I just have to say this. I have gotten to know Squating_Bear a bit and I cannot believe that the young man I’ve corresponded with is filled with this kinda hate. Yes, I KNOW. That’s NOT the point, but I am compelled to make this known.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Gee, Mr. Bear, I’d say the ball is in your court…[/quote]
Nothin but a peanut.
Because I have been careful and reasonable throughout - this is actually simple
Of all the posters I’ve seen here I think I am most like you. Probably not in opinions, but in style. Very careful in what and when you attack. And so to when you defend.
I’m not really limited to the options of either
A) disprove his posts or
B) backtrack or
C) admit defeat
No. All I’ve really gotta do is stay honest. You all will most likely not be satisfied with my answers - but I think you will have to admit that they are good ones
gulp
…at least I hope I’m as smart as I think I am…
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]squating_bear wrote:
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Interesting, thanks thirdruffian[/quote]
Just a heads up - that was off the charts BS
Very interesting they taught him that tho[/quote]
Actually, your post is “off-the-chart” BS. Having read your post, you are intentionally ignorant on the subject.
In my multiple tours of Iraq and Afganistan, I heard the same thing (“no peace until all the Jews are dead”) from muslims of all stripes. I’ll provide the quotes as I go along.[/quote]
What subject am I ignorant of exactly?
What does “from muslims of all stripes” mean to you?
Is that everyone that you came into contact with?
Or are you saying that rich or poor. Educated or not - you wouldn’t be surprised to hear something along those lines? …Because neither would I. That doesn’t make your earlier statement true.
How many times do I have to repeat that Tirib latched onto something very real? If I say it 10 more times, will it then pass through?
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]squating_bear wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
So he killed the Jews in Medina. Everyone. Including little kids. All documented in the koran. Basic, senseless, slaughter to get “revenge” and steal their stuff.
[/quote]
you mind to post up where the Quran documents this?
Quran doesn’t document Muslims senselessly slaughtering people for revenge and theft… you sure they actually taught you that? Cuz that doesn’t even make much sense - you sure your memory isn’t foggy on this?[/quote]
Do they have wikipedia in your world? Google? Like “medina Jews death” for example?[/quote]
Nope. Never heard of them.
You mind using a different source? Like, oh I dunno - the Quran - as you originally claimed
[quote]
Here:
“Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Kab b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Kab what he thought would be done with them. He replied, ‘Will you never understand? Don’t you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!’ This went on until the apostle made an end of them. Huyayy was brought out wearing a flowered robe in which he had made holes about the size of the finger-tips in every part so that it should not be taken from him as spoil, with his hands bound to his neck by a rope. When he saw the apostle he said, ‘By God, I do not blame myself for opposing you, but he who forsakes God will be forsaken.’ Then he went to the men and said, ‘God’s command is right. A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the Sons of Israel.’ Then he sat down and his head was struck off.”
The men were killed, en masse, the women sex slaves and children became slaves.[/quote]
From the two paragraphs preceding
In all accounts, the appointed arbitrator was Sa’d ibn Mua’dh, a leading man among the Aws. During the Battle of the Trench, he had been one of Muhammad’s emissaries to the Quarayza (see above)[55] and now was dying from a wound he had received later in the battle.[50][51][52][57] When Sa’d arrived, his fellow Aws pleaded for leniency towards the Qurayza and on his request pledged that they would abide by his decision.[13] He then decreed the sentence according to the Torah, declaring that “the men should be killed, the property divided, and the women and children taken as captives”. Muhammad approved of the ruling, calling it similar to “God’s” judgment.[50][51][52][57] ChirÄ?gh ʼAlÄ« (1885) argues that this statement may have referred to “king” or “ruler” rather than God.[62]
Sa’d dismissed the pleas of the Aws, according to Watt because being close to death and concerned with his afterlife, he put what he considered “his duty to God and the Muslim community” before tribal allegiance.[12] Tariq Ramadan argues that Muhammad deviated from his earlier, more lenient treatment of prisoners as this was seen “as sign of weakness if not madness”,[56] Peterson concurs that the Muslims wanted to deter future treachery by setting an example with severe punishment.[13] Lings reports that Sa’ad feared that if expelled, the Qurayza would join the Nadir in the fight against the Muslims.[17]
You “forgot” one tidbit from your source.
I wouldn’t laugh at such things, but I find it highly ironic given the nature of our discussion.
So, just out of curiosity - which race(s) is it that the bloodthirsty Jews hate to no end?
Or is it only hateful from Muslims?
Insofar as I am gonna get pulled through all this - I can’t just leave that out… it does come from your source.
Second paragraph runs through a bunch of political considerations about what the best move might be in the given situation. You ask - so what? Because if they are war gaming different outcomes then hate isn’t the prime motivation. Don’t act like there lives are also not on the line.
more
[quote]After the Battle of the Trench in 627, the Jews of Banu Qurayza were accused of conspiring with the Meccans. Though Qurayza does not appear to have committed any overt hostile act[15] and been overtly correct in their behaviour,[16] they had most likely[16][15] been involved in negotiations with the enemy."[15][17] Marco Scholler believes the Banu Qurayza were “openly, probably actively,” supporting Meccans and their allies.[18] Nasr writes that it was discovered that Qurayzah had been complicit with the enemy during the Battle.[19]
The Qurayza were fought and then defeated in battle, and then were allowed an arbitrator to decide their punishment. A previously allied tribe, Aws, pleaded with Muhammad for him to select an arbitrator from within the ranks of Aws. Banu Qurayza were appointed Sa’d ibn Mua’dh, a leading man among the allied Aws, a Jewish tribe that converted to Islam, whom they believed would judge in their favour. Sa’d asked the tribe which law they should be judged under, the Jewish or Muslim, and there was unanimous decision among the tribal leaders that they wished to be judged by their own Jewish laws. Incidentally the punishment for the crime of deception and betrayal against an ally within Jewish sources such as the Torah [20] was the death of all the men and enslavement of the women and children. Sa’d passed an execution sentence against the Qurayza and 600-900 Qurayza men were beheaded (except for the few who chose to convert to Islam), all women and children enslaved, and their properties confiscated.[21] Watt writes that some of the Arab tribe of Aws wanted to honour their old alliance with Qurayza, are said to asked Muhammad to forgive the Qurayza for their sake as Muhammad had previously forgiven the Nadir for the sake of Abd-Allah ibn Ubayy.
A minority of Muslim scholars reject the incident holding that Ibn Ishaq, the first biographer of Muhammad, supposedly gathered many details of the incident from descendants of the Qurayza Jews themselves. These descendants allegedly embellished or manufactured details of the incident by borrowing from histories of Jewish persecutions during Roman times.[22] Watt, however, finds this argument “not entirely convincing.”[23][/quote]
That last paragraph is “not entirely convincing” to me either. It doesn’t need to be.
If the source is trustworthy then I think its fair to say that the punishment was harsh but not hateful. Others may disagree.
If you say that the source is not trustworthy then I must point out what we are really discussing here. “The Muslim mind” - as if there is only one. So that means we use Muslim sources when in doubt. If you try telling me those sources are all a lie - then its a different discussion. Just a preempting in case you try it.
If you find that Quran verse which confused you let me know. You’ll find some which do talk bad about Jews - but none like you claimed. Quran is extremely clear that we are all individuals. Those are general statements in specific situations. Not a one size fits all, for all time. Others may claim it to be - I never denied that they would.
But I’m not signing my name under a statement that says they are the majority. As I said before I’m not in a position to do that. I take it a step further - for me to do that would be to bear false witness
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]squating_bear wrote:
There is most likely a bunch of them which hate Israel. How big that bunch is - I can’t say.
There is most likely a bunch less of them which hate Jews as a race. How much smaller that bunch is - I can’t say
[/quote]
Hate to break it to you, but death-to-Jews is a basic hadith of islam. Here:
The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews , when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).Sahih Muslim, 41:6985, see also Sahih Muslim, 41:6981, Sahih Muslim, 41:6982, Sahih Muslim, 41:6983, Sahih Muslim, 41:6984, Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:56:791,(Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:177)[/quote]
That hadith is a supposed prophecy of the End of Days. Not a commandment for all time.
I ask you for your supposed Quran verses that will provide documentation of your claims - and then you give me something from the future?. As I said though - off the charts
[quote]
Want head Sunni version of this:[/quote]
Nah I’m good. There is no “head Sunni”
[quote]
How about Egyptian Salafi islamic scholar Muhammad Hussein Yacoub:
“We must believe that our fighting with the Jews is eternal, and it will not end until the final battle…You must believe that we will fight, defeat, and annihilate them, until not a single Jew remains on the face of the Earth…As for you Jews â?? the curse of Allah upon you. The curse of Allah upon you, whose ancestors were apes and pigs. You Jews have sown hatred in our hearts, and we have bequeathed it to our children and grandchildren. You will not survive as long as a single one of us remains…Oh Jews, may the curse of Allah be upon you. Oh Jews… Oh Allah, bring Your wrath, punishment, and torment down upon them. Allah, we pray that you transform them again, and make the Muslims rejoice again in seeing them as apes and pigs. You pigs of the earth! You pigs of the earth!”
Etc. I could fill pages.[/quote]
It wouldn’t matter if you did fill pages. Not having anything to do with being in denial. (Damn Tirib - I’m slowly starting to adapt your posting style into mine!) There is an infinitely large difference between claiming a root problem at the source with Quran and Muhammad vs. claiming that you could fill pages nowadays.
If I filled pages of supposed Christians who hated Jews, what would that tell us - about Jesus and / or Christians? Now how about if I took those pages to Iran and played off of there assumptions / emotions? If you pay attention I’m not saying you took there words out of context. I’m saying that there words help determine the context of that speech. Or even that imam - but not the context of an entire society as a whole
[quote]orion wrote:
He added: "Anyone who loves freedom and justice must strive for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the way for world justice and freedom
Cant be a good Catholic without at least some reading comprehension with all the encyclicas and such.
Then, selective reading of course also helps.
I am sitting on the fence on this issue. [/quote]
Do you not realise that “the Zionist regime” is Israel? So essentially, you’re on the fence regarding the wisdom and morality of Ahmedinejad’s desire to destroy Israel.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
That he wants the Zionist Regime (OMGZ!!!) to dissappear …
[/quote]
Like, poof, disappear? Annihilate certainly doesn’t sound like waiting for some spontaneous event. So, what does he mean by annihilate? By what actions?
[/quote]
How would I know?
Suddenly people want ME to interpret something into his speeches?
They are what they are.
BUT, if you want someone to read between, over, under and around the lines for you, I might have a few names for you. [/quote]
There’s no need to “interpret” anything. Ahmedinejad’s rhetoric is very straightforward. He wants to see the destruction of Israel, and is pandering to the overwhelming support for anti-Semitism in Muslim-majority countries in and around the Middle East.
[quote]hueyOT wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
He added: "Anyone who loves freedom and justice must strive for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the way for world justice and freedom
Cant be a good Catholic without at least some reading comprehension with all the encyclicas and such.
Then, selective reading of course also helps.
I am sitting on the fence on this issue. [/quote]
Do you not realise that “the Zionist regime” is Israel? So essentially, you’re on the fence regarding the wisdom and morality of Ahmedinejad’s desire to destroy Israel.
[/quote]
No its not.
[quote]hueyOT wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
That he wants the Zionist Regime (OMGZ!!!) to dissappear …
[/quote]
Like, poof, disappear? Annihilate certainly doesn’t sound like waiting for some spontaneous event. So, what does he mean by annihilate? By what actions?
[/quote]
How would I know?
Suddenly people want ME to interpret something into his speeches?
They are what they are.
BUT, if you want someone to read between, over, under and around the lines for you, I might have a few names for you. [/quote]
There’s no need to “interpret” anything. Ahmedinejad’s rhetoric is very straightforward. He wants to see the destruction of Israel, and is pandering to the overwhelming support for anti-Semitism in Muslim-majority countries in and around the Middle East.[/quote]
Maybe he does, but he has not said so.
And yes he is pandering to antisemitism, though I would argue that Arab antisemitism is not quite the same as European or American antisemitism.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]hueyOT wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
He added: "Anyone who loves freedom and justice must strive for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the way for world justice and freedom
Cant be a good Catholic without at least some reading comprehension with all the encyclicas and such.
Then, selective reading of course also helps.
I am sitting on the fence on this issue. [/quote]
Do you not realise that “the Zionist regime” is Israel? So essentially, you’re on the fence regarding the wisdom and morality of Ahmedinejad’s desire to destroy Israel.
[/quote]
No its not.
[/quote]
Without Zionism, Israel won’t be Israel. The basic foundation of Israel is Zionism. To reject Zionism is to reject Jewish nationhood and self-determination.
[quote]hueyOT wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]hueyOT wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
He added: "Anyone who loves freedom and justice must strive for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the way for world justice and freedom
Cant be a good Catholic without at least some reading comprehension with all the encyclicas and such.
Then, selective reading of course also helps.
I am sitting on the fence on this issue. [/quote]
Do you not realise that “the Zionist regime” is Israel? So essentially, you’re on the fence regarding the wisdom and morality of Ahmedinejad’s desire to destroy Israel.
[/quote]
No its not.
[/quote]
Without Zionism, Israel won’t be Israel. The basic foundation of Israel is Zionism. To reject Zionism is to reject Jewish nationhood and self-determination.
[/quote]
You sound like Ahmadinejad.