Ain't So Bad! ... for Real?

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]KODOM wrote:
The issue isn’t truly obesity and wheat, but chronic inflammation and overconsumption of gluten, causing an inflamed GI tract and resulting in distention. That is my concept of a “wheat belly”, and something I have seen frequently. In fact, I believe that it is a major contributing factor (although unprovable) to the beer belly as well. [/quote]

You do realize, of course, that when we write “wheat belly” we are actually referring to a book?

The book has several chapters dedicated to blaming wheat for the prevalence of diabetes/obesity in our culture.

However, I do look forward to discussing this with you once you get your thoughts together.[/quote]

LOL, yes I realize it is a book. We have talked at length about the book on here in the past. I was speaking in more general terms about TC’s article.

Look, my issue isn’t whether or not, in some hypothetical universe, abstaining from a particular food product may or may not improve health.

My issue is with using a fad diet book based on anecdotal evidence, scaremongering and ridiculous hyperbole (filtered cigarettes? Comparisons to battery acid??) as a soapbox for preaching radical changes in dietary habits with the promise that it will do everything for our sick, obese population except make their dicks bigger.

My issue is with this book being held up as some sort of gold standard for living healthfully, promoted as some absolute truth, when the fact of the matter is that one half-baked, run-of-the-mill college student was able to shift the anti-wheat argument from a place of scientific certitude to one of “well, it couldn’t hurt, right?” in less than an afternoon’s work.

And yet, the people who actually study this stuff for a living have somehow got it all wrong.

I’ve already shown that this crop is being consumed elsewhere, and in greater amounts, without the observed trends in obesity/disease we see here. Clearly, the food, itself, is not the problem. As the Bird so astutely pointed out, and I wholeheartedly agreed with, there is very likely some sort of cultural issue at play. Until we figure out the ROOT CAUSE of our obesity epidemic, arbitrarily knocking shit off of supermarket shelves “because it can’t hurt” is going to do nothing but cause people to shift their palates to something else that is tasty, convenient and cheap.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
There’s a reason that all the coaches on this site, PN, etc recommend ditching wheat in favor of true whole grains and even then probably limiting their consumption based upon several factors.[/quote]

I’m sure the coaches and PN experts do so because they are largely interested in producing the leanest physiques possible.

Since 99.5% of the world’s population doesn’t care a lick about being peeled, who cares? People across the pond seem to be able to incorporate it into their diet in fairly large amounts and STILL have us envying their health.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
I know I’m late to the party here, but are people really discounting exercise in this equation. There’s an overwhelming amount of evidence pointing to daily exercise as a cure-all for T2 diabetes, CHD, fibromyalgia, etc. And not only does exercise prevent those things, but it treats them just as effectively as drugs and surgical intervention. Why blame gluten when inactivity is so glaringly obvious?[/quote]

Is it? 1950s housewives didn’t hit the gym, they didn’t take Zumba classes. Yet, they were much lighter. Granted, they also vacuumed more :wink: but there are numerous studies showing that physical activity w/o dietary intervention fail at weight loss.

I’m not saying exercise isn’t important for health, but from a weight perspective it’s not that important.[/quote]

Yes, it is. In the 1950s, housewives also didn’t have the internet or 1000 TV channels (with DVR) available to them, and they certainly couldn’t count on their kids plopping their fatasses in front of a TV or computer for hours at a time.

[quote]anonym wrote:
The Wheat Belly hypothesis of obesity/diabetes is (from what I can tell): wheat (amylopectin A) → glucose spikes → increased insulin → hypoglycemia → more wheat (amylopectin A) → obesity/diabetes.

Just an FYI for people who are talking about gluten or whatever.

If you want to avoid gluten, that’s fine. If you personally feel that you are better off without it, more power to you. If, however, you want to use a fad, pop-culture diet book as a soapbox for preaching about how everyone who eats wheat just doesn’t get it, or is sick and doesn’t even know it… then, again, I guess that’s your prerogative.

But, until someone starts giving more evidence than a link to a second-hand account of some guy working in an allergy testing facility who, coincidentally, developed a test that is MUCH more sensitive to the disease biomarkers than the widespread, conventional methods… I just do not care. Sorry. No reasonable person would (or should) expect me to waste time discussing that.[/quote]

If we take what “Wheat Belly” states, that gliadin increases appetite that could be a reason for obesity → diabetes in America. The tradition of bread in other countries which use pre-ferments helps fight this. Even most pastry desserts in other countries use pre-ferments as well as fermentation times for dough.

That or the government is adding things to our food… dun…dun…dun

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
If we take what “Wheat Belly” states, that gliadin increases appetite that could be a reason for obesity → diabetes in America. The tradition of bread in other countries which use pre-ferments helps fight this. Even most pastry desserts in other countries use pre-ferments as well as fermentation times for dough.

That or the government is adding things to our food… dun…dun…dun[/quote]

What section does he talk about gliadin and appetite? I’ve only been skimming.

Italy

Population: 60,483,521
Wheat consumption: 11,256 TMT
11,256/60,483,521 = 0.00018 TMT per person. Still (slightly) higher than the 0.00011 seen in the United States.

I am assuming, due to the major production of Triticum aestivum in Europe, that it has made its way to the spaghetti capital of the planet.

Obesity stats:

8.5%, 10%, 9.8% – depending on the sauce

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2228.html

T2D stats:
2 - 5% according to the Italian Standards for Diabetes Mellitus 2007
http://www.aemmedi.it/files/english_conten/2007_AMD_SID_italian_standards_diabetes_mellitus.pdf

So, first we dismiss the French “Wheat Paradox” by assuming they ferment enough of their wheat products to such a significant extent that they can eat DOUBLE what we do and be no worse for the wear… but what about the Italians? How far are some of you willing to stretch these explanations before you realize how silly it all sounds?

The obesity/diabetes issue is cashed. Pick another part of the book and let’s see if we can poke a few holes in it.

The schizophrenia stuff sounds promising.

I don’t have a copy of wheat belly, but I will comment on a few excerpts I found on the internet. Just to be clear, I am not against the idea of wheat-/carb-free diets. I just don’t think that is the important concept in insulin resistance/obesity in populations.

[quote]
The early phase of growing visceral fat and diabetes is accompanied by a 50 percent increase in pancreatic beta cells responsible for producing insulin, a physiologic adaptation to meet the enormous demands of a body that is resistant to insulin. But beta cell adaptation has limits.

High blood sugars, such as those occurring after a nice cranberry muffin provoke the phenomenon of â??glucotoxicity,â?? actual damage to pancreatic insulinâ??producing beta cells that results from high blood sugars.9

The higher the blood sugar, the more damage to beta cells. The effect is progressive and starts at a glucose level of 100 mg/dL, a value many doctors call normal. After two slices of whole wheat bread with low-fat turkey breast, a typical blood glucose would be 140 to 180 mg/dL in a nondiabetic adult, more than sufficient to do away with a few precious beta cellsâ??which are never replaced.[/quote]
First of all, glucotoxicity is an accepted mechanism of beta cell dysfunction and loss. However, the doctor states that a turkey sandwich will raise blood sugar levels high enough to destroy a few beta cells. This is completely false. Glucotoxicity is a chronic condition; a transient increase in blood glucose is not sufficient to destroy these cells. Furthermore, the doctor implies that raising blood glucose above 100 mg/dL would lead to irreplaceable loss of beta cells. A number like that could not definitively be defined. If the doctor has a scientific reason to speculate such a thing, it would be based in poor reasoning.

[quote]
Your poor, vulnerable pancreatic beta cells are also damaged by the process of lipotoxicity, loss of beta cells due to increased triglycerides and fatty acids, such as those developing from repeated carbohydrate ingestion. Recall that a diet weighted toward carbohydrates results in increased VLDL particles and triglycerides that persist in both the after-meal and between-meal periods, conditions that further exacerbate lipotoxic attrition of pancreatic beta cells.[/quote]
The post-prandial hyperlipidemia that the doctor talks about is a consequence of insulin resistance and diabetes, something which is not necessarily attributed to wheat consumption. Furthermore, a high fat diet would lead to the above much faster than excess carbohydrates. The take home message is that anything in excess (pathological amounts) can directly result in a particular dysfunction, which also impacts other systems. carbohydrates → glucotoxicity → dyslipidemia. fats → lipotoxicity → high blood glucose.

[quote]
Pancreatic injury is further worsened by inflammatory phenomena, such as oxidative injury, leptin, various interleukins, and tumor necrosis factor, all resulting from the visceral fat hotbed of inflammation, all characteristic of prediabetic and diabetic states.10

Over time and repeated sucker punches from glucotoxicity, lipotoxicity, and inflammatory destruction, beta cells wither and die, gradually reducing the number of beta cells to less than 50 percent of the normal starting number.11 Thatâ??s when diabetes is irreversibly established.[/quote]
I don’t think anybody would disagree with the above.

[quote]
I think wheat is the worst of the worst carbohydrates, not only because of the blood-sugar effect but also because it increases consumption. You take the wheat away from the average person’s diet, and there’s a natural reduction in appetite to the tune of 400 calories a day. That would happen if the only thing I asked you to do is to eliminate wheat.[/quote]
Maybe. I haven’t read any studies on appetite regulation and wheat. Anybody that has can comment on this.

[quote]
There’s a very close connection - that’s how I stumbled onto this. The most flagrant cause for heart disease that’s rarely talked about is small LDL particles. I’ve watched small LDL particles explode over the last 15 years. It has become not just common but the dominant pattern we see now in virtually everybody. I’ll see maybe a handful of people a year who don’t have it, and they’re all young, slender, pre-menopausal females who are marathon runners. Everybody else has at least moderate-to-severe degrees of LDL.

There are only two ways to get small particles, the flagrant kind that causes heart disease. One is genetically determined; the other is carbohydrate. I used a very simple line of reasoning. The foods that trigger the LDL pattern the worst, once removed, give you the most extravagant benefits. If wheat raises blood sugar and triggers small LDL particles higher than almost all other kinds of foods, let’s see what happens when I took the wheat out of the diet of those with small LDL and high blood sugars. [/quote]
Small LDL is ONE theory about heart disease. There are many others that stand out as well. Secondly, there are numerous ways that small LDL particles can be generated, not just two. On a side note, it is not the size of the particle that makes these particles pathogenic, as is commonly stated. It has been known for more than 10 years that large particles can easily transverse the endothelium. It is a misconception that only small particles make it through.

[quote]
Patients would come back with much lower fasting blood sugars and weight loss, but I’d also hear stories about how their asthma improved. Leg swelling decreased; mood and depression improved. Other forms of arthritis and inflammatory diseases improved. Crohn’s Disease improved. Acid reflux went away. At first, I thought: “This has to be a coincidence. Why would this have anything to do with eliminating wheat from your diet?”[/quote]
Is this really so surprising. People lost weight, became more insulin sensitive and improved in a number of areas of health.

anonym- perhaps it’s time to give the book a fair read :wink:

I havent read the book mainly because of the cult following it gets. That made me overly suspucious of it. I did try to torrent it but the print on it is pretty crappy. Finally some people are looking at it criticaly rather than hailing it as gospel.

Health issues or not, I’ll gladly buy meat sans pink slime. I don’t care if it costs more.

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I havent read the book mainly because of the cult following it gets. That made me overly suspucious of it. I did try to torrent it but the print on it is pretty crappy. Finally some people are looking at it criticaly rather than hailing it as gospel.[/quote]

there’s an audiobook version of it.

I get what you’re saying about the cult following part. Same thing happens in my mind about CF or Paleo, but when you actually read a Paleo book, shit makes sense (for the most part)… when you read Wheat Belly, I’m sure it will start to click at least a little more than w/o reading it. Again, not that one should blindly follow it, but the author makes a very good case.

reminds me years ago when I used to bash low-carb diets, like Atkins. And many in the fitness industry did, without ever reading the book, LOL (myself included)… now we have all these studies showing the benefits of a low/lower-carb diet.

I know that for me personally and the people that I care about wheat is not an issue. So that is really all that matters. And I also know that if someone is unsure all they have to do is elminate then reintroduce it so see. Thats all that matters to me. I dont really feel a need to read the book. If someone doesnt have issues with it as anonym has pointed out the science does not show why you shouldnt and there are plenty around the word that do it and it excess to what a lot of americans do.

All the diets make sense in some way and they are all tools to be used for differnt goals, and different physiologies, different lifestyles

Wheat is among the most potent sources of sulfuric acid, yielding more sulfuric acid per gram than any meat.13 (Wheat is surpassed only by oats in quantity of sulfuric acid produced.) Sulfuric acid is dangerous stuff. Put it on your hand and it will cause a severe burn. Get it in your eyes and you can go blind. (Go take a look at the warnings prominently displayed on your car battery.) The sulfuric acid in acid rain erodes stone monuments, kills trees and plants, and disrupts the reproductive behavior of aquatic animals. The sulfuric acid produced by wheat consumption is undoubtedly dilute. But even in teensy-weensy quantities in dilute form, it is an overwhelmingly potent acid that rapidly overcomes the neutralizing effects of alkaline bases.

Another Wheat Belly excerpt.

Scare tactics aside, what jumps out at us in particular?

Wheat is among the most potent sources of sulfuric acid, yielding more sulfuric acid per gram than any meat.

Hard to believe, right?

Here’s the table from the study Davis cites. What do we notice when we look at it? No, not the ‘potential SAA’ part, though that certainly is interesting.

The table that Davis uses to claim wheat is a more potent source of sulfuric acid per gram than any meat… deals with SA PER 100 GRAMS OF PROTEIN. So, first wheat has evil gluten, THEN it has evil amylopectin and NOW it has evil amino acids.

So, putting aside the completely disingenuous way he (mis)interpreted the literature to further his agenda… who cares?

Who eats just as many grams of protein from wheat as they do from eggs, tuna or meat? What happens to this table once you start looking at it in terms of SA per 100g of FOOD??

Can someone explain this bullshit?

edit: and even if the table WAS for 100g of FOOD (note: it is NOT)… is pork no longer considered a meat nowadays???

Even if the table WAS for 100g of FOOD (note: it is NOT)… does the table show actually show that it is second ONLY to oats?

I’m pretty sure I see eggs, walnuts and, of course, pork in there, too.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
anonym- perhaps it’s time to give the book a fair read ;)[/quote]

What do you mean by ‘fair’?

I am giving it a ‘fair’ chance to hold its weight under scrutiny, if that’s what you mean. Nothing I have written so far is a lie or “stretch”; every fact and statistic has been referenced and is accurate to the best of my knowledge given that I am neither writing a thesis paper nor getting paid to do this.

Anyone following along is more than welcome to post relevant information that ‘debunks’ what I am saying or addresses the concerns others have voiced earlier in the thread. I don’t have any dog in this fight, though if there is one thing I have a problem with, it is medical professionals distorting scientific literature (or outright LYING about it) in books written for the masses.

The lay public doesn’t know about this shit. They don’t have access to these journals. And even if they did, they don’t know the jargon and would probably be intimidated by the content.

It’s a shit-tier move for someone who has a level of education well beyond what it takes to reach basic conclusions about a TABLE in a study to go ahead and willfully misrepresent the information in order to bolster ridiculous hyperbolic statements comparing wheat to car battery acid.

Seriously. Davis was lying about the fact that wheat produces more SA per gram than any meat. And, even IF the table was per 100g of food, pork is still CLEARLY higher on the list than wheat. The guy is also lying when he writes that wheat is surpassed only by oats in quantity of sulfuric acid produced. Besides pork, walnuts and eggs both rank higher.

This guy clearly isn’t playing ‘fairly’… so why should I?

Not sure about the SA load, but I thought it was well accepted that grains create an acidic load in the body, and also bind with calcium absorption?

or rather create calcium loss in the urine.

All I know is, I feel SO much better with wheat OUT of my diet.

No more bloated gut, no more tiredness in the afternoon, no more itchy scalp.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Not sure about the SA load, but I thought it was well accepted that grains create an acidic load in the body, and also bind with calcium absorption? [/quote]

It doesn’t matter what is “well accepted” or what is not.

Davis was just caught lying and misrepresenting data to further his agenda.

Don’t you see what a MAJOR issue this is for his credibility? For the entire argument he puts forth?

What else is he lying about in this book? What other studies did he ‘massage’ into fitting his position and what other data is he omitting from his references to make his point?

This is obviously a deliberate, bitch move. The information in the table is clear as day. But then, 95% of the people reading this book have neither the access nor the education to pour over all of these studies and pick them apart. He is clearly capitalizing on that fact.

And yet, people will still continue to drink the (gluten-free, obvi) Kool-Aid. Because, you know, “it couldn’t hurt”.