes, but marginally for chickens they definitely get the worst treatment. Cows/pigs/lambs usually get pretty decent amounts of time grazing (all day from what I can tell, my uncle was a dairy farmer but that was 20 years ago might have changed) - as far as I know we don’t really do feedlot raised in a stall style of husbandry and all the fresh meat you buy in the supermarket is UK raised.

It tasted it too! I do like eating healthier and love this sort of veg, I’d just got out of the habit of doing it, and whilst I am busy and there’s always that excuse (it’s definitely quicker and easier to put frozen pizzas in the oven) it’s about prioritising it enough to find the time.

Last night’s pre-bed:

Much less pretty than the veg, but high calories, and high protein - just a full cereal bowl full of PB and casein.

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That’s super interesting. I don’t know that I’ve run an experiment where I could look at that for myself, although it might be worthwhile. I have gone through periods of higher fat/ lower carb and vice versa, and my lipid panel doesn’t change (I’m talking like 2 points total). My own body weight is definitely an independent predictor of LDL and total cholesterol, which, itself, is obviously driven by food quantity and quality (and you could easily argue quality drives quantity)… so I guess I’m just thinking out loud that this makes mechanistic sense.

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So here’s my take on it, based on my degree in political science and philosophy (so, ya know, I’m good at lying and sophism)

The food quantity portion of it certainly plays a part, and alongside that would be the ratio of omega 6s to omega 3s. From what I’ve heard, the total numbers aren’t quite as significant as the ratio, and westerners tend to consume WAY more 6s than 3.

Linoleic acid is an omega-6 acid. We find this acid in corn and soy (among many other plant products), which tends to make up the majority of chicken feed for CAFO (concentrated animal feeding operations) raised chickens.

Since the chicken in monogastric, it’s body is rich in those linoleic acids. We eat the chicken, we eat the acids.

Omega 6 acids are inflammatory. It’s why we want to have that better balance of omega 3s: to reduce inflammation.

LDL is a cholesterol the body produces as a means to heal inflammation. It’s basically like a “patch” that the body applies to inflammed areas. When the body senses greater inflammation, it produces MORE LDL in order to heal the inflammation. This is why we see an uptick in LDL when we’re overconsuming Omega 6s.

It’s tricky, because we’re told to switch off of red meat and transition to white meat because the latter has less saturated fat than the former, but when we opt specifically for chicken we run into this issue due to the poor diet of conventionally raised chickens. And, of course, since we’re trying to gain, we’re REALLY slamming that chicken, which is just making the ratio worse and worse, since we’re not taking in enough Omega 3s to balance. Salmon would be a very awesome choice, as they’re a rich source of Omega 3s…but then you run into the issue that our waterways are so polluted that you have to be concerned about metal toxicity.

So I guess there are no good choices.

This was your daily dose of doom. Sorry to go off on a rant there @alex_uk

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He’s also eating a lot of peanut butter, like multiple jars a week, and that’s another big offender when it comes to high omega 6’s.

Grassfed dairy tends to be a great source of omega 3’s; that could be an option. Milk is obvious, along with cottage cheese and greek yogurt; in the UK he probably has access to quark and skyr, too.

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Super interesting, and I don’t want to turn @alex_uk’s log into a cholesterol debate symposium, but I do like your explanations.

I think the Omega 6:3 suboptimal ratios and corresponding metabolic disease in the Western diet is well-established - totally onboard with you there.

Conventionally-raised chicken as a major culprit is not something I’ve really hear or considered, but there’s no reason for me to really doubt or take that one on. I think your reasoning is sound. I will say, for sake of argument (I suppose I can’t help myself), the standard bodybuilder diet is going to be chicken breast… I think it would be relatively easy (compared to other foods) to “beat” that fat ratio with higher-quality fats. This becomes largely semantics, though, because I’m going to say add a bunch of avocado or fish oil or fatty fish, and you’ll easily counter with a common sense “why not just eat the grass-fed beef to begin with?”… which was the whole point, so touche.

What is interesting, and I probably differ in theory but not practical advice, is the thoughts around LDL accumulation. You’re 100% correct that LDL is there to go heal injury. The theory of athersclerotic cascade to which I’m most likely to prescribe differs slightly here, though. Yes, we likely produce more LDL to heal inflammation, but we’ve got LDL floating around in the bloodstream, anyway. It also becomes a question of “so what” (doesn’t everything?). Like I’m totally fine to have a serum level of 96 running around in there, but when I eat a dessert (typically a bigger deal even than our crappy fats!) and hit 103 I’m going to die unless we get that statin intervention in me right now? Obviously not. So the LDL itself is not the problem, it’s the plaque buildup (that calcifies, restricts arterial blood flow, and ultimately leads to thrombus formation or ischemia). So now we can talk about “well, how does that form? That’s what I care about.” Right we are!

So what am I actually trying to say? It’s LDL’s impact that matters. So our little LDLs are floating around in our bloodstream looking for problems to solve (as you pointed out, they are there to help our inflamed little bodies). Think of them as little ambulances looking for car crashes to go help. Those car crashes are arterial insults - microtears, deformations, etc. We don’t want a microtrauma to eventually become a dissection, obviously, because we’ll bleed to death. Our little LDL ambulances go plug that hole, to prevent that problem. In doing so, though, they begin the atherosclerotic cascade - we’ve got a spot for other cholesterols to attach, we begin to form plaque, harden, calcify, restrict, etc.

Bringing all that home, we now get to “what do I do?” That’s where my whole diabtribe becomes simply academic, because we have the same practical recommendations: don’t eat crap. I would argue that garbage sugars are every bit as concerning as Omega 6:3 ratios, because they do seem to cause arterial insult, but your diet recommendations takes care of that anyway.

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Nope nope. I try not to be the carnivore zealot there, and I’ve heard mixed thoughts on the amount of Omega 3s you can get from beef. I know Stan Efferding brings that up. He’s big on grassfed beef, but not as an Omega 3 source. I feel like pastured eggs are a good pick there though. Avocado, not as much. And in theory, I would LOVE for fatty fish to be the pick, but again, my concern is with how polluted our water ways have become. In the absence of human interference, fatty fish would be baller. But in regards to the chicken breasts, it’s one of those where, when eaten in a reasonable amount, I agree it will be of little concern, but the issue is that bodybuilders DON’T eat things in reasonable amounts. Similar to my experience with eating plants and experiencing toxicity there: when we push beyond the threshold of reason, we experience the toxicity.

From what you wrote about LDL, I don’t think we differ at all. I’m 100% on board. I’m not concerned with LDL amount: I’m concerned about inflammation and plaque, just as you wrote done. And I only bring up the Omega 6s because I was keying in specifically on the chicken in Alex’s diet plan, but yeah, absolutely, controlling sugar/junk intake is going to be big.

Really, the biggest win is eliminating hyper-processed food. That’s going to solve a LOT of issues. But, from there, we run into the issue that we’re on a bodybuilding/meathead website, and so we’re the type of folks that can overconsume “healthy” foods. Just like people love to say “No one got fat eating fruit” and I’ll be over in the corner saying “Hold my apple” while I go and eat 3000 calories of blueberries. I imagine the real end conclusion is that there’s no way to be healthy AND extreme at the same time: if you want a bigger than “regulation size” physique, or greater than average strength, it’s going to come at a cost of being not optimally healthy. Optimal health most likely is a standard BMI, with enough muscle to deadlift bodyweight and get up off the floor if you fall down, and enough cardio to be able to walk a few miles and not be in pain.

@alex_uk I hope you’re ok with what we’ve done in your log here, haha. If you’d like, I can use admin powers to move this.

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Totally fair. I shouldn’t have put words in your mouth. I was using “you” instead of “one” to debate myself.

In any case, I don’t think we’re overly misaligned on the point: instead of adding a bunch of other foods to get the fats, it’s likely fair to say “why not start with a higher-quality food in the first place?,” which I took to be at least some of your original point.

Fair all around on Omega 3 sources. I think we’re both really saying it likely more comes down to:

It’s awesome to get more of the good stuff in, but just as important, if not importanter, to not dig the ditch in the first place!

Awesome! Sometimes I think it just matters to throw it out there, because we all tend to get concerned about a single health marker on a blood panel in a vacuum, but it’s actually the consequence we care about vs. the indicator itself. And then, other times, we should just care about the indicator (I can’t think of any awesome reasons BP should be high and we ignore it, for instance).

I think this is the crux of it! I think, as we get into practical recommendations, it’s about mitigating consequence and tradeoffs. Like maybe I’m happy at 205 and don’t need to push to 240, etc. I’m overconsuming chicken, so I’m going to be super-clean about sugars, and on and on.

Same! Sorry about that. When the cool discussion opportunities strike, though, I can’t not jump!

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Just a quick one to say more than happy for the discussion, and any pretty much any relevant or even off topic stuff, I’m not precious and this particular discussion is great, I’ll read in full later.

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11/12/24 - PM

45M W1 B3 D11

Strength
Deficit banded deads (reds): 60, 80, 100, 120, 140, 160kg x 4
S/s
Plate uppercuts: 10kg x 5 e/s x 4 sets

Volume
Deficit deads: 120kg x 3 x 10 EMOM

Finisher:
Chin ups: bw, 5, 10, 15, 10, 5kg x 6, bw x 10
Dips: 10, 20, 30, 35, 30, 20, 10kg x 6

Top set:

I was going to call it at 140kg, last session with bands, left me slightly odd kilter back wise, so was cautious coming in, felt great on the way up but 140kg felt pretty heavy, but hey 140kg never feels light it’s probably 70% of 1rm without bands and this was with bands, so yea got my heads straight and went for it. The deficit here is probably a bit daft, but it works reckon 3"+. It’s a thick bumper plate and just so happens to be on a mat that is bar width so that the plates are ok concrete and the bar over the rubber.

In the volume I decided to drop bands for the volume, two reasons, primarily fatigue, then watching the video I saw how much bands throw off my technique, I’ve been (I think) getting better at making deadlifts a single movement, with everything working in unison, this looked to me like going back to the movement being two distinct stages.

Having already had a grumpy back last week I decided to keep the volume bandless, lower rep and lower % (still within the rx but without the bands).

Volume was better focused back on grooving the movement, keeping it in unison.

Finisher - solid, upped reps across the board, will push reps before any increases in weight.

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I hate to be devil’s advocate here but the more I read about this, the less I am convinced. Even the major distributors like Vital Farms still supplement their hens with corn and soy feed, totally defeating the purpose. There are also a lot of loopholes where they are allowed to keep the hens indoors if it’s for their safety, but they can still call it “pasture raised”. Luckily I have found a few brands that are corn free/soy free, but they are even more expensive.

It’s why I’ve personally scaled back slightly on my egg consumption and started upping the grass-fed dairy to compensate.

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Yeah, I’m going a bit “no true scotsman” on it, wherein I"m defining pastured to specifically mean ones that AREN’T getting that very feed, but it’s getting harder to find unless you can actually get the hookup with a farmer.

Grassfed dairy is absolutely wonderful. I’m such a sucker for ghee. Good shout out there!

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12/12/24 - evening

45M W1 B3 D13

Farmers: 50kg per hand 65ft up drop return x 10 sets EMOM

Chin: 5 x 10 sets EMOM

Sandbag loads: 75kg X 3 x 10 sets EMOM

Farmers lighter and fast, chins were a variety of grips, sandbags were heavy with lower reps, good session, absolutely blitzed after that and deadlifts yesterday.

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Will be coming back to the nutrition conversation soon, but for now.

13/12/24 - PM

45M W1 B3 D12

Strength
Banded OHP red bands: 20, 40, 50kg x 5, 60kg x 3, 55kg x 5
S/s hanging leg raises: 5 x 5 sets

Volume
Banded OHP red bands: 35kg x 5 x 10 sets EMOM

Done.

Came in to this knowing fatigue was high, but knowing I won’t get chance for the next 2 days, so got the main work done and chose to sack off the assistance before even stepping foot in the gym, good choice.

Probably knew 60kg was too heavy before I attempted it, based on the 50kg, did it anyway, then did what should have been my original top set 55kg.

Used a different band set up than previous, using an idea from @T3hPwnisher from about a year ago (first time I’ve used it, because I’ve got band pegs on the rack):

Bought the hex DBs specifically for this reason, finally used it, thanks as always for the lifting wisdom you bring to the forum.

Volume was perfect, despite feeling easy at the start by the end I was toast.

Done in jeans and a hoodie with no sweat broken, some advantage to cold weather and short sessions.

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I was waiting for something awful to happen from here, haha. Glad the DBs worked out dude! I learned that from Westside/Dave Tate.

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Alright some of my thoughts on the nutrition conversation, my caveat - I’m entirely uneducated in this area, I used to read about it a lot but that just made me think/parrot other people’s thoughts and ideas, and I saw that even the ideas I thought solid seemed to be changed and debunked over the years, so I’ve largely stopped reading about it and generally fall to this - if it’s natural and we’ve eaten it as a species for millennia I’ll be alright (you know when I’m being sensible and not eating like an unfettered 5 year old).

As to the meat discussion, I can definitely see the argument for beef over chicken on the ruminant Vs monogastric lines, particularly here in the UK where standards of welfare are observably better for cows Vs chickens. That is a strong argument for eating more beef less chicken.

I suppose my question is, if I’m primarily eating chicken breast, and it’s essentially fat free, then I supplement with omega 3s, and eat a few lbs of beef mince a week, and a few dozen decent quality eggs per week, will switching to beef make a significant difference?

Now I also recognise I’m asking something that no one here can answer for me, the joy of biology right? That leaves two things - 1. I’m asking for and happy to receive speculation, 2. I’m thinking to run and experiment on myself here and run a couple of blood works with a chicken heavy Vs beef heavy diet.

Thanks @TrainForPain @T3hPwnisher @BrandonCrawford or the conversation - @Stormblessed - I noticed you having a similar conversation, tagging you incase you’re interested, @QuadQueen I noticed you didn’t join in with the conversation, always happy for your thoughts as well, if you’re happy to give them (don’t mind if they contradict everything else).

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