I feel this speaks to how you’re a natural hinger and NOT a natural squatter. You squat WITH a hinge. Dan John talks about the 4 quadrants of lifters: pushers, pullers, squatters and hingers. Push and pull is upper body, squat and hinge is lower. We all know guys that can bench a Buick but can’t do a single chin up, dudes that are champion climbers and can’t bench their bodyweight, and there are dudes with 900lb deadlifts and 400lb squats, and you have world record squatters with not great deadlifts (unless they cheat with sumo). Then we cross divide: you determine if you’re a push/hinger, a pull/squatter, etc etc.
All this to say that it’s worth recognizing how you’re built and how that will factor into your training. What I find worth appreciating with this is that, when it’s time to get BIGGER, I do the things I’m BAD at (squat programs always make me grow). When it’s time to get stronger, I do the things I’m good at.
The main thing I am seeing here other than a lack of back tightness your knees caving in as soon as you initiate the squat.
Can I ask, if you do a goblet squat with a heavy kettle bell, are you able to open your taint keep your knees out and squat back up without your knees caving in. I am definitely not an expert here mate, but if it was me I would be trying to fix that knee cave. I am not sure if that highlights weak quads or glutes maybe @T3hPwnisher or @wiseman83 can offer more insight.
Thanks @T3hPwnisher ! Definitely a pull hinger! 90lb best weighted chinup, thats gotta be top 1% or better of the general public haha.
@simo74 and @LoRez and @wiseman83 do please bear in mind that today’s squat videos were especially bad as i was trying to keep weight the same while experimenting with a major form change. It was a failure, i was loose, tweaked my back, etc but its not representative of my typical squat, which you saw 2 days previous.
Yes i can goblet squat without the knee cave, but even in my “groove” if i get heavy enough yes there is some knee cave i think.
Some is ok and pretty normal, but it can be a symptom of other issues. Again not really qualified to diagnose, just throwing out thoughts and observations. I seem to think you gave mentioned weak glutes or trouble activating the glutes before, the knees couls also be a symptom of this.
What did you do to make you glutes bigger since you last said they were a weakness ?
BSS and other glute-focused activities. During my 8 weeks of “push-pull-leg” 3/day split I started every session with glutes even on push and pull days.
They don’t seem to have grown LOL.
I used to think that knee-cave was a thing to be concerned about but then watched a lot of high-level olympic lifters squatting. They all seemed to do it, especially as the glutes kicked in.
Look at how those dudes are constructed though: LONG torsos and short legs: built to squat. When their knees cave in, it’s not NEAR the lever arm of someone built to hinge. These guys tend to be the exception that proves the rule.
I don’t like the knees at all on that 225.
Definitely more Bad Girls to help with this IMO.
I always squatted and deadlifted barefoot, only had minor issues with caving knees. I dont squat anymore unless my first like 7 choices for heavy quads are taken, but i notice my knees are happier if my heels are elevated a bit - for all heavy quad exercises. This may help.
You may also find that your knees are more stable if you “grab” the floor with your toes… as if you were trying to hold it between your toes and heels.
Wowzers. Just caught up on this thread, and I am glad that i did - some real gems of wisdom on display here. The insight from @T3hPwnisher is invaliable as always!
I think, @jdm135, that we are incredibly similar lifter types. I am a Terrible Squatter. 200kg lifetime max, vs a 272.5kg lifetime deadlift Max. My Bench is OKAY, at 150kg, but my weigthed chins aint bad either at circa 50kg added weight for a couple of reps. I gave my bench EVERYTHING for that 150kg, LOL. And i do mean everything.
Anyway, I digress. Back to yout Lifting, which is what this thread is actually about haha.
That knee cave, to me, as Simpson mentioned above, looks like a glute issue.
Weak glutes? MAYBE not. Poor use of your glutes is likely more the issue. Ive had this same problem. What i do before both squats ans deadlifts for that matter, is Put My Glutes On The Map. I have to, or everything is shit.
Its incredible simple. I march on the spot without any balance assistance (one leg at a time, 20 reps a peice on one leg, then the other). Literally just lifting my knee until the thigh is perpendicular to my hip. The i drop to the floor and do the same amount of reps with the the bird dog move - which helps bring the upper body into it all a little also. And if i feel i need something else, i’ll also add single leg glute bridges, then finally i will goblet squat for a set of 10, then head for the squat rack. NOTHING puts my glutes on the map quite like this little pre-workout workout. And if my legs are feeling particularly lazy and retarded, i’ll add light ham curls and leg extensions to the mix also. It sounds like a lot…but its not.
Wisey thanks! Yeah your ratios sound similar to mine (much respectably higher in absolute terms of course)
For the bird dogs, does your routine include raising the opposite arm as well?
Ill give this a try!
@jdm135 I went down the upright/squat morning rabbit hole a while ago. I squat almost identically to Layne in the video that @T3hPwnisher posted, and very similar to you.
I also am squatting solely for the purpose of having a stronger squat and what I found helps the most is back tightness and not going past parallel (maybe even slightly above… I’m not perfect!). A coach I had for a little bit also advised me to try and tuck my hips in slightly to prevent my ass from protruding beyond what he deemed too much, this is to keep as neutral a spine as possible from top to bottom.
Closer to max I have felt my mid/upper back slightly rounding while pushing off the floor, leading me to believe that my limiting factor in squats is actually my back strength/tightness and not my legs. The stronger my back is, specifically my mid and upper back, the better and easier squats feel. As horrible as they are, high rep seated good mornings and super high rep deadlifts (think Widowmakers pushed until form failure) did a lot for my upper and mid back strength, and just general core strength.
For reference on how far I pushed them
High rep deadlifts may also help you to engage your glutes as long as you cue “hips to bar” and keep the bar as close to your body as possible. I will typically draw blood from my shins and irritate my quads due to how tight I keep the bar to my body and my body to the bar.
My glutes have grown like crazy since I started lifting without any direct glute work and I believe it is solely due to high rep deadlifts.
Here are a few examples of my squats
Reps
Closer to max
As you can see in the “max” video, my legs have no problem pushing off the floor and all of the weight gets lifted by my mid back trying to compensate for the weight shifting forward due to the slight rounding out of the hole.
So all of this to say, for a stronger squat, lean into your strengths, drop the bar a little bit lower and good morning that fucker.
3/8/2024 - Friday
Powerlifting Primer week 1 day 3 Back is still thrown from Wednesday’s failed science experiment. Lower back is broken glass. Hurts to move. Altered the work today to accommodate.
Deadlift or SLDL 3x10x135 (Could barely do this, back was HURTING.)
Pullups, BW, 3x10
Press, 3x10, 65,75,75
Front squat, 3x10x95lb (This was a good choice)
Bench press, 3x10x135
Biceps and triceps, 3 sets of each superset so I could feel good.
Weather depending I was looking forward to some active watersports this weekend. I hope my lower back gets back together sufficiently to enable this.
3/11/2024 Monday
Random day at the gym. Not structured.
Lower back STILL cranky. The weekend was cloudy and “cold” so no beach trips, just a nice hike with the family and lots of getting-stuff-done at the house.
Due to the lower back I’m not ready to start powerlifting today, still. Instead I did a BUNCH of glute-focused stuff, mostly not worth logging, including 12 minutes on the stairmaster which warmed me up nicely.
For variety I also did weighted pullups. With 50lb I got 3 great reps. With 75lbs I got “3 reps”, the first one was really good, the second one maybe a bit short, and the 3rd one got to about eye level, cursed at the bar and held with all I had, but couldn’t go up any higher. It was good though. Felt badass.
The other movements aren’t worth logging - BSS, tried single-leg RDL…
@T3hPwnisher recommended this template as an opportunity for simple workouts with heavy powerlifts AND high-rep efforts. Gave it a try today as my back felt normal again, and it didn’t disappoint.
I didn’t calculate my percentages but got a feel for it nonetheless.
Squat: 5x135, 5x185, 5x225, 21x135. The last set is an “amrap” The percentages here are all over the map. I like the first-set weight, I don’t like the last-set weight. We’ll see what I come up with when I calculate %TM.
Bench press: 5x135, 5x155, 5x175, rest-pause 135 for 13-6-7 reps - I think. I may have misremembered.
Weighted pullup: Went with 20lbs. After a warmup set of 3, one rest-pause set: 7-4-5.
EZ bar triceps extension, standing. Used 50lb. My elbows don’t like it and one R-P set isn’t a good feel for my triceps, maybe I’ll change this.
Abs: 20-10-5 captain’s chair and 20-10-5 decline situps, supersettted. My abs need some work!
Glute-ham raises or whatever you call it, one long BW set, actually felt kinda good.
That’s the RX for the day, I had extra time so knocked out a set of biceps curls and one quick set of lateral raises for vanity’s sake.
I’ll be roughly two weeks behind you running this program. I loved it the last time I did it and got some pretty decent physique improvements, too. I’m excited to see you tackle it!
Are you doing the template from beyond or the 6 week challenge? (Edit: I take that back as I’m realizing they’re the same thing)
