Ahmadinjad Get's It

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Are not our military personnel also occupants of this country. Why do you portray them as being somebody other than that… your words?[/quote]

Yes, but why should someone from NJ be deployed to NY to defend someone else’s backyard? That is all I am saying. Your backyard is your responsibility and not some 18 year old kid’s.

[quote]
Territory is taken in today’s world by air strikes and armor subduing an opponent preemptively before ground troops are deployed to accomplish the actual occupation.[/quote]

Territory cannot be taken except by having someone on the ground to defend it. To occupy land is to defend it from someone else occupying it. There can be no occupation with warplanes or cruise-missiles.

If everything on the ground is bombed to smithereens then there is no need to occupy it because there would be nothing productive worth defending.

Who is to say the necessary means would not come into existence when they are needed? Weapons have a way of showing up at the most opportune times.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Are not our military personnel also occupants of this country. Why do you portray them as being somebody other than that… your words?

Yes, but why should someone from NJ be deployed to NY to defend someone else’s backyard? That is all I am saying. Your backyard is your responsibility and not some 18 year old kid’s.

Territory is taken in today’s world by air strikes and armor subduing an opponent preemptively before ground troops are deployed to accomplish the actual occupation.

Territory cannot be taken except by having someone on the ground to defend it. To occupy land is to defend it from someone else occupying it. There can be no occupation with warplanes or cruise-missiles. If everything on the ground is bombed to smithereens then there is no need to occupy it because there would be nothing productive worth defending.

When you figure a way to take down enemy aircraft and repel armored ground units deployed by a navy off one of our coasts with bolt action rifles and slide action shotguns we’ll talk.

Who is to say the necessary means would not come into existence when they are needed? Weapons have a way of showing up at the most opportune times.[/quote]

I’m gonne be busy for a little while and can’t give a proper response at the moment, but have no fear. I will not let this go.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m gonne be busy for a little while and can’t give a proper response at the moment, but have no fear. I will not let this go.[/quote]

I should hope not. You’re one of the better arguers here.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Now some people will say, oh but if you just left, another regime, would have taken power in the turmoil and we would have had a worse dictator in there. Ok how long would that have taken? one year?

So after one year we go back in, bomb the fuck out of the new asshole and leave again. If someone want’s to try it a third time, so be it. At the worst, we would have had 3 six month military engagements, A lot less loss of life and probably a better reputation as not being an “occupier”. V[/quote]

Not a bad plan, really.

I think too many people in this country underestimate our capabilities. Trust me, no country could sucessfully invade us unless they nuked us into nothing. Lot of you forget about gang infested areas in cities and throughout.

I can see an army trying to take a ghetto, they would not have an easy time. And the thought of your kids and others you care about being killed by an invading army, you are going to fight to the death to protect them.

Lot of people bitch and moan about this country, and even say they hate it, but even those people don’t want to be taken over by some country.

Some of the posters here have given me the impression that they would just drop to their knees and beg for mercy cause they don’t want to die, and feel fighting would be hopeless. For people like that, i’d use them as a shield. Better to die fighting than have to be imprisoned and killed anyway, or even possibly turned into a slave.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Are not our military personnel also occupants of this country. Why do you portray them as being somebody other than that… your words?

<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, but why should someone from NJ be deployed to NY to defend someone else’s backyard? That is all I am saying. Your backyard is your responsibility and not some 18 year old kid’s.[/quote]

Look man, state militia’s, at least by themselves, are both a thing of the past and wholly unsuited to the political and technological realities of the modern world. The principle of NATIONAL defense is unavoidably implicit in the thought of the founders of this country.

There doesn’t have to be a conflict between the right to bare individual arms and a national defense. The plain fact of the matter is that the ideals propounded by the founding fathers as a whole could not be maintained AT ALL with 50 autonomous state militias in a military world of nuclear naval super vessels, multiple mach attack aircraft,

electronic/digital/satellite communications and surveillance, half a dozen layers of guided missile systems and artillery pieces capable of pinpoint accuracy from tens of miles away.

That’s not even mentioning unconventional systems.

A competent enemy could effectively attack a dozen or more, maybe many more, states simultaneously making a coordinated federal response an absolute necessity for survival.

George Washington and Benjamin Franklin could not have fathomed in their wildest feverish imaginations this level of logistic efficiency and raw firepower so we are forced to apply the principles they gave us to the military realities of the 21st century.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Territory is taken in today’s world by air strikes and armor subduing an opponent preemptively before ground troops are deployed to accomplish the actual occupation.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Territory cannot be taken except by having someone on the ground to defend it. To occupy land is to defend it from someone else occupying it. There can be no occupation with warplanes or cruise-missiles.

If everything on the ground is bombed to smithereens then there is no need to occupy it because there would be nothing productive worth defending.[/quote]

A few things here.

Yes, occupation by definition is an invading ground force wielding coercive controlling influence in a given geographical area, but you skipped over my point.

An occupation in today’s world invariably occurs after a successful air campaign and armored sweep. I’m not prior service so somebody can correct me on the terminology, but some version of that is how it’s done.

State militia’s equipped with sporting small arms is worse than immediate surrender in the face of that kind of assault unless you want to die on principle which while honorable still spells defeat.

An invading force attacking this continent has 2 major choices both of which are victories for them if successful.

They don’t have to “bomb everything on the ground to smithereens”. All they have to do is convince the citizens there that resisting them with a 30-06 is futile and most sane individuals would reach that conclusion in fairly short order.

The other would be to actually bomb everything on the ground to smithereens in which case we are still no longer a credible threat regardless of the fact that they may have deprived themselves of many of our domestic resources in the process. If they could accomplish that they don’t really need our resources in the first place do they?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
When you figure a way to take down enemy aircraft and repel armored ground units deployed by a navy off one of our coasts with bolt action rifles and slide action shotguns we’ll talk.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>

Who is to say the necessary means would not come into existence when they are needed? Weapons have a way of showing up at the most opportune times.[/quote]

Listen friend. You are not a dummy and at times you impress me significantly with your powers of reason and communication skills which leaves me mystified at other times like this one when you make incomprehensibly idiotic statements like the last one above.

Could I prevail upon you to please describe for me the process by which the ultra modern space age weapons, communications, intelligence, surveillance and transport systems required to repel such an attack, along with the personnel capable of operating them would [quote]SHOW UP[/quote]?

This I gotta hear. Do we put them on Santa’s list? Do we order them on Ebay and hope the UPS truck doesn’t get hit during delivery and arrives in time.

Do we see if John Scherer has video professor for F-22’s and laser guided missile systems so we can bone up real quick. Hold on we wouldn’t have those because we didn’t develop them. Oops sorry, they’re going to just “show up” without the decades of development that led to their deployment.

Are you willing to bet the survival of the greatest nation in the history of this planet on such a half baked, actually unbaked screwball scheme like that?

Think for a minute man, I know you have it in ya.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
<<< Look man, state militia’s, at least by themselves, are both a thing of the past and wholly unsuited to the political and technological realities of the modern world. >>>[/quote]

I’m waiting patiently for someone who will most likely be FightinIrish to jump all over this. Come on don’t lemme down.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Are you willing to bet the survival of the greatest nation in the history of this planet on such a half baked, actually unbaked screwball scheme like that?

Think for a minute man, I know you have it in ya.[/quote]

Iraq proves everything you wrote wrong. All the technology in the world does not stop determined people from acting in their own best interests. As soon as the US leaves all hell is going to break loose. To pretend otherwise it folly.

I don’t think this is the greatest nation in the history of the planet. I don’t believe in the idea of the nation state. The nation is merely a collectivist mindset that disregards the individual. I believe in me and mine and the goodness of the average person and that is it.

Technology doesn’t matter. People must operate it and they can be killed and or manipulated. I understand your fear but really it is unfounded. The worst that can happen is death.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
<<< Look man, state militia’s, at least by themselves, are both a thing of the past and wholly unsuited to the political and technological realities of the modern world. >>>

I’m waiting patiently for someone who will most likely be FightinIrish to jump all over this. Come on don’t lemme down.[/quote]

I’ll take a stab at this.

Perhaps your idea (and everyone else’s) of a functioning state malitia needs to change. Perhaps the state malitia should have radar and artillery of thier own? Why not have some armored vehicles? why not have the Military, sell the old equipment to the states, instead of foreign countries and people like Al-qeada. I agree that guys with rifles would be wholly unsuited to fight a modern war with no other support. But i’m sure an invading force would have to go through our military first, and if somehow they managed to beat our military down, whats left of them, which probably wouldn’t be too much, would get stomped by an adequately supplied militia.

No I’m not saying we need Armored humvees and tanks driving around the streets, but perhaps something like the reserves. The militia could use old military bases which have become abandoned. They could have several paid staffers who keep the place up and running. Men who are interested could do a weekend a month of training at the facility, shooting with high powered weapons, driving tanks, etc…

If the people wanted it to be a true last line of defence, and a deterrent to the government to never fuck with the people, then it would be.

V

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Are you willing to bet the survival of the greatest nation in the history of this planet on such a half baked, actually unbaked screwball scheme like that?

Think for a minute man, I know you have it in ya.

Iraq proves everything you wrote wrong. All the technology in the world does not stop determined people from acting in their own best interests. As soon as the US leaves all hell is going to break loose. To pretend otherwise it folly.[/quote]

Not really. Iraq proves that a military has no business trying to fight a nice war. If anything, we should have gone in there and done exactly what a strong military is supposed to do: Kill people and break shit. We should have destroyed the country, and left. Then destroy it again if an unsavory terrorist/lixyish regime tried to set up.

War should be fought with extreme prejudice - not political correctness.

[quote]
I don’t think this is the greatest nation in the history of the planet. I don’t believe in the idea of the nation state. The nation is merely a collectivist mindset that disregards the individual. I believe in me and mine and the goodness of the average person and that is it.[/quote]

I think everyone is quite aware of your blatherings. None of your crap has the slightest meaning in real life.

[quote]
Technology doesn’t matter. People must operate it and they can be killed and or manipulated. I understand your fear but really it is unfounded. The worst that can happen is death.[/quote]

Pointless drivel. No one is afraid. It’s called common sense. Sadly, that is the one of many mental attributes you have displayed a severe lack of.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Not really. Iraq proves that a military has no business trying to fight a nice war. If anything, we should have gone in there and done exactly what a strong military is supposed to do: Kill people and break shit. We should have destroyed the country, and left. [/quote]

In other words, we (ie our fearless leaders) have learned nothing from Korea to the present-- that you can’t fight wars from your living room and worry about polls.

Once again, a big fat History FAIL.

Sherman knew how to get his enemy’s attention. If we engage with Iran, this is how it must be.

One thing that is being completely ignored is that in the history of war-fighting no land has been taken without people on the ground to defend and occupy it. In order to take something the military who took it can never leave. Furthermore, not only must they stay indefinitely they must get it to point where it is acceptable for them to breed out the locals and create a new nationality.

Another piece of information that is being ignored or forgotten is that no empire can last because they are all economically untenable.

The government may change hands but free people will always be free if they remember the lessons of history.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

One thing that is being completely ignored is that in the history of war-fighting no land has been taken without people on the ground to defend and occupy it. In order to take something the military who took it can never leave. Furthermore, not only must they stay indefinitely they must get it to point where it is acceptable for them to breed out the locals and create a new nationality.

Another piece of information that is being ignored or forgotten is that no empire can last because they are all economically untenable.

The government may change hands but free people will always be free if they remember the lessons of history.[/quote]

Why are you focusing on occupation? I would rather not be blown up either. Not sure the national guard can help me there.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Why are you focusing on occupation? I would rather not be blown up either. Not sure the national guard can help me there.[/quote]

Death is a better option than slavery.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Death is a better option than slavery.[/quote]

But not before he wrote:

Which is it? Usually you wait at least a page before you forget what you say and start arguing against yourself - but you only lasted like 4 or 5 posts this time.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Death is a better option than slavery.

But not before he wrote:
The worst that can happen is death.

Which is it? Usually you wait at least a page before you forget what you say and start arguing against yourself - but you only lasted like 4 or 5 posts this time.

[/quote]

Well they both suck but as long as I am alive I will be no one’s slave. Liberty or death.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Death is a better option than slavery.

But not before he wrote:
The worst that can happen is death.

Which is it? Usually you wait at least a page before you forget what you say and start arguing against yourself - but you only lasted like 4 or 5 posts this time.

[/quote]

And then you wrote this :

"Another piece of information that is being ignored or forgotten is that no empire can last because they are all economically untenable.

The government may change hands but free people will always be free if they remember the lessons of history. "

So would slavery only be temorary by your logic? Gettin blowed up is permanent. I’ll take NATIONAL security thank you.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Death is a better option than slavery.

But not before he wrote:
The worst that can happen is death.

Which is it? Usually you wait at least a page before you forget what you say and start arguing against yourself - but you only lasted like 4 or 5 posts this time.

Well they both suck but as long as I am alive I will be no one’s slave. Liberty or death.[/quote]

If they blow you up you won’t alive. So to recap:

Local Militia can’t protect you from death, but they might be able to protect you from slavery, that you said would only be temporary anyway.

The fear is not occupation, it’s destruction. Simple really.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
"Another piece of information that is being ignored or forgotten is that no empire can last because they are all economically untenable.

The government may change hands but free people will always be free if they remember the lessons of history. "

[/quote]

Well the lesson of history includes in it the idea that slaves must be made to believe they are in a better position to follow the powers that be than live their own lives…

People who fight against their own enslavement cannot be called slaves.

Yep, death is permanent but I still choose freedom over a false choice like nationalism. It’s the same thing as slavery.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
dhickey wrote:
"Another piece of information that is being ignored or forgotten is that no empire can last because they are all economically untenable.

The government may change hands but free people will always be free if they remember the lessons of history. "

Well the lesson of history includes in it the idea that slaves must be made to believe they are in a better position to follow the powers that be than live their own lives…

People who fight against their own enslavement cannot be called slaves.

Yep, death is permanent but I still choose freedom over a false choice like nationalism. It’s the same thing as slavery.[/quote]

So wanting a strong defense is nationalism, now?

You are delusional.