Airline Safety

"My proposal is always the same: each airline should be responsible for their own security and then individuals can choose to pay higher fares to fly with airlines with better security measures or choose to pay lower fairs and fly with airlines with fewer security measures. The response I get to this proposal is always the same: I donâ??t know about that.

It seems to be embedded in peopleâ??s psyche, almost genetically, that the federal government is in fact the only entity in our country that can and should do certain things for us and the broken logic associated with this thinking boggles my mind.

First of all, what incentive does any TSA worker have to ensure our safety? If you work for the federal government you have a job for life and beyond just as long as you donâ??t quit because you will never get fired, especially if you are a minority working for the TSA. The TSA according, to John F. Kennedyâ??s executive order 10925, is legally obligated to work to affirmatively retain minorities not fire them.

This, of course, is not the case if airlines were responsible for their own security. People get fired from private companies all the time and if those responsible were found to be negligent in their work and costing the company economic losses then they would be fired and someone else brought on to replace them."

You’re a really annoying poster, and I wouldn’t have opened this if I would have realized you posted it,

BUT,

I agree with this.

For the most part this is an absolutely horrible idea. You can’t allow certain people to have loose standards and others to have high standards when it comes to safety. FFS, this isn’t affecting one person this is affecting hundreds to potentially thousands of people per flight. If something goes wrong where is that plane going? Take off is optional but landing is mandatory so are we just supposed to hope and pray all the problems happen over non-populated areas and the ocean?

You guys need to start thinking before you speak.

Now if you want to argue that TSA is a fucking joke I’ll agree with you.

When have companies NOT cut corners when it comes to safety if they were allowed to? Everyone is so short-sighted that they only look at the money saved right now and not at the huge potential of catastrophic losses they will have later. Safety and safety standards are pretty much the only thing the US government doesn’t completely fuck up and should have power over.

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
For the most part this is an absolutely horrible idea. You can’t allow certain people to have loose standards and others to have high standards when it comes to safety. FFS, this isn’t affecting one person this is affecting hundreds to potentially thousands of people per flight. If something goes wrong where is that plane going? Take off is optional but landing is mandatory so are we just supposed to hope and pray all the problems happen over non-populated areas and the ocean?

You guys need to start thinking before you speak.

Now if you want to argue that TSA is a fucking joke I’ll agree with you.

When have companies NOT cut corners when it comes to safety if they were allowed to? Everyone is so short-sighted that they only look at the money saved right now and not at the huge potential of catastrophic losses they will have later. Safety and safety standards are pretty much the only thing the US government doesn’t completely fuck up and should have power over.[/quote]

Agreed.

Oh, I also agree with DOH about HH being a really fuckin’ annoying poster.

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
For the most part this is an absolutely horrible idea. You can’t allow certain people to have loose standards and others to have high standards when it comes to safety. FFS, this isn’t affecting one person this is affecting hundreds to potentially thousands of people per flight. If something goes wrong where is that plane going? Take off is optional but landing is mandatory so are we just supposed to hope and pray all the problems happen over non-populated areas and the ocean?

You guys need to start thinking before you speak.

Now if you want to argue that TSA is a fucking joke I’ll agree with you.

When have companies NOT cut corners when it comes to safety if they were allowed to? Everyone is so short-sighted that they only look at the money saved right now and not at the huge potential of catastrophic losses they will have later. Safety and safety standards are pretty much the only thing the US government doesn’t completely fuck up and should have power over.[/quote]

This is actually nonsense.

The federal government could require mandatory minimum standards to land in the US and then get the fuck out of the way.

See?

Problem fixed.

That was easy.

You are a victim of the very mindset described in that article.

you cant be serious…The 9/11 terrorist attacks did not kill just few hundred people on board the air planes but the planes were used as a weapon to kill 3000 more. You suggest that terrorists will only harm those in the plane not possible hundreds more. My logic…grasped by many a simple person is undeniable.

[quote]Petermus wrote:
you cant be serious…The 9/11 terrorist attacks did not kill just few hundred people on board the air planes but the planes were used as a weapon to kill 3000 more. You suggest that terrorists will only harm those in the plane not possible hundreds more. My logic…grasped by many a simple person is undeniable.[/quote]

Well, how is that working for you so far?

Because the way I see it any retard with a one way ticket, no luggage and a bomb in his underpants can get on board of a plane headed to the US, even if his father, a top banker, no less, goes to the American embassy to warn that his son has gone off the deep end.

Granted, the diabolical, unforseeable twist consisted of hiding the bomb in his pants and not in his shoes, everything else was the exact MO of the shoe bomber. WHo could have possibly be prepared for that !?!

I think it is time for the federal government to step to the side lines and let grown ups handle this.

The truth is we’re more likely to die from a car crash, cancer, whatever, than dieing in a plane crash. And having driven from NY to CA, I’ll get on that plane before driving anytime.

Agreed with orion.

The criminals and terrorists will always be a step ahead of the government when it comes to airline security, because they can scope out security procedures as long as they need to to find a hole in them, and they always will.

Last I checked, airlines were companies, just like any other company that sells its services. So just like any other organization, they should have minimum safety standards they must follow that are set by the government, and the rest is up to free market.

[quote]orion wrote:
I think it is time for the federal government to step to the side lines and let grown ups handle this.
[/quote]

I agree with this and the government has proved time and time again that they are both inefficient and borderline incompetent, not just w/ the TSA but also w/ intelligence.

A fair amount of intelligence operation is already outsourced to military contractors and I expect to see this increase, despite the fact that a fair amount of accountability and oversight is lost in the process.

all i know is that I always fly with something that can double as an impromptu weapon because I’'m not gonna be one of the fuckers that goes down without a fight to a bunch of uneducated turr’ists.

[quote]bugeishaAD wrote:
all i know is that I always fly with something that can double as an impromptu weapon because I’'m not gonna be one of the fuckers that goes down without a fight to a bunch of uneducated turr’ists.[/quote]

Word.

Brah if we ever fly together, them turr’ists gonna in for a nasty day. We’ll fuuuuuuck them up. After hitting the mandatory poses of course, for intimidation purposes.

here, lets make it simple

after living in finland for a year, and cruising the skies of europe a few times with my team, and when i found myself nervous walking into airports in germany and poland. the security was carrying assault rifles throughout the airport. and mind you they were very genial. Dobry wieczor and guten tag came out of their mouths often.

i like to think of it as another version of big stick diplomacy with terrorists. just a thought

[quote]chettync85 wrote:
the security was carrying assault rifles throughout the airport.[/quote]

THAT is what I call security. Same outside many schools in Guatemala…funny, you don’t hear of much school violence at those schools…

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
First of all, what incentive does any TSA worker have to ensure our safety? If you work for the federal government you have a job for life and beyond just as long as you donâ??t quit because you will never get fired, especially if you are a minority working for the TSA. The TSA according, to John F. Kennedyâ??s executive order 10925, is legally obligated to work to affirmatively retain minorities not fire them.
[/quote]

Why are they so anal about everything then? I’ve never seen such mindless sheep like the TSA workers. They follow procedures word for word without so much as a thought to that mystical power. What was it called again? Oh yeah, common sense.

The problem with individualized corporate security measures is that it is inefficient. Currently, you can have several security lines that are equal, with flexibility in worker training and placement.

If you modulize security, you would an Air Canada line, a United line, Delta line, AA line, etc… With each one having specific workers. You have an Air Canada ticket? Go wait in that long line. THAT ONE. No other.

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
So just like any other organization, they should have minimum safety standards they must follow that are set by the government, and the rest is up to free market. [/quote]
Yep, this sums up my thoughts nicely.

Good article in the WSJ about us fearing terrorist on planes.

* JANUARY 9, 2010

Undressing the Terror Threat
Running the numbers on the conflict with terrorists suggests that the rules of the game should change

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By PAUL CAMPOS

I’m not much of a basketball player. Middle-age, with a shaky set shot and a bad knee, I can’t hold my own in a YMCA pickup game, let alone against more organized competition. But I could definitely beat LeBron James in a game of one-on-one. The game just needs to feature two special rules: It lasts until I score, and when I score, I win.

We might have to play for a few days, and Mr. James’s point total could well be creeping toward five figures before the contest ended, but eventually the gritty gutty competitor with a lunch-bucket work ethic (me) would subject the world’s greatest basketball player to a humiliating defeat.

The world’s greatest nation seems bent on subjecting itself to a similarly humiliating defeat, by playing a game that could be called Terrorball. The first two rules of Terrorball are:

(1) The game lasts as long as there are terrorists who want to harm Americans; and

(2) If terrorists should manage to kill or injure or seriously frighten any of us, they win.
[W3Feature1] Photo illustration by John Kuczala
Read More

* Crunching the Risk Numbers 

These rules help explain the otherwise inexplicable wave of hysteria that has swept over our government in the wake of the failed attempt by a rather pathetic aspiring terrorist to blow up a plane on Christmas Day. For two weeks now, this mildly troubling but essentially minor incident has dominated headlines and airwaves, and sent politicians from the president on down scurrying to outdo each other with statements that such incidents are “unacceptable,” and that all sorts of new and better procedures will be implemented to make sure nothing like this ever happens again.

Meanwhile, millions of travelers are being subjected to increasingly pointless and invasive searches and the resultant delays, such as the one that practically shut down Newark Liberty International Airport last week, after a man accidentally walked through the wrong gate, or Tuesday’s incident at a California airport, which closed for hours after a “potentially explosive substance” was found in a traveler’s luggage. (It turned out to be honey.)

As to the question of what the government should do rather than keep playing Terrorball, the answer is simple: stop treating Americans like idiots and cowards.

It might be unrealistic to expect the average citizen to have a nuanced grasp of statistically based risk analysis, but there is nothing nuanced about two basic facts:

(1) America is a country of 310 million people, in which thousands of horrible things happen every single day; and

(2) The chances that one of those horrible things will be that you’re subjected to a terrorist attack can, for all practical purposes, be calculated as zero.

Consider that on this very day about 6,700 Americans will die. When confronted with this statistic almost everyone reverts to the mindset of the title character’s acquaintances in Tolstoy’s great novella “The Death of Ivan Ilyich,” and indulges in the complacent thought that “it is he who is dead and not I.”

Consider then that around 1,900 of the Americans who die today will be less than 65, and that indeed about 140 will be children. Approximately 50 Americans will be murdered today, including several women killed by their husbands or boyfriends, and several children who will die from abuse and neglect. Around 85 of us will commit suicide, and another 120 will die in traffic accidents.

No amount of statistical evidence, however, will make any difference to those who give themselves over to almost completely irrational fears. Such people, and there are apparently a lot of them in America right now, are in fact real victims of terrorism. They also make possible the current ascendancy of the politics of cowardiceâ??the cynical exploitation of fear for political gain.

Unfortunately, the politics of cowardice can also make it rational to spend otherwise irrational amounts of resources on further minimizing already minimal risks. Given the current climate of fear, any terrorist incident involving Islamic radicals generates huge social costs, so it may make more economic sense, in the short term, to spend X dollars to avoid 10 deaths caused by terrorism than it does to spend X dollars to avoid 1,000 ordinary homicides. Any long-term acceptance of such trade-offs hands terrorists the only real victory they can ever achieve.

It’s a remarkable fact that a nation founded, fought for, built by, and transformed through the extraordinary courage of figures such as George Washington, Susan B. Anthony and Martin Luther King Jr. now often seems reduced to a pitiful whimpering giant by a handful of mostly incompetent criminals, whose main weapons consist of scary-sounding Web sites and shoe- and underwear-concealed bombs that fail to detonate.

Terrorball, in short, is made possible by a loss of the sense that cowardice is among the most disgusting and shameful of vices. I shudder to think what Washington, who as commander in chief of the Continental Army intentionally exposed himself to enemy fire to rally his poorly armed and badly outnumbered troops, would think of the spectacle of millions of Americans not merely tolerating but actually demanding that their government subject them to various indignities, in the false hope that the rituals of what has been called “security theater” will reduce the already infinitesimal risks we face from terrorism.

Indeed, if one does not utter the magic word “terrorism,” the notion that it is actually in the best interests of the country for the government to do everything possible to keep its citizens safe becomes self-evident nonsense. Consider again some of the things that will kill 6,700 Americans today. The country’s homicide rate is approximately six times higher than that of most other developed nations; we have 15,000 more murders per year than we would if the rate were comparable to that of otherwise similar countries. Americans own around 200 million firearms, which is to say there are nearly as many privately owned guns as there are adults in the country. In addition, there are about 200,000 convicted murderers walking free in America today (there have been more than 600,000 murders in America over the past 30 years, and the average time served for the crime is about 12 years).

Given these statistics, there is little doubt that banning private gun ownership and making life without parole mandatory for anyone convicted of murder would reduce the homicide rate in America significantly. It would almost surely make a major dent in the suicide rate as well: Half of the nation’s 31,000 suicides involve a handgun. How many people would support taking both these steps, which together would save exponentially more lives than even aâ??obviously hypotheticalâ??perfect terrorist-prevention system? Fortunately, very few. (Although I admit a depressingly large number might support automatic life without parole.)

Or consider traffic accidents. All sorts of measures could be taken to reduce the current rate of automotive carnage from 120 fatalities a dayâ??from lowering speed limits, to requiring mechanisms that make it impossible to start a car while drunk, to even more restrictive measures. Some of these measures may well be worth taking. But the point is that at present we seem to consider 43,000 traffic deaths per year an acceptable cost to pay for driving big fast cars.

For obvious reasons, politicians and other policy makers generally avoid discussing what ought to be considered an “acceptable” number of traffic deaths, or murders, or suicides, let alone what constitutes an acceptable level of terrorism. Even alluding to such concepts would require treating voters as adultsâ??something which at present seems to be considered little short of political suicide.

Yet not treating Americans as adults has costs. For instance, it became the official policy of our federal government to try to make America “a drug-free nation” 25 years ago.

After spending hundreds of billions of dollars and imprisoning millions of people, it’s slowly beginning to become possible for some politicians to admit that fighting a necessarily endless drug war in pursuit of an impossible goal might be a bad idea. How long will it take to admit that an endless war on terror, dedicated to making America a terror-free nation, is equally nonsensical?

What then is to be done? A little intelligence and a few drops of courage remind us that life is full of risk, and that of all the risks we confront in America every day, terrorism is a very minor one. Taking prudent steps to reasonably minimize the tiny threat we face from a few fanatic criminals need not grant them the attention they crave. Continuing to play Terrorball, on the other hand, guarantees that the terrorists will always win, since it places the bar for what counts as success for them practically on the ground.
â??Paul Campos is a professor of law at the University of Colorado.

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
You’re a really annoying poster, and I wouldn’t have opened this if I would have realized you posted it,

[/quote]

Does this mean we won’t be taking warm showers in the wee hours of the morning? :frowning:

This is how a free market should work. The operators of airlines have a greater stake in their airplanes, pilots and passengers than the feds do.

I’d be flying the airline that checks my .45 to be sure I’m packing airline safe frangible rounds.