I find this is frequently a result of having feet too far apart on the lift in an attempt to “squat” the weight off the floor. The irony is that one does this to try to spare the back but, in doing so, they’re unable to get their hips under their shoulders at the start of the lift, which puts the bar forward and puts more stress on the lower back. When feet are closer together with toes angled out, it’s easier to get the weight of the bar back at the start, see-saw it up, and spare the back.
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Funny enough I had just watched Brian Alsruhe saying the same thing earlier in the week, I had my feet reasonably close together with this in mind.
But this:
Is spot on.
Where I am when I first touch the bar:
To where I am when I initiate the pull are quite different:
And neither are hips under shoulders.
Perfect freeze frame to highlight what I was talking about with your knees. Ypur shoulders are actually behind the bar here.
Pwn’s comment was spot on as well about stance with and squat intentions.
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So am I wanting shoulders more over the bar and hips higher?
My feet are inside shoulder width, are we thinking bring them in even more?
Hard to say from that particular angle, but I think you could bring them in a touch closer. I like narrower than shoulder width.
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I would say inside shoulder width is fine for the stance. Although there are personal preferences.
You want your shoulders over or more precisely slightly in front of the bar.
Right now you have kind of a two part movement going on because you need to maneuver the weight around your knees and you actually kick the bar away from you, pulling your centre of gravity forward, which again ironically puts more strain on your lower back.
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That makes sense, I wondered why the movement looked like a 2 parter that explains it.
I’ll try and record again next time, I’ll have to rejig the garage and try and get a proper side angle to film from (garage is too narrow for it the way I’m currently set up).
Great, I’ll give that a try.
Thanks to both of you for the help!
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Just to throw it out there because it was a game changer for my deadlifts, quit looking at it as a single hinge point and look at your body as a lever. I hate physics… but I also genuinely studied levers to figure the deadlift out.
And take this with a grain of salt, not everyone likes this opinion on deadlifting, but for me I ended up giving myself more minor tweaks by trying to fight my body for a neutral spine position in deads, not saying catback is the way but along with figuring out the proper lever position for myself on deads I started pulling with a rounded upper back when my deadlift made the biggest jump!
Not a change to be made overnight, I ran a 4 week cycle of very light deadlifts for “Speed” and a lot of specific upper back work in order to get my body used to producing force in the position I was looking for and keeping it injury free (I.E. Rounded upper back and better lever)
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Thanks for the input Brett, I don’t think rounded upper back is too controversial these days and I wouldn’t be too concerned about that (probably wouldn’t specifically train to achieve that, but if I found it helpful who know?).
My only concern is my lower back, I’ve had problems in the past and my dad’s got some serious permanent problems (blown discs foot droop and siatica) and my sister has had 2 surgeries for back issues, I’m keen to keep my back healthy.
Interesting thoughts about the whole body lever Vs hinge difference. I’ve been doing some “practice” throughout the day (like those golfers who fake swing every 5 mins). Think I might actually understand things a little better next time I hit deads, definitely feel like I finally get the push the floor away cue, but we’ll see, everything changes when there is weight on the bar.
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Daily dose day 1:
Coffee then 10 min run at 6.5mph (first thing out of bed wanted to make sure I wasn’t deadlifting cold - I remember @Frank_C saying something about fluid in discs in the morning being why lifting early feels crap - I assumed that running would sort it out, it works).
Deads:
60, 100, 120, 120 X 2, 120kg X 1 X 3 sets
(Remembered I was supposed to be pulling singles).
60kg
100kg
Set 1
Set 2
Set 3
Set 4
Didn’t record set 5 - did 5 chin ups between each set which I’ll keep, easy and doesn’t tax me, good bit of additional daily work.
Set 4 seemed like the best from a purely how it felt at the time perspective, annoyed that I forgot to record 5. Thoughts and critique welcome - sorry I didn’t change the camera angle, need to move th garage around and that’ll take longer than I had, and recorded it sideways (mornings are not my thing).
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So it looks like you’ve embarked on a 30-day plan of low-volume, daily deadlifts? I saw the percentages above, is it 5 singles every day? Or fewer on the 90%+ days?
Will you be doing much else? (Not that pullups and a mile jog aren’t enough; tbh it looks like plenty!)
Finally, are the percentages based on a 531-style TM, actual max, or a desired goal max?
Glad to see the jog got everything ready to go.
It’s 3-5 singles five days a week. You get to choose when you have a day off. I used my “max”, but not my PR. I have built up to some decent PRs but they aren’t “any day of the week” weights. I tried to pick my current “any day of the week” max similar to 5/3/1.
It’s still 3-5 singles on the heavier days.
@alex_uk I watched sets 3 and 4 and your hip positioning looked good in that it didn’t change. The only thing I noticed was more of a personal preference thing - you seem to reach down, grab the bar, lower your hips, and then pull pretty quickly. That’s fine if you’re comfortable with it. For me, I will “jerk” the bar if I do that. It works for lighter weights, but not for heavy singles. If I rush then my hips shoot up because I’m not fully braced and ready to go.
Again, that’s a personal preference thing and not necessarily a critique. I just wanted to share it since you’re trying to avoid bad habits and bad reps.
@jdm135 , in terms of programming, this replaces your deadlift work but you can do everything else like normal. For this phase, I would say that the deadlift is a priority since it’s getting the specialization program. If other lower body training has a negative carry over effect to the deadlift work then I’d suggest backing off a bit on the other leg days.
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Thanks for the answer there @Frank_C.
Whilst it’s supposed to be a 45 day thing, but I’ll do it as long as needed, for me it’s just practice at doing deadlifts and nailing down some sort of form.
3-5 singles at 75%, I presumed of max, but for me I’m going off max that I could lift comfortably with good form - which was 160kg - so 120kg every day, I’m not doing it for strength gains so not fussed about going heavier (although more than happy if they come).
In terms of other stuff, I’ll be basically keeping my 3 days - I do a squat day, bench day and a deadlift and ohp day - not sure what I’ll do for deads may start doing block pulls with conventional stance, or maybe just swings. Also like Frank said if the leg work starts getting too much I’ll switch up the squat stuff.
That work is 15 mins of low intensity lifting and a jog to warm up, so shouldn’t tax me too much I hope.
It’s the way I’ve always done it, but that doesn’t mean it’s optimal, years ago I heard that you can still slightly utilise stretch flex by doing it that way and it’s just been so practiced that I struggle to pause and slow it down now.
Yea I think it’s worth pointing out, I’m probably not getting slack out and like you say be good to ingrain the right stuff early on.
Yea they were more comfortable, I think recording and watching back immediately before each set will help drill the best position for me, but took a few sets to even get vaguely comfortable, not sure why sumo is so much more comfortable for me.
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You can and I do. I get set, drop my hips, prepare to pull, then I shoot my hips up and bring them back down quickly and then pull. The difference between my approach and what I saw in your video is that I’m braced and ready to pull before I do that instead of doing it all in one motion.
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Day 2 of daily dose
10 min run at 6.5mph - very much treating this as a warm up, which is important otherwise it’ll end up with competitive progression and completely go against the intent, just reminding myself of that.
Deads:
60kg X some
100kg X 1
120kg X 5 singles
Chins 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6
Going to just add 1 per set per day just to build additional work in, 1 per day will ramp relatively quickly so might pull that back at some pointif it negatively impacts the point of this session - good reps on deads
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Day 3 of daily dose:
Run: 10 mins @ 6.5mph
Deads: 60 X some, 100 X 1, 120kg X 1 X 5 sets
Chins: 5 X 5 sets, 6 X 2 sets
Deads continue to feel awkward and borderline painful in the lower back, not to the point of thinking that I’m doing any long term damage but still not feeling right, I’m resolute about learning to conventional, this is frustrating though on video I can’t see any reason why, even though maybe not optimal, my current dead form would cause me such discomfort and why trap bar deads are fine.
I did a powerclean after deads today because they usually don’t cause any aggravation, back was already a bit annoyed so didn’t feel great but recorded it to see if there was any difference in starting position, see if my body knows something I don’t. I’ll upload stuff later.
This week I think all I’ll get time for is the daily dose stuff, all 3 of my jobs are seriously demanding from me right now and I’d rather squeeze training than family.
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Hang in there Alex! It comes in waves. You’ll get a lull when you really need one.
Remind me please, since I don’t keep up with 30+ posts/day lol, do you have a placement atm?
If so, how’s it going? If not, are you on standby for one?
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Sorry to hear that. You said that RDL’s feel fine. that’s strange to me. Try starting from the top. Do an RDL. Next, hinge like you’re doing an RDL and then lower the bar to the ground in a controlled manner (simulating a deadlift eccentric). Lastly, after lowering the bar, do a light touch n go and then stand up again for a rep of an official deadlift. Record all of this and look for differences and similarities.
If you can RDL then you can hinge. I wonder if you’re dropping your hips too much for your deadlift and it gets you into a new position. The deadlift ought to be very similar to your RDL.
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Great suggestion thanks Frank, I’ll post up vids of today’s work and do my daily dose as RDLs tomorrow!
Thanks, definitely one of those busy waves (I do it to myself, just dive headfirst into everything and end up flat out then laugh about it with my wife and say we might be quite one day, as soon as it looks like the next week might be quite we catch up on all the stuff we need to do and end up just as busy). But this wave will ease very soon.
Fortunately no placement right now, would have made life a little too hectic! On standby and hopefully have one mid March (when stuff calms down!)
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