ALERT! Bad Supplement Bill

Nutrition
81

[quote]derek wrote:
I couldn’t care less about what you contribute to society as I’m sure no one else here does but if bragging makes you fell better…

I’m a small business owner. I and millions of others like me (along with our hard-working employees) are the rails that keep this country on the right track.

The problem is that it’s mostly people that think they know better than the general public, that they know what’s best for us, that they know how to run our lives that get into office year after year.

The people like me and a few others in this thread believe that in general, the individual is perfectly capable of taking care of themselves.

I don’t know about you but I haven’t had a babysitter for a very long time and I certainly don’t need someone like you looking out for my “best interests”.[/quote]

I think you may have misunderstood my intentions all along in this thread.

Let me clarify- as I feel it necessary. I don’t think the government has a right to tell you how to run your business. Not overall. I do think it has a right to create policies, like the no smoking and no trans-fat ones, where it deems necessary to protect certain people not only from themselves, but from the carelessness of others.

I also agree with TDC earlier about the progression thing, however I don’t necessarily agree with his timelines. I don’t think we’ll go from where we are now to enslavement any time soon. I have this viewpoint specifically because none of the laws created have ever affected me personally.

I don’t smoke, I hate people who do. I don’t eat, or really try not to, trans fat. I always wear my seatbelt. I speed, but don’t get tickets. I own the guns I want to and have never had an issue getting them. Yes I can see how if you enjoy doing things the government has deemed wrong, then you would have a problem with it.

I don’t feel it’s my duty to protect your rights. That is our main difference. Is it a short-sided view? I’m sure it is. I don’t care. We all live and we all die, I’ll just go through it all with less stress since I don’t worry about what the government is doing to you.

You said earlier that the problem is people like me. Well that’s not true. People like me just don’t give a damn. It’s the people that do give a damn and still have opposing viewpoints to yours that are causing your problems.

82

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
I don’t feel it’s my duty to protect your rights. That is our main difference. Is it a short-sided view? I’m sure it is. I don’t care. We all live and we all die, I’ll just go through it all with less stress since I don’t worry about what the government is doing to you.

You said earlier that the problem is people like me. Well that’s not true. People like me just don’t give a damn. It’s the people that do give a damn and still have opposing viewpoints to yours that are causing your problems.[/quote]

My only issue with this is that it is the duty of the society to protect everyone in the societies rights. I may not agree with your choices, but I will defend to the death if need be, your right to make them.

There was a WWII era quote where a religious leader didn’t speak out against the germans when they came for one group, because he was in another group. After the original group was gone, they came for another group other than his and took them. The leader still didn’t act because it wasn’t his group. Long story short, when they came for him, there was no one left to defend him.

83

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:
There was a WWII era quote where a religious leader didn’t speak out against the germans when they came for one group, because he was in another group. After the original group was gone, they came for another group other than his and took them. The leader still didn’t act because it wasn’t his group. Long story short, when they came for him, there was no one left to defend him. [/quote]

“In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.” - Martin Niemoeller

84

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
eengrms76 wrote:
I agree Mike.

Actually smoking was a really bad example for the topic of this thread, because it does affect others.

Seat belts would be a better example of something mandated rather than giving the individual a choice.

Seat belt laws are a funny thing because ultimately people who don’t wear them cause our insurance premiums to increase. Here’s my proposal: If a cop pulls you over and you’re not wearing a seat belt you get a “no penalty” ticket - no fine, no points on your license. However, your violation gets reported to your insurance company which then raises your rates. It’s the perfect free market solution. You still have a choice as to whether or not you wear a seat belt, but you will ultimately pay for your risky behavior through increased insurance premiums while those of us who wear seat belts can enjoy lower premiums. Same reason why I think the government should tax the hell out of cigarettes. Smoke all you want, but 20, 30, 40 years from now don’t make the taxpayers foot the bill for your oxygen tank that you’ll need to drag around because you have lung cancer or emphysema. And don’t give me some BS that this is unfair and that there’s no proven health risk to smoking. When you apply for life insurance, the main determinant of your premium, aside from age, is whether you’re a smoker or non-smoker. Smoker’s, of course, pay more. The free market says that smokers are at a higher risk of death than non-smokers. If we could somehow incorporate this same risk analysis into government health benefits things would be fairer for the taxpayers. Thus ends my libertarian rant.[/quote]

Libertarian rant? That is exactly the opposite of libertarian. A libertarian would never say the answer is for the government to tax a product to discourage its use. A libertarian wants the government to stay out of it and let the market sort it out.

If the insurance companies can find a way to charge higher premiums to smokers, more power to them. And smokers can decide if they want to pay those rates or not. If the insurance companies cannot find a way to do it, then too bad. Either way, the government should not interfere. Same with your seat belt example.

Increasing taxes never solves any social problems, it simply gives the government more control over the people.

Penn Jillette had a great point about this recently. A few months ago, there were TV ads being run encouraging people to not drink and drive. These were sponsored and paid for by tax dollars.

As Penn said, we probably all agree that there should be laws against things such as drinking and driving, and you should be punished if you are caught drunk driving. What is not acceptable, is using tax dollars to try and influence behavior, such as these commercials. That is called “social engineering” and is not a good thing in any way.

Now there’s a libertarian rant.

85

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:

There are obviously more people who think like me then there are that think like you, otherwise the law wouldn’t exist.[/quote]

This line of thinking reminds me of a quote from Warren Buffet:

“People agreeing with you does not make you correct. Having your facts right, and having your reasoning right is what makes you correct. If you have your facts right, and your reasoning is correct, then it doesn’t matter what other people think”.

Statements like this show why he built himself from nothing into the second richest man in the world. Along your line of thinking, he may have become a civil servant.

86

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
I don’t feel it’s my duty to protect your rights. That is our main difference. Is it a short-sided view? I’m sure it is. I don’t care. We all live and we all die, I’ll just go through it all with less stress since I don’t worry about what the government is doing to you.[/quote]

Normally I avoid discussions like this and rarely post as I just don’t feel a need to try and convince anyone that my views are somehow better than theirs and that they should adopt them! They aren’t, and they shouldn’t!

I do take a bit of exception to this comment though, as a former Marine at 18 years of age I swore an oath to defend the US and it’s constitution against all enemies forgien and domestic. I gave up ALL my constitutional rights to do this for our country, as every member of our armed services has done.

Maybe you don’t give a shit about my rights, but I would defend with my life yours. Your attitude is why this coutry is headed down the road it is, and why our individual rights are getting stompped on by the “new laws” being passed for “our protection”. They get passed just because no one gives a shit about anyone elses rights but theirs. The true “I Me” society.

When will you give a shit about my rights when someone steps on yours? It also find it odd that men and women in our armed forces and our forefathers died just to give unapprecitave folks like you the right to not care about anyone elses rights but theirs. But like I said I may not agree with you, but I would defend with my life your right to have your selfish view toward others.

While I’m at it I’d also like to add that from my point of view eengrms76 you come across as a very niave person, you keep running on about how the government is protecting the people with it’s laws, and it has this duty to do, to protect us. Your argument might make sense to someone that belives as you do that the government is working to protect it’s citizens. While I view most conspiracy theories with healthy skeptisism, I am not niave enough to believe that our government is working on our behalf.

I believe it was vroom that stated earlier that it is not about conspiracies, it is about money. Plain and simple and if you doubt it then you need to educate yourself as to the facts not the sensation that is sold to us in the media. Look who sits on the boards of most of the major pharmaceutical companies, our politicians, Rummy was CEO of Searle Corporation before it was bought by Monsanto (I think), Bush Sr. sits on the board of Ely Lilly Corp. those are just 2, the list gets way too long for this post.

It is flat out about money and linning their pockets. They are flat out uninterested in protecting us in the least, and if you think that the FDA is here to protect us then why the hell did they put Nutra Sweet on the market? The baseball pitcher that died from Ephedra that was the big news when they banned it, did anyone look into the fact that he drank 5 diet sodas that day?

Does anyone bring up the fact that the shit is a Neuro Excitotoxin and interacts with and heightens the effects of any other drugs in the body, and can cause heart arythmia? Did they move to ban Aspertame? No instead they ban ephedra…Oh but they did it to protect us!!! Get a clue bro!!

And the smoking ban is another case in point. Give me a break they don’t care about people being affected by second hand smoke. Here in Colorado is a case in point, they banned it in resturants and bars, but they left the Casinos in Blackhawk and Central City alone.

Why, they generate huge tax revenues for the state, can’t piss them off!! It is about control and money, plain and simple, the medical industry and the pharmaceutical industry are big business, they don’t make money off of healthy people eating natural foods and supplements.

derek vroom and uberswank are right, what is being forced on us is basically socialism, not a free enterprise system.

Thomas Jefferson stated that for democracy to succeed it required an infomred educated people. In my opinion, democracy is failing in the US, and my opinion is that it this is the exact point as to why, people are uninformed believe that the government is here to protect us, and really don’t give a shit about anyone but themselves.

Thanks for expressing your view points, you have every right to do so!!

87

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
I don’t feel it’s my duty to protect your rights. That is our main difference. Is it a short-sided view? I’m sure it is. I don’t care. We all live and we all die, I’ll just go through it all with less stress since I don’t worry about what the government is doing to you.[/quote]

Almost forgot to mention, I work night shift and it is 3:36am MT, and I won’t be able to read and responses until tomorrow night. Have a happy sunday!! I’ll be sleeping for the day after a 12 hour night shift.

88

[quote]starsil9 wrote:
eengrms76 wrote:
I don’t feel it’s my duty to protect your rights. That is our main difference. Is it a short-sided view? I’m sure it is. I don’t care. We all live and we all die, I’ll just go through it all with less stress since I don’t worry about what the government is doing to you.

Almost forgot to mention, I work night shift and it is 3:36am MT, and I won’t be able to read and responses until tomorrow night. Have a happy sunday!! I’ll be sleeping for the day after a 12 hour night shift.

[/quote]

Thank you (as sincerely as I can make it sound in print) for your service to our country!

And these last few posts are right on.

89

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
You said earlier that the problem is people like me. Well that’s not true. People like me just don’t give a damn. It’s the people that do give a damn and still have opposing viewpoints to yours that are causing your problems.[/quote]

I’d rather debate opposing viewpoints 'till I’m blue in the face than to face the fact that lazy people with lazy minds such as yourself actually exist.

90

To all my “haters” in this thread. It’s a very sad fact that there are very few people in this country that think like you do. I’m very sure the country would be a much better place it more people did think like you, no doubt. I appreciate your viewpoints and just hope you respect mine. I am not a lazy person and when push comes to shove I defend what is necessary to defend. The phrase “pick your battles” is a mantra I live by. I have just yet to come across one I feel the need to pick. You all say you’re pissed about this and pissed about that, but what are you doing about it besides arguing on a message board? (with the exception of the guy in the military)

Really? What good does it do to argue here about it? I’m sure if I looked deep down inside of me I probably think more like you than I care to admit, I just simply don’t let the stuff bother me. That doesn’t make me lazy, it makes me calm. And to the guy who said it’s all about money and not protecting us- you are probably right. But money still doesn’t equate to what these other guys are saying with their theories that the government is just trying to control us and overpower everyone.

The bottomline is the government “thinks” they are doing a good thing and they are trying to make money so they can pay for their military and their own salaries. It really doesn’t go much deeper than that.

91

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:
To all my “haters” in this thread. It’s a very sad fact that there are very few people in this country that think like you do. I’m very sure the country would be a much better place it more people did think like you, no doubt. I appreciate your viewpoints and just hope you respect mine. I am not a lazy person and when push comes to shove I defend what is necessary to defend. The phrase “pick your battles” is a mantra I live by. I have just yet to come across one I feel the need to pick. You all say you’re pissed about this and pissed about that, but what are you doing about it besides arguing on a message board? (with the exception of the guy in the military)

Really? What good does it do to argue here about it? I’m sure if I looked deep down inside of me I probably think more like you than I care to admit, I just simply don’t let the stuff bother me. That doesn’t make me lazy, it makes me calm. And to the guy who said it’s all about money and not protecting us- you are probably right. But money still doesn’t equate to what these other guys are saying with their theories that the government is just trying to control us and overpower everyone.

The bottomline is the government “thinks” they are doing a good thing and they are trying to make money so they can pay for their military and their own salaries. It really doesn’t go much deeper than that.[/quote]

You’re probably right. We most likely think more alike than not.

I like to think that by putting forth our opinions, backed up by facts, it at the very least makes others think. I spread my beliefs all over the place. I discuss politics whenever I get the chance. I know I’m not always right either.

If people can be swayed, enlightened or encouraged to learn the facts by my debates/discussions, then I’m happy to be contributing. If one person votes with a better understanding of the issues, I feel good.

If you look in the Undeniable Cholesterol Data thread, I’ve put some of what I understand in there. If one person can see my side of that issue and becomes healthier as a result I feel great. If one disagrees, that’s fine but we all are made better by deep thinking.

92

[quote]derek wrote:
You’re probably right. We most likely think more alike than not.

I like to think that by putting forth our opinions, backed up by facts, it at the very least makes others think. I spread my beliefs all over the place. I discuss politics whenever I get the chance. I know I’m not always right either.

If people can be swayed, enlightened or encouraged to learn the facts by my debates/discussions, then I’m happy to be contributing. If one person votes with a better understanding of the issues, I feel good.

If you look in the Undeniable Cholesterol Data thread, I’ve put some of what I understand in there. If one person can see my side of that issue and becomes healthier as a result I feel great. If one disagrees, that’s fine but we all are made better by deep thinking.
[/quote]

I’m from DC. We live this stuff on a daily basis. However, my viewpoint is well in the minority areound here.

Another quote I will leave you guys with on this one.

“I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

93

[quote]tassie wrote:
“In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.” - Martin Niemoeller[/quote]

Thank you for posting this. I couldn’t remember the name of the speaker to save my life.

94

[quote]derek wrote:
starsil9 wrote:
eengrms76 wrote:
I don’t feel it’s my duty to protect your rights. That is our main difference. Is it a short-sided view? I’m sure it is. I don’t care. We all live and we all die, I’ll just go through it all with less stress since I don’t worry about what the government is doing to you.

Almost forgot to mention, I work night shift and it is 3:36am MT, and I won’t be able to read and responses until tomorrow night. Have a happy sunday!! I’ll be sleeping for the day after a 12 hour night shift.

Thank you (as sincerely as I can make it sound in print) for your service to our country!

And these last few posts are right on.
[/quote]

Thanks derek I sincerely appreciate the sentiment, however I’m no longer an active Marine, so please give your thanks to those active duty personel that greatly deserve it!!!

95

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:
“I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”[/quote]

I 100% agree!!!

96

[quote]derek wrote:

Bill threatens to make supps on par with prescription drugs. Yikes. Sign petition![/quote]

Also it says that it will make the adverse reaction reporting system harder than it already is.

97

[quote]derek wrote:
eengrms76 wrote:
There are obviously more people who think like me then there are that think like you, otherwise the law wouldn’t exist.

No, it’s because people like you become beaurocrats and make asinine laws and regulations while people like me work for a living and keep the country running.[/quote]

agreed. you know what eengrms76 get off this website! if you are a symp for the FDA just leave.
beacuse i don’t want to here this Drug company propaganda filled shit that your trying to shove down our throats