Affirmative Action = Affirmative Harm

We had an old thread on this but I can’t find it for the life of me. New evidence seems to support the thesis that affirmative action is actively harming a large percentage of black law students who “benefit” from lowered admissions standards. What is truly damning here is how certain supporters of affirmative action are trying to disallow further research into its actual effects.

[i]Affirmative Action Backfires
Have racial preferences reduced the number of black lawyers?

BY GAIL HERIOT
Sunday, August 26, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT

Three years ago, UCLA law professor Richard Sander published an explosive, fact-based study of the consequences of affirmative action in American law schools in the Stanford Law Review. Most of his findings were grim, and they caused dismay among many of the champions of affirmative action–and indeed, among those who were not.

Easily the most startling conclusion of his research: Mr. Sander calculated that there are fewer black attorneys today than there would have been if law schools had practiced color-blind admissions–about 7.9% fewer by his reckoning. He identified the culprit as the practice of admitting minority students to schools for which they are inadequately prepared. In essence, they have been “matched” to the wrong school.

No one claims the findings in Mr. Sander’s study, “A Systemic Analysis of Affirmative Action in American Law Schools,” are the last word on the subject. Although so far his work has held up to scrutiny at least as well as that of his critics, all fair-minded scholars agree that more research is necessary before the “mismatch thesis” can be definitively accepted or rejected.

Unfortunately, fair-minded scholars are hard to come by when the issue is affirmative action. Some of the same people who argue Mr. Sander’s data are inconclusive are now actively trying to prevent him from conducting follow-up research that might yield definitive answers. If racial preferences really are causing more harm than good, they apparently don’t want you–or anyone else–to know.

Take William Kidder, a University of California staff advisor and co-author of a frequently cited attack of Sander’s study. When Mr. Sander and his co-investigators sought bar passage data from the State Bar of California that would allow analysis by race, Mr. Kidder passionately argued that access should be denied, because disclosure “risks stigmatizing African American attorneys.” At the same time, the Society of American Law Teachers, which leans so heavily to the left it risks falling over sideways, gleefully warned that the state bar would be sued if it cooperated with Mr. Sander.

Sadly, the State Bar’s Committee of Bar Examiners caved under the pressure. The committee members didn’t formally explain their decision to deny Mr. Sander’s request for these data (in which no names would be disclosed), but the root cause is clear: Over the last 40 years, many distinguished citizens–university presidents, judges, philanthropists and other leaders–have built their reputations on their support for race-based admissions. Ordinary citizens have found secure jobs as part of the resulting diversity bureaucracy.

If the policy is not working, they, too, don’t want anyone to know.

The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights hopes that it can persuade the State Bar to reconsider. Its soon-to-be released report on affirmative action in law schools specifically calls for state bar authorities to cooperate with qualified scholars studying the mismatch issue. The recommendation is modest. The commission doesn’t claim that Mr. Sander is right or his critics wrong. It simply seeks to encourage and facilitate important research.

The Commission’s deeper purpose is to remind those who support and administer affirmative action polices that good intentions are not enough. Consequences also matter. And conscious, deliberately chosen ignorance is not a good-faith option.

Mr. Sander’s original article noted that when elite law schools lower their academic standards in order to admit a more racially diverse class, schools one or two tiers down feel they must do the same. As a result, there is now a serious gap in academic credentials between minority and non-minority law students across the pecking order, with the average black student’s academic index more than two standard deviations below that of his average white classmate.

Not surprisingly, such a gap leads to problems. Students who attend schools where their academic credentials are substantially below those of their fellow students tend to perform poorly.

The reason is simple: While some students will outperform their entering academic credentials, just as some students will underperform theirs, most students will perform in the range that their academic credentials predict. As a result, in elite law schools, 51.6% of black students had first-year grade point averages in the bottom 10% of their class as opposed to only 5.6% of white students. Nearly identical performance gaps existed at law schools at all levels. This much is uncontroversial.

Supporters of race-based admissions argue that, despite the likelihood of poor grades, minority students are still better off accepting the benefit of a preference and graduating from a more prestigious school. But Mr. Sander’s research suggests that just the opposite may be true–that law students, no matter what their race, may learn less, not more, when they enroll in schools for which they are not academically prepared. Students who could have performed well at less competitive schools may end up lost and demoralized. As a result, they may fail the bar.

Specifically, Mr. Sander found that when black and white students with similar academic credentials compete against each other at the same school, they earn about the same grades. Similarly, when black and white students with similar grades from the same tier law school take the bar examination, they pass at about the same rate.

Yet, paradoxically, black students as a whole have dramatically lower bar passage rates than white students with similar credentials. Something is wrong.

The Sander study argued that the most plausible explanation is that, as a result of affirmative action, black and white students with similar credentials are not attending the same schools. The white students are more likely to be attending a school that takes things a little more slowly and spends more time on matters that are covered on the bar exam. They are learning, while their minority peers are struggling at more elite schools.

Mr. Sander calculated that if law schools were to use color-blind admissions policies, fewer black law students would be admitted to law schools (3,182 students instead of 3,706), but since those who were admitted would be attending schools where they have a substantial likelihood of doing well, fewer would fail or drop out (403 vs. 670). In the end, more would pass the bar on their first try (1,859 vs. 1,567) and more would eventually pass the bar (2,150 vs. 1,981) than under the current system of race preferences. Obviously, these figures are just approximations, but they are troubling nonetheless.

Mr. Sander has his critics–some thoughtful, some just strident–but so far none has offered a plausible alternative explanation for the data. Of course, Mr. Sander doesn’t need to be proven 100% correct for his research to be devastating news for affirmative-action supporters.

Suppose the consequences of race-based admissions turn out to be a wash–neither increasing nor decreasing the number of minority attorneys. In that case, few people would think it worth the costs, not least among them the human costs that result from the failure of the supposed beneficiaries to graduate and pass the bar.

Under current practices, only 45% of blacks who enter law school pass the bar on their first attempt as opposed to over 78% of whites. Even after multiple tries, only 57% of blacks succeed. The rest are often saddled with student debt, routinely running as high as $160,000, not counting undergraduate debt. How great an increase in the number of black attorneys is needed to justify these costs?

The most important other recommendation of the Civil Rights Commission is a call for transparency. As a matter of consumer fairness, law school applicants–regardless of race–need to know the statistical likelihood that someone with their academic credentials will successfully graduate and pass the bar. Once informed, they can better decide whether to undertake the risk of attending that particular school, or any law school at all. If law schools are unwilling to undertake this simple reform, it should be mandated by law.

Under current practices, law school applicants are at the mercy of admissions officers for that information; it is almost never provided except on a class-wide basis where success rates are positively misleading. Minority students whose academic credentials are substantially below their average classmates are lulled into believing that they are just as likely to graduate and pass the bar. When they don’t, they may be stuck with the bills, not to mention the loss of several years of their lives.

The problem is that the admissions officer’s job is to enroll students, not to draw the risks of failure to their attention. Indeed, in some cases, the officer may be frantic to enroll minority students in order to comply with the stringent new diversity standards of the American Bar Association Council on Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar. As the federal government’s accrediting agency for law schools, the ABA Council determines whether a law school will be eligible for the federal student-loan program. The law school that fails to satisfy its diversity requirements does so at its peril–as a number of law school deans can amply attest.

Decades of law students have relied upon the good faith of law school officials to tell them what they needed to know. For the 43% of black law students who never became lawyers, maybe that reliance was misplaced.

Ms. Heriot is professor of law at the University of San Diego and a member of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. [/i]

Here are links to the original study and the reply to critics:

http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/SA.htm

http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/critics/HoReply.pdf

http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/critics/ReplyCritics.pdf

In what would traditionally be known as irony, the ABA, which just last year was demanding the passage of new guidelines requiring law schools to engage in significant affirmative-action quotas, has now proposed new accreditation rules ( ABA Proposes Bar Pass Rate Standard – Discourse.netDiscourse.net ) that threaten the viability of many lower-tier law schools - including several historically black law schools. The ABA being pressured by the DOE, which has grown weary of the ABA mandating all sorts of requirements for law school while ignoring what would seem to be the most significant mandate: requiring that schools actually succeed in preparing their students for careers in law, not least by ensuring that they actually pass the bar. Unfortunately, this is similar to the trends in lower education where they “celebrate the diversity” and try to teach all sorts of moral lessons and instill senses of self esteem (actually entitlement) in kids who can’t read, write or add.

BB, are you black?

Affirmative action is bullshit I don’t care what color you are if you deserve it you deserve it. There are plenty of stupid white people out there going nowhere why should anybody else be special. It only spooked employers and schools into hiring a specific percentage minorities to show everyone they were not the “biggots.”

If you hand a job or a scholarship to an ignorant white person snubbing a more qualified minority, well your just an idiot sir and you deserve whatever comes upon you. Contrarily, if you hire a minority over a white person who is more qualified in order to fill a quota, well that just shows you how fucked up America is. We are the only country that seems to think that affirmative action is necessary.

If your a minority and you think you “deserve” something better than the rest of us you need to pull your head out of your ass and earn it like everybody else. I mean seriously only in America would some assinine crap like affirmative action come about. Its just embarrassing.

[quote]lixy wrote:
BB, are you black?[/quote]

Nope. I’m 1/8 German, 1/4 Swedish/Finn, and 5/8 Northern European mutt.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Nope. I’m 1/8 German, 1/4 Swedish/Finn, and 5/8 Northern European mutt.[/quote]

So what’s with all the rage against affirmative action? Do you feel that it discriminates against you and your “fellows”?

Hear me out. There is significant imbalance in your society due to historical atrocities such as slavery. First, we have to establish if you’re OK with that or not. Do you think black folks are lazy? Do you think someone who didn’t have full-civil-rights up until a few decades back is at the same level as everyone else to “pursue happiness”?

Then if we can agree that something has to be done, it may be useful to suggest an alternative instead of simply bashing the solution in place.

[quote]lixy wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Nope. I’m 1/8 German, 1/4 Swedish/Finn, and 5/8 Northern European mutt.

So what’s with all the rage against affirmative action? Do you feel that it discriminates against you and your “fellows”?

Hear me out. There is significant imbalance in your society due to historical atrocities such as slavery. First, we have to establish if you’re OK with that or not. Do you think black folks are lazy? Do you think someone who didn’t have full-civil-rights up until a few decades back is at the same level as everyone else to “pursue happiness”?

Then if we can agree that something has to be done, it may be useful to suggest an alternative instead of simply bashing the solution in place.[/quote]

Wow, I didn’t realize you could look through your computer screen and divine “rage.” I must have been livid to actually post an article…

Anyway, aside from all your irrelevant questions, the point of the article was that affirmative action actively hurts its intended recipients, on average and as a group. So, looking at it from a pragmatic perspective, why would we want to continue a policy that is hurting the group it is intended to benefit? I don’t believe in giving points for good intentions when it comes to societal engineering schemes.

The sub point was to point out the efforts at obfuscation of the underlying facts and effects from supporters of affirmative action in academia, which should make one question why they don’t want the facts to come to light.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Hear me out. There is significant imbalance in your society due to historical atrocities such as slavery. [/quote]

Know whereof you speak do you? Arabs and Muslims in general, shouldn’t be commenting on whether slavery was an atrocity or not, unless it’s to make a very heartfelt admission of guilt.

It’d be a fair call to state that Arabs were amongst the most energetic and productive of all slavers…probably hands down.

Feel free to spin your way out of that one with as much aplomb as you can muster.

[quote]lixy wrote:
A bunch of total crap…but particularly this: Do you think someone who didn’t have full-civil-rights up until a few decades back is at the same level as everyone else to “pursue happiness”?
[/quote]

What can you possibly know about the pursuit of happiness in the U.S.? Are you a citizen of our country? Have you lived here? Have you participated in our society from any position besides that of internet warrior?

Work on your own country - I think the pursuit of happiness is far more limited there than it is here, particularly where women are concerned.

I believe you are from Morocco, no? If not, I apologize in advance. But it seems to me you could spend a little more time working on the log in your eye instead of pointing out the sawdust in ours.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Wow, I didn’t realize you could look through your computer screen and divine “rage.” I must have been livid to actually post an article…[/quote]

You were pretty vocal on the other thread…

Yeah, I saw that. Gail’s prolific work on the matter is publicly available and I read quite a bit of it already. But lacking the credentials necessary to engage a professor of her caliber in a debate, I turn to the next best thing: one of her supporters.

My questions were very relevant to the topic. You chose not to address them and that’s fine by me, but I can’t help but think that I stroke a chord somewhere. Just a thought…

So, you’re judge and jury now?

The “damning” sub point is a good one. Obviously, something should be done to determine if there is obfuscation, and eventually put an end to it.

[quote]Peter1968 wrote:
Know whereof you speak do you? Arabs and Muslims in general, shouldn’t be commenting on whether slavery was an atrocity or not, unless it’s to make a very heartfelt admission of guilt. [/quote]

Are you really trying to debate “whether slavery was an atrocity or not”?

It’s a stone cold fact that slavery is an atrocity of the worst kind. If you can’t see that, I can’t help you much.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
A bunch of total crap…but particularly this: Do you think someone who didn’t have full-civil-rights up until a few decades back is at the same level as everyone else to “pursue happiness”?

What can you possibly know about the pursuit of happiness in the U.S.? [/quote]

Not much, but enough to know that black folks are not on par with the whites when it comes to escalating social classes.

If you have a problem with that assertion, we can discuss it. But given that you went the ad hominem road, I’ll take it that you have no interest in debating that.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Peter1968 wrote:
Know whereof you speak do you? Arabs and Muslims in general, shouldn’t be commenting on whether slavery was an atrocity or not, unless it’s to make a very heartfelt admission of guilt.

Are you really trying to debate “whether slavery was an atrocity or not”?

It’s a stone cold fact that slavery is an atrocity of the worst kind. If you can’t see that, I can’t help you much.[/quote]

Work on your reading comprehension. I believe his point is that you should not throw stones as your ancestors sold Africans into slavery.

Many/most white Americans ancestors were in Europe at the time and had nothing to do with slavery.

No - it’s not an ad hominem. It is calling out your hypocrisy. You want to point fingers at the US, while women in your country have few rights at all.

You want no discussion. You all but called BB a racist for showing that AA is more detrimental to blacks than not having it.

You must stay at a lot of Holiday Inn Express hotels.

A Muslim from Africa criticizing US Race policies and throwing in the Slavery argument. He doesn’t realize how silly he sounds. Always good to have a laugh at Lixy’s expense. He has provided a lot lately.

Fix your own problems in the Sudan and Mauritiana.

Bottom line affirmative action isn’t working in this case. To continue it would be racist if it harms those who were expected to benefit.

Two Views of The History of Islamic Slavery in Africa
By Susan Stephan

Slavery in the Arab World
Murray Gordon

New Amsterdam Books, New York, NY 1989

In his fact-filled work on the history of the Muslim Arab slave trade in Africa, Murray Gordon notes that this trade pre-dated the European Christian African slave trade by a thousand years and continued for more than a century after the Europeans had abolished the practice. Gordon estimates the number of slaves �??harvested�?? from Black Africa over the period of the Muslim Arab slave trade at 11 million �?? roughly equal to the number taken by European Christians for their colonies in the New World.

�??Despite the long history of slavery in the Arab World and in other Muslim lands, little has been written about this tragedy,�?? writes Gordon in his introduction. �??Except for the few abolitionists, mainly in England, who railed against Arab slavery and put pressure upon Western governments to end the traffic in slaves, the issue has all but been ignored in the West.�??

�??Conspiracy of Silence�?? on Arab Slave Trade
Gordon decries a �??conspiracy of silence. . .[that] has blocked out all light on this sensitive subject.�?? Among scholars in the Arab world, the author points out, �??No moral opprobrium has clung to slavery since it was sanctioned by the Koran and enjoyed an undisputed place in Arab society.�??

The book starts out with a brief outline of the growth of the Islamic attitude toward slavery. There is no evidence that Muhammad sought to abolish slavery, notes Gordon, although he urged slave-owners to treat their slaves well and grant them freedom as a meritorious deed.

�??Some Muslim scholars have taken this to mean that his true motive was to bring about a gradual elimination of slavery. Far more persuasive is the argument that by lending the moral authority of Islam to slavery, Muhammad assured its legitimacy. Thus, in lightening the fetter, he riveted it ever more firmly in place.�??

High Rate of Black African Casualties
While Gordon acknowledges that at times the Islamic version of slavery could be more �??humane�?? than the European colonial version, he provides many facts which point out that the Muslim variety of slavery could be extremely cruel as well.

One particularly brutal practice was the mutilation of young African boys, sometimes no more than 9 or ten years old, to create eunuchs, who brought a higher price in the slave markets of the Middle East. Slave traders often created �??eunuch stations�?? along the major African slave routes where the necessary surgery was performed in unsanitary conditions. Gordon estimates that only one out of every 10 boys subjected to the mutilation actually survived the surgery.

The taking of slaves �?? in razzias, or raids, on peaceful African villages �?? also had a high casualty rate. Gordon notes that the typical practice was to conduct a pre-dawn raid on an unsuspecting village and kill off as many of the men and older women as possible. Young women and children were then abducted as the preferred �??booty�?? for the raiders.

Young women were targeted because of their value as concubines or sex slaves in markets. �??The most common and enduring purpose for acquiring slaves in the Arab world was to exploit them for sexual purposes,�?? writes Gordon. �??These women were nothing less than sexual objects who, with some limitations, were expected to make themselves available to their owners. . .Islamic law, as already noted, catered to the sexual interests of a man by allowing him to take as many as four wives at one time and to have as many concubines as his purse allowed.�?? Young women and girls were often �??inspected�?? before purchase in private areas of the slave market by the prospective buyer.

Racism Toward Black Africans
Some of Gordon�??s research disputes the oft-repeated charge that racism did not play a part in Islamic slave society. While it is true that the Muslims of the Middle East took slaves of all colors and ethnicities, they considered white slaves more valuable than black ones and developed racist attitudes toward the darker skinned people.

Even the famous Arab philosopher Ibn Khaldun, expressed racist attitudes toward black Africans: �??The only people who accept slavery are the Negroes, owing to their low degree of humanity and their proximity to the animal stage,�?? Khaldun wrote. Another Arab writer, of the 14th Century, asked: �??Is there anything more vile than black slaves, of less good and more evil than they?�??

Gordon covers the Arab/African slave trades up until the mid-20th Century, noting that Saudi Arabia only abolished the practice in the early 1960s. Unlike the European nations and the USA, the Arab nations did not abolish African slavery voluntarily out of moral conscience, but due to considerable economic and military pressure applied by the great colonial powers of time, France and Britain. Slavery is still practiced in two Islamic nations: The Sudan and Mauritania.

Further reading about the Arab/Muslim slave trades can be found in the following book:

Race and Slavery in the Middle East
Bernard Lewis
Oxford University Press (Trade); Reprint edition (April 1992)

An excerpt from this book can be found here
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.html

To learn more about the 21st Century slave conditions in The Sudan and Mauritania, please visit www.iabolish.org

#

White Slaves, African Masters
An Anthology of American Barbary Captivity Narratives
Edited and with an introduction by Paul Baepler

The University of Chicago Press 1999

This book illuminates a subject once well-known in the history of the West but which is now somewhat neglected: the enslavement, over several centuries, of tens of thousands of white Christian Europeans and (later) Americans in Muslim North Africa – or the so-called �??Barbary�?? states of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Tripoli. Over the course of 10 centuries, tens of thousands of these unfortunates became the possessions of Muslims in North Africa courtesy of the feared Barbary pirates. These pirates cruised the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean in search of European and, later, American ships to pillage and plunder.

Edited by a lecturer at the University of Minnesota, Paul Baepler, this book focuses on first-person accounts of American Christians who served as slaves to high-ranking Muslim officials in North Africa. Baepler also provides fascinating background commentary that puts the narratives into historical perspective. He includes two �??fictional�?? narratives of female captives. (According to Baepler, Christian women captives of the Barbary states �?? unlike male captives �?? usually did not publish their testimonies under their real names, due to the fact that many of them had been �??dishonored�?? by service in the harems of Barbary potentates.)

As Baepler notes in his introduction, Christian slaves of European ancestry were hardly an uncommon phenomenon in the Barbary States. The Barbary pirates were excellent seafarers and, from the Coasts of North Africa, sailed as far north as Iceland (where they went ashore and captured 800 slaves during one incident) and as far West as Newfoundland, Canada, where they pillaged more than 40 vessels at one time. By 1620, reports Baepler, there were more than 20,000 white Christian slaves in Algiers alone, and by the 1630s that number tolled more than 30,000 men and 2,000 women. The most famous of all white Christian Europeans to serve as a slave in the Barbary States was probably Miguel de Cervantes, the great Spanish author of the �??Don Quixote�?? epic, who was taken as a slave in the late 1500s.

An Important Source of Revenue
European and (later on) American slaves appeared to have been important source of foreign revenue for the local economies for several centuries. First, European and (later) American governments paid huge sums in �??tribute�?? to the Muslim governments in exchange for �??peace treaties�?? that were supposed to halt the pirate attacks on their trading and naval ships. Those nations who did not pay suffered the consequences. Second, enslaved Europeans and Americans were often redeemed for a handsome ransom. And third, even if the Muslim governments received no �??tribute�?? or ransom, they still benefited from the unpaid labor of their captives.

Baepler quotes a Barbary Coast maxim that illustrates the viewpoints of the pirates and their sponsoring states: �??The Christians who would be on good terms with [the Barbary States] must [either] fight well or pay well.�??

The first-person narratives reproduced in this book do not support the often-repeated contention that slavery was somehow a more human institution in the Islamic world than it was in the European colonies of the New World.

By and large, the Christian slaves were poorly fed and housed, existing, by one account, on a meager ration of two slices of bread and a small quantity of beans per day. Clothing �?? and medical care – was provided by sympathetic free Europeans living in North Africa; slave-owners provided nothing. Spanish Catholic priests even built a large hospital in Algeria to look after ill and dying Christian slaves.

The most popular punishment was the �??bastinado�?? �?? hundreds of blows on the soles of the feet with a thick wooden truncheon. For more severe offenses, such as attempting to escape or ridiculing the Muslim religion or prophet, slaves were executed in particularly cruel ways: by crucifixion, burning at the stake or impalement on huge iron hooks until death. The narrators of these slave accounts witnessed many acts of brutality toward the Christian slaves, as well as toward the general North African populace ruled over by the elite: the beys, deys and bashaws of the Barbary States.

Baepler quotes from, but does not include, the narrative of one James Riley, an American Barbary captive of the early 1800s who published a book about his experiences upon returning to the United States. The book became an influential �??best-seller�?? in the young nation of the USA and influenced those Americans who worked for abolition of the shameful practice of Black African slavery in the Southern States of the USA. Riley�??s book was said to have greatly influenced one young lawyer named Abraham Lincoln, who, as 16th president of the United States, signed the Emancipation Proclamation abolishing slavery in the U.S. in 1863.

As for the Barbary pirate slave trade, it continued sporadically up until the dawn of the 20th Century, and was not abolished until military and economic pressure was applied by the colonial powers of Europe (with, in come cases, assistance from the military might of the USA).

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Wow, I didn’t realize you could look through your computer screen and divine “rage.” I must have been livid to actually post an article…

lixy wrote:
You were pretty vocal on the other thread…[/quote]

Really, you found it? I couldn’t get it to come up – please provide a link.

Irrespective, I don’t get too riled up about internet debates, so I don’t think “rage” would be an accurate description. I do get a little annoyed at those who refuse to look at whether their preferred solution is actually working.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Anyway, aside from all your irrelevant questions, the point of the article was that affirmative action actively hurts its intended recipients, on average and as a group.

lixy wrote:
Yeah, I saw that. Gail’s prolific work on the matter is publicly available and I read quite a bit of it already. But lacking the credentials necessary to engage a professor of her caliber in a debate, I turn to the next best thing: one of her supporters.[/quote]

The more particular work you should be addressing is the underlying work of Professor Richard Sander, though Professor Heriot is accomplished and does sit on the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, which recently called for more research and less obfuscation on this topic.

[quote]lixy wrote:
My questions were very relevant to the topic. You chose not to address them and that’s fine by me, but I can’t help but think that I stroke a chord somewhere. Just a thought…[/quote]

No, your questions were completely irrelevant to the question at hand, and were an attempt to get the argument to focus on me particularly.

This is what you asked:

[i]So what’s with all the rage against affirmative action? Do you feel that it discriminates against you and your “fellows”?

Hear me out. There is significant imbalance in your society due to historical atrocities such as slavery. First, we have to establish if you’re OK with that or not. Do you think black folks are lazy? Do you think someone who didn’t have full-civil-rights up until a few decades back is at the same level as everyone else to “pursue happiness”?

Then if we can agree that something has to be done, it may be useful to suggest an alternative instead of simply bashing the solution in place. [/i]

Firstly, how does any of that relate to whether affirmative action programs are working or are having negative effects?

Secondly, how would my personal beliefs on your question impact at all whether affirmative action programs are effective?

Thirdly, what would be the purpose of essentially asking me whether I’m racist? How does that relate to the point?

And lastly, I’ve participated in enough threads and discussions talking about alternatives to race-based affirmative action, such as economic-class based affirmative action. There is no inherent responsibility to rehash those discussions each time new evidence or arguments come up about why race-based affirmative action is a flawed policy.

Secondarily, what do you think the “ability to pursue happiness” means? It means the government won’t affirmatively interfere with your pursuit of happiness unless you engage in illegal activity. And are you under the impression that is a right under the Constitution (hint: it’s not in that document)?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
So, looking at it from a pragmatic perspective, why would we want to continue a policy that is hurting the group it is intended to benefit?

lixy wrote:
So, you’re judge and jury now?[/quote]

So, after asking all of your silly and irrelevant questions, you won’t even address the main point?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
The sub point was to point out the efforts at obfuscation of the underlying facts and effects from supporters of affirmative action in academia, which should make one question why they don’t want the facts to come to light.

lixy wrote:
The “damning” sub point is a good one. Obviously, something should be done to determine if there is obfuscation, and eventually put an end to it.[/quote]

Indeed. The question needs to be settled – irrespective of whether a lot of people in academia have a vested interest in the answer to the question.

This question is purely pragmatic – I am not even trying to touch on the underlying logic or morality of the program. That would be another thread (and argument).

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Work on your reading comprehension. [/quote]

Peter should work on his writing skills.

That wasn’t clear from his post, now was it?

Anyway, how do you (or Peter68) know my ancestors were the ones “selling the Africans into slavery” and not “being sold into slavery”? I’m curious.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
No - it’s not an ad hominem. It is calling out your hypocrisy. You want to point fingers at the US, while women in your country have few rights at all. [/quote]

Are you sure you know what hypocrisy means?

If I was any more feminist, I’d be a woman. So, do us all a favor and think before posting.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
First of all the “why is that” has not been established. But, we can see from BB’s article and the clear evidence from observation over the past 40 years that affirmative action does not work. [/quote]

I think that the system is too screwed up for AA to work within it.

[quote]An entire class of people are failing miserably in the USA and you want more of the same for them?

Shame on you.[/quote]

The system works just fine in many countries.

But do I support AA? Heck no. I repeatedly stated in other threads that I consider it racism.