Affirmative Action Ruling

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Affirmative action makes me ill.

I got into MIT back in the day where there with anti-quotas for Jews and Asians (as in, we scored higher than white non-Jews) so they cut us down to reflect “diversity” because they didn’t want the Asians and Jews taking over the campuses.

Jews were not deserved of AA because, as surely know, we’ve never faced discrimination or persecution of any kind.

The entire concept of AA: (1) ignores imperfect IQ distribution across peoples (a hard fact people ignore) and (2) has, in the 40 years it’s been tried, done nothing to “close the gap.”

That said, I did appreciate the college admitting unqualified people so I could be assured some anchors in the bell curve when grades came.

[/quote]

There’s actually more to what you bring up… It’s kinda funny you only bring up affirmative action against Jews and Asians, because there are quotas in place that really keep Asians out of schools in places like Harvard.

If it were all about GPA and donating time to the community, and not about greasing the the wheels with donations and alma mater politics, what race do you think would be the primary one in Harvard and Princeton?

All of you talking about anti race quotas need to really think about the free market, and who would end up in those schools, if getting into them were based purely off of merit. I don’t mean to sound like that stupid chick from the UCLA campus with her Ching Chong Ling Long, but… I’m not even kidding.

How many kids do you think have insane SAT scores, extra curricular up he wazoo, 4.9 gpa who play some sort of classical instrument are turned away from Harvard because of anti Asian quotas? Shit, if there are no quotas in those places it will be hard for white people to get in. Black and Brown folk would become extreme minorities. This is going to interesting places lol. [/quote]

It’s definitely a deep topic beyond the “theyz lettin’ in people over mee!”. I think jewbacca hit it on the head with the political slant. It’s used as a voting tool. If I can placate people with a statement of “I’ll make sure you get a leg up over the rich people” (which I know, I’m generalizing, but let’s face it: it’s either viewed as a urban vs. suburbia problem, or a race problem), then I know I’ll have a base of people that are voting for me because I appear to be working for their best interest. I don’t believe there is a cut and dry solution though. We could rate school systems, we could focus more on a person’s entire school career, or we could even start pushing people into the trades skill set as opposed to college. But all of those have a disadvantaged attached as well.

You’re absolutely right with the issues that might be raised if we go to a purely competitive system. But…is that okay? Is it okay if Harvard is forced to become 80% asian? haha. I know a lot of the alum would be up in arms over such an idea.

Here’s another angle to think about (and I’m just spouting ideas for the fun of a keyboard and a day-off): Is college necessary for happiness? We so often connect economic prosperity to happiness, and to an extent that’s true, but do we pressure people into universities as the only option, or do we start pushing them towards trades, skill sets and apprenticeships?

I don’t know, I’m all over the place. Can you guys even discern where my sporadic mind is going right now?

42

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Affirmative action makes me ill.

I got into MIT back in the day where there with anti-quotas for Jews and Asians (as in, we scored higher than white non-Jews) so they cut us down to reflect “diversity” because they didn’t want the Asians and Jews taking over the campuses.

Jews were not deserved of AA because, as surely know, we’ve never faced discrimination or persecution of any kind.

The entire concept of AA: (1) ignores imperfect IQ distribution across peoples (a hard fact people ignore) and (2) has, in the 40 years it’s been tried, done nothing to “close the gap.”

That said, I did appreciate the college admitting unqualified people so I could be assured some anchors in the bell curve when grades came.

[/quote]

There’s actually more to what you bring up… It’s kinda funny you only bring up affirmative action against Jews and Asians, because there are quotas in place that really keep Asians out of schools in places like Harvard.

If it were all about GPA and donating time to the community, and not about greasing the the wheels with donations and alma mater politics, what race do you think would be the primary one in Harvard and Princeton?

All of you talking about anti race quotas need to really think about the free market, and who would end up in those schools, if getting into them were based purely off of merit. I don’t mean to sound like that stupid chick from the UCLA campus with her Ching Chong Ling Long, but… I’m not even kidding.

How many kids do you think have insane SAT scores, extra curricular up he wazoo, 4.9 gpa who play some sort of classical instrument are turned away from Harvard because of anti Asian quotas? Shit, if there are no quotas in those places it will be hard for white people to get in. Black and Brown folk would become extreme minorities. This is going to interesting places lol.

I know one explanation for Asian excellence in schools has been explained away by culture but nobody seems to believe it. [/quote]

I missed commenting on your last point: you bring up a thought provoking concept. Cultural influence can have a big effect on how a person does in school. I guess the question at that point would be: where does the effect stop and start, and what is the public sphere’s role in supporting or overcoming that cultural influence?

For instance, a black student that goes to a great school system, (i think of my own in particular: 90% white in an upper-middle class area) has a culture around him that promotes excellence and discipline. But his home life might differ, so do we give him “points” for that? Switch it around to the white student in a failing urban school system, and how is he doing? If his home life is great but his education is not, what do we do for him, if anything?

There’s so many variables to the issue…kinda makes your head spin

43

[quote]Zen Taco wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Affirmative action makes me ill.

I got into MIT back in the day where there with anti-quotas for Jews and Asians (as in, we scored higher than white non-Jews) so they cut us down to reflect “diversity” because they didn’t want the Asians and Jews taking over the campuses.

Jews were not deserved of AA because, as surely know, we’ve never faced discrimination or persecution of any kind.

The entire concept of AA: (1) ignores imperfect IQ distribution across peoples (a hard fact people ignore) and (2) has, in the 40 years it’s been tried, done nothing to “close the gap.”

That said, I did appreciate the college admitting unqualified people so I could be assured some anchors in the bell curve when grades came.

[/quote]

There’s actually more to what you bring up… It’s kinda funny you only bring up affirmative action against Jews and Asians, because there are quotas in place that really keep Asians out of schools in places like Harvard.

If it were all about GPA and donating time to the community, and not about greasing the the wheels with donations and alma mater politics, what race do you think would be the primary one in Harvard and Princeton?

All of you talking about anti race quotas need to really think about the free market, and who would end up in those schools, if getting into them were based purely off of merit. I don’t mean to sound like that stupid chick from the UCLA campus with her Ching Chong Ling Long, but… I’m not even kidding.

How many kids do you think have insane SAT scores, extra curricular up he wazoo, 4.9 gpa who play some sort of classical instrument are turned away from Harvard because of anti Asian quotas? Shit, if there are no quotas in those places it will be hard for white people to get in. Black and Brown folk would become extreme minorities. This is going to interesting places lol.

I know one explanation for Asian excellence in schools has been explained away by culture but nobody seems to believe it. [/quote]

I missed commenting on your last point: you bring up a thought provoking concept. Cultural influence can have a big effect on how a person does in school. I guess the question at that point would be: where does the effect stop and start, and what is the public sphere’s role in supporting or overcoming that cultural influence?

For instance, a black student that goes to a great school system, (i think of my own in particular: 90% white in an upper-middle class area) has a culture around him that promotes excellence and discipline. But his home life might differ, so do we give him “points” for that? Switch it around to the white student in a failing urban school system, and how is he doing? If his home life is great but his education is not, what do we do for him, if anything?

There’s so many variables to the issue…kinda makes your head spin
[/quote]

Well, I don’t think quotas will ever go away in Ivy League Schools. There are too many alma mater politics, and they are private institutions… What might happen is other schools might end up with the better students and come to prominence. Imagine those possible scenarios?

What if some sort of Public school that allows foreigners to buy in, like a U.C. or I.T school came to prominence and out performed a Harvard or M.I.T due to only allowing the highest quality students? It would take a while, but it opens up all kinds of weird scenarios.

44

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
AA, lower standards for minorities, etc., are simply the government’s way of avoiding the real problems that need to be fixed. But it’s easier to tell people that they make it easier for (a few, very few) black kids to get into college than to fix the communities they come from. The real tragedy of these programs is that they only help a few individuals instead of creating real socioeconomic change. Often, they don’t even help the people they were originally intended to help. You have first generation kids from African and West Indian immigrants taking advantage of AA. You have kids with a white father and black mother who grew up in affluent suburbs taking advantage of AA.
[/quote]

Well, I agree with you almost entirely here, but…how does the government fix a community? I don’t believe that has ever happened before. I believe they’ve almost universally made them worse by bungling.[/quote]
Legalize drugs.

45

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Poor white kids do better than poor black kids. Poverty is not the only factor. [/quote]

Really?

Do you have a link to this? I would be interested.

I grew up in a lower class neighborhood, and I would like to see how poor whites somehow still score better than poor minorities.

Thanks![/quote]
Just Google poor whites kids vs poor black kids. There was a study done in NJ about how much money schools spend per student and they found that poor white towns spent less (because they got less) than poor cities that were mostly made up of minorities. Some people want funds to be based on economics and not race. They also found that in spite of the disparity in funding poor whites did better.

46

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Poor white kids do better than poor black kids. Poverty is not the only factor. [/quote]

Really?

Do you have a link to this? I would be interested.

I grew up in a lower class neighborhood, and I would like to see how poor whites somehow still score better than poor minorities.

Thanks![/quote]
Just Google poor whites kids vs poor black kids. There was a study done in NJ about how much money schools spend per student and they found that poor white towns spent less (because they got less) than poor cities that were mostly made up of minorities. Some people want funds to be based on economics and not race. They also found that in spite of the disparity in funding poor whites did better. [/quote]

Why do you think that is? Considering that poor whites outnumber poor minorities by a wide margin…due of course to being 75% of the population.

47

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
AA, lower standards for minorities, etc., are simply the government’s way of avoiding the real problems that need to be fixed. But it’s easier to tell people that they make it easier for (a few, very few) black kids to get into college than to fix the communities they come from. The real tragedy of these programs is that they only help a few individuals instead of creating real socioeconomic change. Often, they don’t even help the people they were originally intended to help. You have first generation kids from African and West Indian immigrants taking advantage of AA. You have kids with a white father and black mother who grew up in affluent suburbs taking advantage of AA.

And women, of any race, benefit from AA as much as any black male, maybe more. [/quote]

I’m quoting this because it supports your study of poor black vs poor whites, and I completely agree that the issue stems from something much deeper than skin color. It’s likely that past issues of skin color have had a hand in today’s environment, but there’s more to it than that. I was reading an article about a man in one of the Detroit neighborhoods that is rife with unemployment and boarded up houses. He wanted to do something for the community, so he tried to get people together for farmer’s markets, clean-ups, art in the park and the like. The article talked about how discouraged he was to see people completely uninterested in what he was trying to do. Couple that with situations like Trader Joe’s which was chased out of a down-and-out neighborhood by political leaders, and you just scratch your head at the underlying mental and emotional problems that arise from living in that situation. To me that’s chicken or the egg.

Money obviously doesn’t solve the issue, considering poor minority neighborhoods get more money, yet still don’t do as well.

48

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Poor white kids do better than poor black kids. Poverty is not the only factor. [/quote]

Really?

Do you have a link to this? I would be interested.

I grew up in a lower class neighborhood, and I would like to see how poor whites somehow still score better than poor minorities.

Thanks![/quote]
Just Google poor whites kids vs poor black kids. There was a study done in NJ about how much money schools spend per student and they found that poor white towns spent less (because they got less) than poor cities that were mostly made up of minorities. Some people want funds to be based on economics and not race. They also found that in spite of the disparity in funding poor whites did better. [/quote]

Why do you think that is? Considering that poor whites outnumber poor minorities by a wide margin…due of course to being 75% of the population. [/quote]
My first guess would be that poor whites suffer from, obviously, poverty but the other social ills are not as, I don’t know if this is the right way to say it, culturally engrained and intense as they are when it comes to poor blacks. Prison stats, murder rates, other violent crime rates, tell us that something is going on in one community more than another. In other words, poverty in and of itself is not the sole reason for higher crime rates.

In general I think poor blacks believe that the government (the “white man”) will save them and become dependent upon it (which is how the government wants it). It probably traces its roots back to Lincoln as every freedom that blacks have received from the end of the Civil War to today were given by the government. Poor whites have a greater chance of having been raised to believe that they can’t look to anyone but themselves if they want to get ahead. When people are “trained” to have the mindset that they will have food and shelter and spending cash courtesy of the government regardless of how well they do in school or whether or not they get a job or career it doesn’t serve to motivate them much. Especially when they’ve been trained to believe that what they get given to them is all they really need and all they should expect. Poor black kids still have iPhones and Nikes, what more do they need? There’s a mindset that you either get rich via sports or entertainment or, you stay poor and in the ghetto. There is no middle.

I lived in the ghetto and I worked in various ghetto schools. There really is a different way of thinking.

49

tack on a victim mentality. I know that may ruffle some feathers, but when you’re repeatedly told that your group has been held down, disadvantaged, attacked or maligned by a certain group of people, naturally you’ll begin thinking that way and that there’s nothing you can do about it. Some of it is true, but what does it benefit a person to always be told how they’ve been lesser or hated?

Especially coming from the political angle, it creates a self-replicating mindset that is hard to get out of. When that political angle swoops in and says, “We’ll provide everything you need and hey, we hate the rich and white man too,” then naturally a person will lean towards that. I’ve noticed the different way of thinking in my friends who grew up in the rough areas of Detroit.

Absolutely amazing people, but there’s just a different outlook on things towards that way of thinking, despite the fact that they themselves have raised up out of it and done well for themselves. Even without the help of the government.

50

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
But the entire supposed purpose of AA is to make up for systemic discrimination/persecution.

Well, what about Jewish people? I kind of remember something happening involving special showers recently. [/quote]

Perhaps you further remember that those special showers were in Europe and not the United States and therefore have exactly nothing to do with American affirmative action as a “correction” for American slavery/political oppression.

[quote]
AA is just a giveaway to a special interest group in the Democratic party, in return for votes.

That’s it. There is no other justification. [/quote]

Could I borrow the crystal ball that you use to discover the secret (and invariably nefarious) motives of entire groups of people?

51

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Poor white kids do better than poor black kids. Poverty is not the only factor. [/quote]

Really?

Do you have a link to this? I would be interested.

I grew up in a lower class neighborhood, and I would like to see how poor whites somehow still score better than poor minorities.

Thanks![/quote]
Just Google poor whites kids vs poor black kids. There was a study done in NJ about how much money schools spend per student and they found that poor white towns spent less (because they got less) than poor cities that were mostly made up of minorities. Some people want funds to be based on economics and not race. They also found that in spite of the disparity in funding poor whites did better. [/quote]

Why do you think that is? Considering that poor whites outnumber poor minorities by a wide margin…due of course to being 75% of the population. [/quote]
My first guess would be that poor whites suffer from, obviously, poverty but the other social ills are not as, I don’t know if this is the right way to say it, culturally engrained and intense as they are when it comes to poor blacks. Prison stats, murder rates, other violent crime rates, tell us that something is going on in one community more than another. In other words, poverty in and of itself is not the sole reason for higher crime rates.

In general I think poor blacks believe that the government (the “white man”) will save them and become dependent upon it (which is how the government wants it). It probably traces its roots back to Lincoln as every freedom that blacks have received from the end of the Civil War to today were given by the government. Poor whites have a greater chance of having been raised to believe that they can’t look to anyone but themselves if they want to get ahead. When people are “trained” to have the mindset that they will have food and shelter and spending cash courtesy of the government regardless of how well they do in school or whether or not they get a job or career it doesn’t serve to motivate them much. Especially when they’ve been trained to believe that what they get given to them is all they really need and all they should expect. Poor black kids still have iPhones and Nikes, what more do they need? There’s a mindset that you either get rich via sports or entertainment or, you stay poor and in the ghetto. There is no middle.

I lived in the ghetto and I worked in various ghetto schools. There really is a different way of thinking. [/quote]

Much of it has to do with simple environment.

Some kids are poor and live in run down but still more or less “normal” neighborhoods (places where one wouldn’t feel unsafe if one’s car were to break down while passing through). Some kids are poor and live in apocalyptic shitholes heavy on gangs and crack.

Poor white kids tend toward the former, whereas the latter are heavily black.

52

^ In other words, not all low-income childhoods are as difficult to overcome, or as filled with pitfalls, as others.

53

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Thank god for Chico State and a good SAT score. Or me and my 2.9 high school GPA might be driving a cab. [/quote]

Chico State!

54

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
AA, lower standards for minorities, etc., are simply the government’s way of avoiding the real problems that need to be fixed. But it’s easier to tell people that they make it easier for (a few, very few) black kids to get into college than to fix the communities they come from. The real tragedy of these programs is that they only help a few individuals instead of creating real socioeconomic change. Often, they don’t even help the people they were originally intended to help. You have first generation kids from African and West Indian immigrants taking advantage of AA. You have kids with a white father and black mother who grew up in affluent suburbs taking advantage of AA.
[/quote]

Well, I agree with you almost entirely here, but…how does the government fix a community? I don’t believe that has ever happened before. I believe they’ve almost universally made them worse by bungling.[/quote]

How does a government fix a community? Ever been to Nagasaki or Hiroshima?

55

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Poor white kids do better than poor black kids. Poverty is not the only factor. [/quote]

Really?

Do you have a link to this? I would be interested.

I grew up in a lower class neighborhood, and I would like to see how poor whites somehow still score better than poor minorities.

Thanks![/quote]
Just Google poor whites kids vs poor black kids. There was a study done in NJ about how much money schools spend per student and they found that poor white towns spent less (because they got less) than poor cities that were mostly made up of minorities. Some people want funds to be based on economics and not race. They also found that in spite of the disparity in funding poor whites did better. [/quote]

Why do you think that is? Considering that poor whites outnumber poor minorities by a wide margin…due of course to being 75% of the population. [/quote]
My first guess would be that poor whites suffer from, obviously, poverty but the other social ills are not as, I don’t know if this is the right way to say it, culturally engrained and intense as they are when it comes to poor blacks. Prison stats, murder rates, other violent crime rates, tell us that something is going on in one community more than another. In other words, poverty in and of itself is not the sole reason for higher crime rates.

In general I think poor blacks believe that the government (the “white man”) will save them and become dependent upon it (which is how the government wants it). It probably traces its roots back to Lincoln as every freedom that blacks have received from the end of the Civil War to today were given by the government. Poor whites have a greater chance of having been raised to believe that they can’t look to anyone but themselves if they want to get ahead. When people are “trained” to have the mindset that they will have food and shelter and spending cash courtesy of the government regardless of how well they do in school or whether or not they get a job or career it doesn’t serve to motivate them much. Especially when they’ve been trained to believe that what they get given to them is all they really need and all they should expect. Poor black kids still have iPhones and Nikes, what more do they need? There’s a mindset that you either get rich via sports or entertainment or, you stay poor and in the ghetto. There is no middle.

I lived in the ghetto and I worked in various ghetto schools. There really is a different way of thinking. [/quote]

Much of it has to do with simple environment.

Some kids are poor and live in run down but still more or less “normal” neighborhoods (places where one wouldn’t feel unsafe if one’s car were to break down while passing through). Some kids are poor and live in apocalyptic shitholes heavy on gangs and crack.

Poor white kids tend toward the former, whereas the latter are heavily black.[/quote]

I guess I’m asking why that is?

Why is a poor white neighborhood safe and enabling (Z’s words) and a black poor neighborhood a war zone?

That would seem to be the root of the problem.

I grew up in a poor latino neighborhood so my personal experiences don’t really apply.