Ain't So Bad! ... for Real?

Nutrition
61

[quote]CrewPierce wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
As I mentioned int he spill…

Pink Slime- not a health hazard, just gross sounding, most people that are in an uproar eat way worse shit.
[/quote]

Pink slime is protein in a lot of dog foods.

Will the dog food kill you? No.

Do I want unsuspecting children eating it simply because it’s cheap? No.

I pay a sh*t ton of taxes every year and I would like to think that at least some of that money goes to schools so that kids can eat something better than dog food protein. (Public schools were the largest buyers of pink slime)

I have lived in many cities (DC, Detroit, Atlanta, and Miami) and know first hand that the best meal some kids get every day is the free or reduced lunch at school. At least give these kids a chance at a decent meal that doesn’t include the scraps that we feed to animals. [/quote]

don’t get me wrong, I still don’t think it should be used :wink: , but if I’m going to a restaurant, it won’t deter me from a nice bacon cheeseburger

62

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]CrewPierce wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
As I mentioned int he spill…

Pink Slime- not a health hazard, just gross sounding, most people that are in an uproar eat way worse shit.
[/quote]

Pink slime is protein in a lot of dog foods.

Will the dog food kill you? No.

Do I want unsuspecting children eating it simply because it’s cheap? No.

I pay a sh*t ton of taxes every year and I would like to think that at least some of that money goes to schools so that kids can eat something better than dog food protein. (Public schools were the largest buyers of pink slime)

I have lived in many cities (DC, Detroit, Atlanta, and Miami) and know first hand that the best meal some kids get every day is the free or reduced lunch at school. At least give these kids a chance at a decent meal that doesn’t include the scraps that we feed to animals. [/quote]

don’t get me wrong, I still don’t think it should be used :wink: , but if I’m going to a restaurant, it won’t deter me from a nice bacon cheeseburger
[/quote]

Fair enough! It won’t stop me either from my weekly cheat meal.

I was just making the point that I agree with the general uproar over pink slim given that we have somehow determined our kids and our dogs deserve the same level of food quality.

63

[quote]MAF14 wrote:
So what do you think about the US eating the “Mutant Wheat” described in Wheat Belly versus Iran, Italy, Romania etc eating a more “natural” wheat product i.e. less gluten?

Or is it safe to assume due to the economic benefits of our (mutant) high yield wheat, that it has been planted in most industrial nations?

Serious questions.[/quote]

OK, so I had a response written to this last night, but then I torrented Wheat Belly.

After skimming a few pages, my impression is that the wheat Davis takes issue with is Triticum aestivum, which he refers to as being “genetically closest to what we now call wheat” and that Wikipedia says is otherwise known as “common wheat” or “bread wheat”.

Whelp, I found this overview from some people at the University of Bonn, Germany, that states the following:

Wheat (Triticum aestivum L., T. durum Desf.)

Wheat is the world’s most important cereal crop in terms of both area cultivated (232 million ha) and amount of grain produced (595 million t). It is widely grown throughout the temperate zones (in Northern Europe up to 60 °N) and in some tropical/sub-tropical areas at higher elevations. The major centres are: Europe (131 milion t grain, 27 million ha), the former USSR (108 million t grain, 48 million ha), North America (106 million t grain, 42 million ha), China (96 milion t grain, 30 million ha) and India (50 million t grain, 23 million ha). All these[/b]

http://afghanag.ucdavis.edu/b_field-crops/wheat-1/FS_Wheat_Fert_WFUM_IFA.pdf

So, unless someone knows a subspecies name of American wheat and can cite some of the phenotypic difference(s) between it and European strains of “common” wheat, then I don’t know if there’s much to that particular argument.

Or, maybe I misread and picked the wrong wheat to research.

64

Wheat is also the cause of our diabetes? (I dunno – I haven’t read the book chapter yet).

However, we already know that France eats about as many calories as we do, with just about as much of it coming from wheat. We also know that Triticum aestivum is produced both in the United States AND Europe; therefore, it makes sense to believe the French incorporate this into their diet regularly, given their wheat consumption.

Well, one study looking at 10,000 frogs states that, “The prevalence of type 2 diabetes was 5.08% in men and 4.11% in women”.

Another states that, “It is currently estimated that 2.2 million people (3.8% of the population) have type 2 diabetes…”

In the United States, however, it is said that 8.3% of the population has type 2 diabetes.
http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/statistics/#fast

So, they eat as many calories, just as much wheat… yet somehow weigh less AND have less T2D?

65

again, how do we know they eat the same # of calories, usually estimates are based upon what the population as a whole have available. Unless, I’m mistaken.

The French are known not to snack as often as Americans and portion sizes are lower… This is just based upon my readings and no actual data/studies. I believe PN talks about the French and their different eating habits. Now that I think of it the book “Mindless Eating” I believe touches on it as well.

Curious, what are your thoughts on the obesity/T2 diabetes problem? What do you feel is causing it?

Personally, while exercise plays a role, I think it’s minor. Women 50 yrs ago didn’t hit the gym 5 x week, yet on avg they weighed much less than today with far fewer diseases.

Do you feel the avg American consumes too much wheat? Just talking to people that either don’t care (typically high sugar/processed carbs), or those that do care they cut back on “fatty” foods and up “whole grain/wheat” consumption.

66

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
again, how do we know they eat the same # of calories, usually estimates are based upon what the population as a whole have available. Unless, I’m mistaken.

The French are known not to snack as often as Americans and portion sizes are lower… This is just based upon my readings and no actual data/studies. I believe PN talks about the French and their different eating habits. Now that I think of it the book “Mindless Eating” I believe touches on it as well.

Curious, what are your thoughts on the obesity/T2 diabetes problem? What do you feel is causing it?

Personally, while exercise plays a role, I think it’s minor. Women 50 yrs ago didn’t hit the gym 5 x week, yet on avg they weighed much less than today with far fewer diseases.

Do you feel the avg American consumes too much wheat? Just talking to people that either don’t care (typically high sugar/processed carbs), or those that do care they cut back on “fatty” foods and up “whole grain/wheat” consumption.[/quote]

I would think it would be a combination of general lack of activity not neccessarily hitting the gym but just cutting down on daily activity in genreal. The population or at least the “larger” ppl are doing less in the day than they used to and combine that with excessive calorie intake you get fat ppl with diabettes. A lot of people who do not pay attention to body comp or care enough about general health enough to get information from anywhere else but the news do not realize how many calories they are really eating.

I have had many conversations with peopel who think that because EVOO is healthy that they can cook with it, quite a bit, and it will be healthy. What they dont count on is the fact that they are adding a ton of fat. Not many people seem to realize this (tnation crowd is diff). So many people are very underestimating calories because of little things like this which add up.

Of course the large consumption of pop does not help. I am all for moderation until you hit sugar filled drinks. A dextrose shake post wokrout with some leucine is ok but other than that there is no reason to be pounding sugar filled liquids.

67

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
again, how do we know they eat the same # of calories, usually estimates are based upon what the population as a whole have available. Unless, I’m mistaken.

The French are known not to snack as often as Americans and portion sizes are lower… This is just based upon my readings and no actual data/studies. I believe PN talks about the French and their different eating habits. Now that I think of it the book “Mindless Eating” I believe touches on it as well.[/quote]

OK, let’s assume for a minute that the French DO eat less calories than we do.

France is the fourth largest producer of wheat in the world and the largest producer of wheat in Europe. The average production of wheat in France is 35,062 TMT, with 18,467 TMT of this amount being consumed domestically in France. This makes France the sixth largest consumer of wheat in the world.

Compare this to:

The United States is the third largest producer of wheat in the world. On average, the United States produces 62,550 TMT of wheat. The United States is the fourth largest consumer of wheat, on average consuming 35,704 TMT. The United States imports, on average, 2,584 TMT and it exports 28,547 TMT, making the U.S. the largest wheat-exporting nation in the world.

http://www.spectrumcommodities.com/education/commodity/statistics/wheat.html

The United States, with a population of 311,591,917 people, is the fourth largest consumer of wheat in the world. France, with a population of 64,876,618, is the sixth largest consumer of wheat in the world.

From here, we can divide the ‘wheat consumption in TMT’ by the population to figure out the TMT per person, right?

18,467/64,876,618 = 0.000284 TMT/person for France
35,704/311,591,917 = 0.00011 TMT/person for the United States

We already know that Triticum aestivum is produced in Europe. We (now) know for shizzle that it is used in France:
http://wheat.pw.usda.gov/ggpages/awn/57/TEXTFILES/NSGC-PI.pdf

We now ALSO know that the French, on average, eat more wheat than we do per person – perhaps even TWICE as much.

So, even if we were to accept the assertion that the French are less obese/diabetic than we are because they consume less calories, it STILL doesn’t explain what is going on to make them immune from the effects of this ‘mutant wheat’ that seemingly forces the average American to stuff their stomachs to the point of bursting at the seams at only HALF the intake.

edit: I know I’m pissing off some mod with these edits, but it’s actually ~39% of the French’s wheat consumption.

68

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Do you feel the avg American consumes too much wheat? Just talking to people that either don’t care (typically high sugar/processed carbs), or those that do care they cut back on “fatty” foods and up “whole grain/wheat” consumption.[/quote]

If 60%+ of the United States population is either overweight or obese, then I’d have to say the average American consumes too much of a lot of stuff.

The obesity/T2D question is a little tough. It’ll take some time to put my thoughts together on that in a way that will make sense.

69

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
again, how do we know they eat the same # of calories, usually estimates are based upon what the population as a whole have available. Unless, I’m mistaken.

The French are known not to snack as often as Americans and portion sizes are lower… This is just based upon my readings and no actual data/studies. I believe PN talks about the French and their different eating habits. Now that I think of it the book “Mindless Eating” I believe touches on it as well.[/quote]

OK, let’s assume for a minute that the French DO eat less calories than we do.

France is the fourth largest producer of wheat in the world and the largest producer of wheat in Europe. The average production of wheat in France is 35,062 TMT, with 18,467 TMT of this amount being consumed domestically in France. This makes France the sixth largest consumer of wheat in the world.

Compare this to:

The United States is the third largest producer of wheat in the world. On average, the United States produces 62,550 TMT of wheat. The United States is the fourth largest consumer of wheat, on average consuming 35,704 TMT. The United States imports, on average, 2,584 TMT and it exports 28,547 TMT, making the U.S. the largest wheat-exporting nation in the world.

http://www.spectrumcommodities.com/education/commodity/statistics/wheat.html

The United States, with a population of 311,591,917 people, is the fourth largest consumer of wheat in the world. France, with a population of 64,876,618, is the sixth largest consumer of wheat in the world.

From here, we can divide the ‘wheat consumption in TMT’ by the population to figure out the TMT per person, right?

18,467/64,876,618 = 0.000284 TMT/person for France
35,704/311,591,917 = 0.00011 TMT/person for the United States

We already know that Triticum aestivum is produced in Europe. We (now) know for shizzle that it is used in France:
http://wheat.pw.usda.gov/ggpages/awn/57/TEXTFILES/NSGC-PI.pdf

We now ALSO know that the French, on average, eat more wheat than we do per person – perhaps even TWICE as much.

So, even if we were to accept the assertion that the French are less obese/diabetic than we are because they consume less calories, it STILL doesn’t explain what is going on to make them immune from the effects of this ‘mutant wheat’ that seemingly forces the average American to stuff their stomachs to the point of bursting at the seams at only HALF the intake.

edit: I know I’m pissing off some mod with these edits, but it’s actually ~39% of the French’s wheat consumption.[/quote]

Could it be the type of wheat bread/products? Though the French may eat more bread it is usually made of 3-5 ingredients. The use of artisan flour and Poolish may also make a difference.

Long fermentation aids in the digestibility of the bread. Also long fermentation of the wild yeasts and the bacterial activity helps to break down the gliadin fraction which alleviates much of the gluten intolerance problems.

70

Fuck, just try this stuff out for yourself. Don’t eat wheat for a week or 2, and then eat a whole bunch of bread. If you feel really bloated, get a stuffy nose, and are not hungry for longer than usual–Guess what, you would do well to avoid gluten.

All this scientific conjecture is pointless, IMO…half of what we do is not supported by clinical evidence, but still we find what works for us through trial and error.

I never thought I was affected by gluten, but after 1 1/2 years of avoiding it I look and feel better in every way.

71

The Wheat Belly hypothesis of obesity/diabetes is (from what I can tell): wheat (amylopectin A) → glucose spikes → increased insulin → hypoglycemia → more wheat (amylopectin A) → obesity/diabetes.

Just an FYI for people who are talking about gluten or whatever.

If you want to avoid gluten, that’s fine. If you personally feel that you are better off without it, more power to you. If, however, you want to use a fad, pop-culture diet book as a soapbox for preaching about how everyone who eats wheat just doesn’t get it, or is sick and doesn’t even know it… then, again, I guess that’s your prerogative.

But, until someone starts giving more evidence than a link to a second-hand account of some guy working in an allergy testing facility who, coincidentally, developed a test that is MUCH more sensitive to the disease biomarkers than the widespread, conventional methods… I just do not care. Sorry. No reasonable person would (or should) expect me to waste time discussing that.

72

When I was backpacking around the world, I once shared a room with an American and a French man.
For breakfast the Frog ate one croissant and a black coffee, while the Yank ate a bowel of cereal and 2 pieces of toast with jelly and a sweetened flavoured coffee.

I think habbit and attitude to foods play a big role in differences between the 2 nations.

True story.

tweet

73

[quote]anonym wrote:
The Wheat Belly hypothesis of obesity/diabetes is (from what I can tell): wheat (amylopectin A) → glucose spikes → increased insulin → hypoglycemia → more wheat (amylopectin A) → obesity/diabetes.

Just an FYI for people who are talking about gluten or whatever.

If you want to avoid gluten, that’s fine. If you personally feel that you are better off without it, more power to you. If, however, you want to use a fad, pop-culture diet book as a soapbox for preaching about how everyone who eats wheat just doesn’t get it, or is sick and doesn’t even know it… then, again, I guess that’s your prerogative.

But, until someone starts giving more evidence than a link to a second-hand account of some guy working in an allergy testing facility who, coincidentally, developed a test that is MUCH more sensitive to the disease biomarkers than the widespread, conventional methods… I just do not care. Sorry. No reasonable person would (or should) expect me to waste time discussing that.[/quote]

The issue isn’t truly obesity and wheat, but chronic inflammation and overconsumption of gluten, causing an inflamed GI tract and resulting in distention. That is my concept of a “wheat belly”, and something I have seen frequently. In fact, I believe that it is a major contributing factor (although unprovable) to the beer belly as well.

In regards to the article by TC…I’ve got a lot of thoughts on it as he sort of used a shotgun on all the so-called “myths” that quality food proponents have concerns over. I will have to collect my thoughts in a more comprehensive manner later this week.

74

[quote]theBird wrote:
When I was backpacking around the world, I once shared a room with an American and a French man.
For breakfast the Frog ate one croissant and a black coffee, while the Yank ate a bowel of cereal and 2 pieces of toast with jelly and a sweetened flavoured coffee.

I think habbit and attitude to foods play a big role in differences between the 2 nations.

True story.

tweet[/quote]

This is an important point. Food customs are very important in regards to obesity and health. Traditional French dining, which takes a looong time, where most food is freshly prepared and/or local is much different than people slamming half a Pizza Hut pizza and a liter of Coke. Social food norms do play a very large role, even if way lay all of the biochem of the actual foods aside.

75

Put it another way.

Scenario #1- Message- avoid saturated fat and cholesterol- in turn creates a nation full of health issues within 3 decades

Scenario #2- Message- avoid wheat/gluten - exactly what bad would come from this?

If there were parallel Earths, which Earth do you think would have lower disease rates?

We already have Earth #1 playing out :wink:

76

[quote]KODOM wrote:
The issue isn’t truly obesity and wheat, but chronic inflammation and overconsumption of gluten, causing an inflamed GI tract and resulting in distention. That is my concept of a “wheat belly”, and something I have seen frequently. In fact, I believe that it is a major contributing factor (although unprovable) to the beer belly as well. [/quote]

You do realize, of course, that when we write “wheat belly” we are actually referring to a book?

The book has several chapters dedicated to blaming wheat for the prevalence of diabetes/obesity in our culture.

However, I do look forward to discussing this with you once you get your thoughts together.

77

[quote]theBird wrote:
I think habbit and attitude to foods play a big role in differences between the 2 nations.[/quote]

Absolutely.

I think it is much more likely that the discrepancies we are discussing are rooted deeper in cultural differences than in anything Wheat Belly seems to want to blame.

78

anonym- I don’t purpose to have the answers to your replies. I will add that I don’t forsee wheat being the end all be all for the obesity issue or all health issues. There are other dietary factors at play. But, considering the amount of wheat the avg American consumes, to me it’s among the most important that needs changing.

There’s a reason that all the coaches on this site, PN, etc recommend ditching wheat in favor of true whole grains and even then probably limiting their consumption based upon several factors.

79

I know I’m late to the party here, but are people really discounting exercise in this equation? There’s an overwhelming amount of evidence pointing to daily exercise as a cure-all for T2 diabetes, CHD, fibromyalgia, etc. And not only does exercise prevent those things, but it treats them just as effectively as drugs and surgical intervention. Why blame gluten when inactivity is so glaringly obvious?

80

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
I know I’m late to the party here, but are people really discounting exercise in this equation. There’s an overwhelming amount of evidence pointing to daily exercise as a cure-all for T2 diabetes, CHD, fibromyalgia, etc. And not only does exercise prevent those things, but it treats them just as effectively as drugs and surgical intervention. Why blame gluten when inactivity is so glaringly obvious?[/quote]

Is it? 1950s housewives didn’t hit the gym, they didn’t take Zumba classes. Yet, they were much lighter. Granted, they also vacuumed more :wink: but there are numerous studies showing that physical activity w/o dietary intervention fail at weight loss.

I’m not saying exercise isn’t important for health, but from a weight perspective it’s not that important.