Affirmative Action Ruling

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

But I think generally speaking it’s less about merit and more about who you know.

james
[/quote]

Yeah, I totally disagree, particularly generally speaking. One without the other isn’t going to be anywhere near as effective as both.

And having both doesn’t mean your network has to come first, in fact, it very much can come after.

I see it with clients, my own firm, and particularly in cases of nepotism.

Without the merit, effort and ability your ceiling is very limited. May be artificially higher than it otherwise would be with a good network, but it is still very much there.

[quote]Severiano wrote:
I’m taking a guess when the racial makeup of schools is really looked at in the next ten years we will see a decline in minority and low income students achieving degrees. [/quote]

Even if they achieved said degrees at the expense of more qualified students?

What of their hard work?

[quote]atypical1 wrote:
How many people do you know where you scratch your head and wonder how they got promoted or how they got that senior role?

[/quote]

None above middle management in larger businesses.

Often when looking at politicians.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
But, basing decisions of employment or admittance to an institution based on merit alone and not on the color of one’s skin is… Perfectly rational. [/quote]

You know, we talk a lot about getting ahead in life based on merit but that’s not really how the world works. Getting ahead is almost solely based on relationships. Even getting into college has become a matter of how many extra curricular activities you’ve participated in since everyone has a 4.9 gpa these days.

So, if you’re a poor kid from the inner city but bright as hell you could be denied entry into college or be passed on that scholarship simply because your school didn’t offer all of those other programs.

I’m not saying that we should have a quota by any means. But we should definitely rethink how we admit kids into college. And no, I don’t know what the answer to that is.

james
[/quote]

Fair enough, but some institutions will admit less qualified minority students to reach a threshold where they receive more state and federal funding. Those students prevent more qualified ones from being admitted in some cases, which is ridiculous.
[/quote]

This.

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
But, basing decisions of employment or admittance to an institution based on merit alone and not on the color of one’s skin is… Perfectly rational. [/quote]

You know, we talk a lot about getting ahead in life based on merit but that’s not really how the world works. Getting ahead is almost solely based on relationships. Even getting into college has become a matter of how many extra curricular activities you’ve participated in since everyone has a 4.9 gpa these days.

So, if you’re a poor kid from the inner city but bright as hell you could be denied entry into college or be passed on that scholarship simply because your school didn’t offer all of those other programs.

I’m not saying that we should have a quota by any means. But we should definitely rethink how we admit kids into college. And no, I don’t know what the answer to that is.

james
[/quote]

Good points, but this is a function of income and not race. Of course income and race are correlated to an extent, but why settle for “probably” when we have “definitely.”

It is good policy for a university to look at low-income kids through the prism of their circumstances. Rich kids buy amazing college applications–they spend their summers building mud huts in Africa (because their parents paid $2,000), they play lacrosse and soccer while poor kids have to go home right after school to take care of their younger brothers because their single mom doesn’t get off work until 6. So it makes sense for admissions officers to understand this.

However, to accept an inferior student because he’s black? Stupid. Very stupid, and a disservice to the student (there is a good amount of data on this). Also, pretty damn racist, if you ask me.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

Good points, but this is a function of income and not race. Of course income and race are correlated to an extent, but why settle for “probably” when we have “definitely.”

It is good policy for a university to look at low-income kids through the prism of their circumstances. Rich kids buy amazing college applications–they spend their summers building mud huts in Africa (because their parents paid $2,000), they play lacrosse and soccer while poor kids have to go home right after school to take care of their younger brothers because their single mom doesn’t get off work until 6. So it makes sense for admissions officers to understand this.

However, to accept an inferior student because he’s black? Stupid. Very stupid, and a disservice to the student (there is a good amount of data on this). Also, pretty damn racist, if you ask me.[/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

james

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

Good points, but this is a function of income and not race. Of course income and race are correlated to an extent, but why settle for “probably” when we have “definitely.”

It is good policy for a university to look at low-income kids through the prism of their circumstances. Rich kids buy amazing college applications–they spend their summers building mud huts in Africa (because their parents paid $2,000), they play lacrosse and soccer while poor kids have to go home right after school to take care of their younger brothers because their single mom doesn’t get off work until 6. So it makes sense for admissions officers to understand this.

However, to accept an inferior student because he’s black? Stupid. Very stupid, and a disservice to the student (there is a good amount of data on this). Also, pretty damn racist, if you ask me.[/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

james
[/quote]

True, after all there are far more poor white students than other ethnicities.

It should be 100% on merit.

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
I’m taking a guess when the racial makeup of schools is really looked at in the next ten years we will see a decline in minority and low income students achieving degrees. [/quote]

Even if they achieved said degrees at the expense of more qualified students?

What of their hard work?[/quote]

To what end to we merit hard work?

Whose to say that someone who goes to an inner city school with less opportunity is working more or less than the kid from a rich suburb going to a private school? Do we look at their grades and assume the kid from the suburbs is working harder based on grades? I’m not saying it is necessarily subjective, but it can be the case that the kid from the inner city is working harder to achieve lower grades. Or didn’t have the quality of teacher or extra curricular things to take part in. Maybe the kid is working after school to pay for books while the advantaged kid can spend that time donating time to the community?

At this point that doesn’t even factor into it though. Right now we are just justifying it all based on some bullshit notion that affirmative action itself is a racist thing used to combat racism as well as lack of opportunity. I’m not saying affirmative action is perfect, but what are we doing to replace it? What about the poor?

If we can all agree that lack of education leads to lack of success, we all agree that an education from the inner city public school is inferior to a private school education from a suburb, what more evidence do we really need to say that one is disadvantaged?

Like I said, it’s sad. Ultimately as a country we fail to keep sight of the big picture, or our own history. Pretty soon college is going to be the advanced school for whites and asians.

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
I’m taking a guess when the racial makeup of schools is really looked at in the next ten years we will see a decline in minority and low income students achieving degrees. [/quote]

Even if they achieved said degrees at the expense of more qualified students?

What of their hard work?[/quote]

To what end to we merit hard work?

Whose to say that someone who goes to an inner city school with less opportunity is working more or less than the kid from a rich suburb going to a private school? Do we look at their grades and assume the kid from the suburbs is working harder based on grades? I’m not saying it is necessarily subjective, but it can be the case that the kid from the inner city is working harder to achieve lower grades. Or didn’t have the quality of teacher or extra curricular things to take part in. Maybe the kid is working after school to pay for books while the advantaged kid can spend that time donating time to the community?

At this point that doesn’t even factor into it though. Right now we are just justifying it all based on some bullshit notion that affirmative action itself is a racist thing used to combat racism as well as lack of opportunity. I’m not saying affirmative action is perfect, but what are we doing to replace it? What about the poor?

If we can all agree that lack of education leads to lack of success, we all agree that an education from the inner city public school is inferior to a private school education from a suburb, what more evidence do we really need to say that one is disadvantaged?

Like I said, it’s sad. Ultimately as a country we fail to keep sight of the big picture, or our own history. Pretty soon college is going to be the advanced school for whites and asians. [/quote]

Maybe the kid who failed every subject is working hardest. Grades are the only possible objective measure we have to evaluate performance. To say that someone may have worked harder even though their grades are lower, and that they should be given preferential treatment is beyond absurd. And affirmative action legislation doesn’t give preferential treatment based on the type of environment the student comes from. It gives preferential treatment based solely on race.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
I’m taking a guess when the racial makeup of schools is really looked at in the next ten years we will see a decline in minority and low income students achieving degrees. [/quote]

Even if they achieved said degrees at the expense of more qualified students?

What of their hard work?[/quote]

To what end to we merit hard work?

Whose to say that someone who goes to an inner city school with less opportunity is working more or less than the kid from a rich suburb going to a private school? Do we look at their grades and assume the kid from the suburbs is working harder based on grades? I’m not saying it is necessarily subjective, but it can be the case that the kid from the inner city is working harder to achieve lower grades. Or didn’t have the quality of teacher or extra curricular things to take part in. Maybe the kid is working after school to pay for books while the advantaged kid can spend that time donating time to the community?

At this point that doesn’t even factor into it though. Right now we are just justifying it all based on some bullshit notion that affirmative action itself is a racist thing used to combat racism as well as lack of opportunity. I’m not saying affirmative action is perfect, but what are we doing to replace it? What about the poor?

If we can all agree that lack of education leads to lack of success, we all agree that an education from the inner city public school is inferior to a private school education from a suburb, what more evidence do we really need to say that one is disadvantaged?

Like I said, it’s sad. Ultimately as a country we fail to keep sight of the big picture, or our own history. Pretty soon college is going to be the advanced school for whites and asians. [/quote]

Maybe the kid who failed every subject is working hardest. Grades are the only possible objective measure we have to evaluate performance. To say that someone may have worked harder even though their grades are lower, and that they should be given preferential treatment is beyond absurd. And affirmative action legislation doesn’t give preferential treatment based on the type of environment the student comes from. It gives preferential treatment based solely on race.[/quote]

Great point. Are we doing anything about it though? I’m not trying to defend affirmative action in that sense, as I also see amongst Asian as well as Whites there are large groups that could be broken down into smaller groups for the sake of identifying people who need, and rate the same sort of help that affirmative action brings.

Maybe it IS time to revamp it to help kids based on family income rather than race.

I know for a fact that there are Asian ethnic groups that tend to score below the mean of Asians in general, and as a result they aren’t very well, “represented” in different colleges and Universities. In that sense it’s unfair to compare someone who is culturally say Amerasian with roots from say Korea vs. an Amerasian with roots from Vietnam and I don’t know say Hmong culture.

It’s unfair also to categorize some kid whose parents are white but factory workers, possibly single parent to an upper class nuclear family from the suburbs.

The thing that is going to be scary is if we do nothing. The thing is, at the end of the day the glaring statistic is going to be the lack of minorities with 4 year degrees or some sort of junior college education. If we don’t do something about it, we will look back and just shake our heads at ourselves.

Scary path we may be going down.

AA, lower standards for minorities, etc., are simply the government’s way of avoiding the real problems that need to be fixed. But it’s easier to tell people that they make it easier for (a few, very few) black kids to get into college than to fix the communities they come from. The real tragedy of these programs is that they only help a few individuals instead of creating real socioeconomic change. Often, they don’t even help the people they were originally intended to help. You have first generation kids from African and West Indian immigrants taking advantage of AA. You have kids with a white father and black mother who grew up in affluent suburbs taking advantage of AA.

And women, of any race, benefit from AA as much as any black male, maybe more.

Brings me back to being on campus when MI was having the first go around with this whole debacle. Considering their argument is that it helps lift up students in poor/failing school districts: doesn’t it put the minority students in inner city schools (aka white students) at an even bigger disadvantage? Why are we using race as a statistic in this regard? Why are we not rating school systems themselves and giving “affirmative action points” without even touching race? Or look closer at income level combined with school systems? But no matter what option, there are plenty better than looking at a student’s skin color, deciding they’ve most likely been disadvantaged some way some how, and pushing them up the ladder for it.

Poor white kids do better than poor black kids. Poverty is not the only factor.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Poor white kids do better than poor black kids. Poverty is not the only factor. [/quote]

Really?

Do you have a link to this? I would be interested.

I grew up in a lower class neighborhood, and I would like to see how poor whites somehow still score better than poor minorities.

Thanks!

Affirmative action makes me ill.

I got into MIT back in the day where there with anti-quotas for Jews and Asians (as in, we scored higher than white non-Jews) so they cut us down to reflect “diversity” because they didn’t want the Asians and Jews taking over the campuses.

Jews were not deserved of AA because, as surely know, we’ve never faced discrimination or persecution of any kind.

The entire concept of AA: (1) ignores imperfect IQ distribution across peoples (a hard fact people ignore) and (2) has, in the 40 years it’s been tried, done nothing to “close the gap.”

That said, I did appreciate the college admitting unqualified people so I could be assured some anchors in the bell curve when grades came.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
AA, lower standards for minorities, etc., are simply the government’s way of avoiding the real problems that need to be fixed. But it’s easier to tell people that they make it easier for (a few, very few) black kids to get into college than to fix the communities they come from. The real tragedy of these programs is that they only help a few individuals instead of creating real socioeconomic change. Often, they don’t even help the people they were originally intended to help. You have first generation kids from African and West Indian immigrants taking advantage of AA. You have kids with a white father and black mother who grew up in affluent suburbs taking advantage of AA.
[/quote]

Well, I agree with you almost entirely here, but…how does the government fix a community? I don’t believe that has ever happened before. I believe they’ve almost universally made them worse by bungling.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Jews were not deserved of AA because, as surely know, we’ve never faced discrimination or persecution of any kind.

[/quote]
this cracked me up

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

That said, I did appreciate the college admitting unqualified people so I could be assured some anchors in the bell curve when grades came.

[/quote]
hahaha. I benefited those extensively in organic chemistry classes. Does that mean affirmative action worked for me?

[quote]Zen Taco wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Jews were not deserved of AA because, as (you) surely know, we’ve never faced discrimination or persecution of any kind.

[/quote]
this cracked me up
[/quote]

Tongue-in-cheek, of course. But the entire supposed purpose of AA is to make up for systemic discrimination/persecution.

Well, what about Jewish people? I kind of remember something happening involving special showers recently.

And can read statistics that Jews — by a long shot — are the biggest victims per capita of hate crimes in the USA.

I even just read about a wanna-be Nazi who stormed a Jewish retirement community in KS (and managed to kill 3 Methodists – smart guy).

Long story short, the entire concept of AA is bullshit.

AA is just a giveaway to a special interest group in the Democratic party, in return for votes.

That’s it. There is no other justification.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Affirmative action makes me ill.

I got into MIT back in the day where there with anti-quotas for Jews and Asians (as in, we scored higher than white non-Jews) so they cut us down to reflect “diversity” because they didn’t want the Asians and Jews taking over the campuses.

Jews were not deserved of AA because, as surely know, we’ve never faced discrimination or persecution of any kind.

The entire concept of AA: (1) ignores imperfect IQ distribution across peoples (a hard fact people ignore) and (2) has, in the 40 years it’s been tried, done nothing to “close the gap.”

That said, I did appreciate the college admitting unqualified people so I could be assured some anchors in the bell curve when grades came.

[/quote]

There’s actually more to what you bring up… It’s kinda funny you only bring up affirmative action against Jews and Asians, because there are quotas in place that really keep Asians out of schools in places like Harvard.

If it were all about GPA and donating time to the community, and not about greasing the the wheels with donations and alma mater politics, what race do you think would be the primary one in Harvard and Princeton?

All of you talking about anti race quotas need to really think about the free market, and who would end up in those schools, if getting into them were based purely off of merit. I don’t mean to sound like that stupid chick from the UCLA campus with her Ching Chong Ling Long, but… I’m not even kidding.

How many kids do you think have insane SAT scores, extra curricular up he wazoo, 4.9 gpa who play some sort of classical instrument are turned away from Harvard because of anti Asian quotas? Shit, if there are no quotas in those places it will be hard for white people to get in. Black and Brown folk would become extreme minorities. This is going to interesting places lol.

I know one explanation for Asian excellence in schools has been explained away by culture but nobody seems to believe it.