[quote]bulletproof_ wrote:
Brook wrote:
Alen, Reinila, & Reijo (1985) observed that serum testosterone level tended to increase throughout a 26 week cycle of various AAS until abruptly dropping below normal levels during cessation. When athletes discontinue the use of AAS they experience a refractory period where they do not produce physiological amounts of endogenous testosterone (Di Pasquale, 1992a). Anabolic-androgenic steroid can reduce endogenous testosterone, gonadotrophic hormones and sex hormone-binding globulin (Yesalis, Wright, & Bahrke, 1989). Weight trained athletes have been shown to have low serum testosterone concentrations immediately after cessation of a AAS cycle but return to normal within weeks (Alen, Reinila, & Reijo, 1985).
So what does “various AAS” refer to in this case. Were they using synthetic testosterones for this study? I don’t see how running Deca when a blood test is taken will cause the Total Test value to be higher. I would think it might be just slightly lower if the addition of Deca further contributed to HPTA shutdown. I’m not sure to what degree my HRT dose has shut my HPTA down.[/quote]
You’re right, as far as I can see. I’m going to post my reply in a minute, but it looks like they were using test + AAS in that study.
I’m not entirely sure what your final conclusion is Brook, but I appreciate your replies.
[quote] Brook wrote:
I am pretty sure that the body cannot differentiate between the androgen activity from the different AAS.
[/quote]
Not to say that all exogenous androgens have identical activity in the body, but I think we can all agree that they’re generally mimicking testosterone.
Yeah this is where I’m not in agreement. Total androgen level is of course higher, but not total test. That’s basic suppression; the need to add exo test / hCG on cycle wouldn’t be necessary if nandro was simply functionally equivalent across the board, or somehow identical, to testosterone in the body.
[quote]
This may not be the case across the board (although i thought it was), and i have no clue where or when i came to this conclusion so may be totally wrong of course.
Surely then - in drug testing, they would ONLY ever need to Test for TT levels - as the use of any androgen will decrease the levels significantly.
Gonna look this up! ;)[/quote]
Not sure if you’re using the drug testing situation as an argument in your favor or mine But people that test positive for deca won’t necessarily test positive for testosterone as well. Naturally they could be running both (that would be preferable, as we know here) but many haven’t. (Not to even get into the issue of all the athletes that tested positive for nandro due to use of certain PH’s five or more years ago… and also not testing positive for testosterone use.)
It’d be nice read Alen, Reinila, & Reijo in its entirety to see more on their protocol, but I’m not going to pay for the privilege From the abstract though, this stuck out: “[A]fter 26 wk of anabolic steroid AND testosterone administration, serum testosterone concentrations had increased 2.3-fold.” (My emphasis on the AND) So I don’t believe they were looking at individuals that were on non testosterone-based cycles, hence I’m doubtful as to its relevance here.
Yesalis has done some good work and I’ve probably got that one “around somewhere”.
Back to my situation, years ago we were trying to see if anavar could be used as a bridging agent… because of course everybody used to say how mild it was and non-suppressive. Three of us were using it at low doses (though it was pharm-grade) and we had bloodwork done at the beginning, end, and two weeks into a four week cycle (easy and free testing access back then!) We all had lower total test at the two week mark. Not that low, at least in my case, maybe in the 25-30% lower range, IIRC. Long time ago.
A bit of PubMed crawling wrt to nandrolone… There’s probably some more definitive work available, but here’s an abstract from a study done on HIV patients that mentions the supression of testosterone levels.
Effects of nandrolone decanoate therapy in borderline hypogonadal men with HIV-associated weight loss.
Strawford A, Barbieri T, Neese R, Van Loan M, Christiansen M, Hoh R, Sathyan G, Skowronski R, King J, Hellerstein M. Dept of Nutritional Sciences, University of California at Berkeley.
Serum testosterone concentrations are frequently in the low-normal range (lowest quartile, <500 ng/dl) in men with AIDS-wasting syndrome (AWS) and in other chronic wasting disorders. The response of patients in this group to androgen treatment has not been determined, however.
Eighteen men with AWS (mean +/- standard error [SE]: 87% +/- 1% usual body weight; CD4 count 90 +/- 24) and borderline low serum testosterone concentrations (382 +/- 33 ng/dl) completed a 21-day placebo-controlled inpatient metabolic ward study comparing intramuscular (i.m.) placebo (n = 7) with low-dose (65 mg/week; n = 4) and high-dose (200 mg/week; n = 7) nandrolone decanoate, a testosterone analogue. Nitrogen balance, stable isotope-mass spectrometric measurement of de novo lipogenesis (DNL), resting energy expenditure, and gonadal hormone levels were measured.
Both low-dose and high-dose nandrolone resulted in significant nitrogen retention (33-52 g nitrogen/14 days, representing gains of 0.5 to 0.9 kg lean tissue/week) compared with placebo (loss of 11 g nitrogen/week). This was reflected biochemically in a borderline significant reduction of high DNL (p < .06). SERUM TESTOSTERONE and gonadotropins were SUPPRESSED whereas resting energy expenditure was unchanged by nandrolone treatment. In 10 study subjects completing a 12-week open-label follow-up phase, body weight increased by 4.9 +/- 1.2 kg, including 3.1 +/- 0.5 kg lean body mass, and treadmill exercise performance also improved. In summary, nandrolone decanoate therapy in the absence of an exercise program in borderline hypogonadal men with AWS caused substantial nitrogen retention compared with placebo, similar in extent to the nitrogen retention previously achieved with recombinant growth hormone. It is reasonable to expand the criteria for androgen treatment in AWS to include at least patients in the lowest quartile of serum testosterone.
… and a very recent abstract that’s entirely predicated on the reduction of T by nandrolone… as it’s looking to see if it’s possible to recognize the use of recombinant LH and hCG on blood and urine profiles. They don’t mention the actual degree of suppression in participants following the short nandrolone treatment, but I think you get the picture… serum T is reduced and they’re looking at hormone profiles following attempts to rectify serum T through use of hCG and LH.
Effects of recombinant human luteinizing hormone and human chorionic gonadotropin on serum and urine LH and androgens in men. Handelsman DJ, Goebel C, Idan A, Jimenez M, Trout G, Kazlauskas R. Andrology Dept, Concord Hospital, ANZAC Research Institute, University of Sydney.
SUMMARY Context: The administration of gonadotropins is prohibited in sport but the effect in men of recently available recombinant hCG and LH on serum and urine concentrations of gonadotropins and androgens has not been systematically evaluated in the anti-doping context.
Objective: To determine the time-course of recombinant LH (LHrh) and hCG (rhCG) on blood and urine hormone profiles in men to develop effective tests to detect rhLH and rhCG doping.
Design: Two randomized controlled studies with a 2 x 2 factorial design.
Setting: Academic research centre Participants: Healthy male volunteers aged 18-45 yr
Interventions: In the rhLH study, men were randomized into (a) either of two single doses of rhLH (75 IU or 225 IU) and (b) suppression of endogenous LH and testosterone by nandrolone or no suppression. In the rhCG study men were randomized into (a) either of two single doses of rhCG (250 mug or 750 mug) and (b) suppression of endogenous LH and testosterone by nandrolone decanoate (ND) or no suppression.
ND suppression comprised a single dose of 200 mg nandrolone decanoate 3 days prior to, and in the rhCG study an additional dose 1 day after, gonadotropin injection.
Main outcome measures: Serum and urine hCG, LH, T, T/LH ratio, urine epitestosterone (E) and urine T/E ratio.
Results: Neither rhLH dose produced a significant increase in serum or urine LH or T or in the T/E or T/LH ratios regardless of ND-induced suppression of endogenous LH and T. Nor did an even higher dose (750 IU) in 3 healthy men with unsuppressed gonadal axis. These findings were confirmed with two different commercial LH immunoassays together with adjustment for any influence of urine sediment and dilution. Both rhCG doses produced a steep, dose-proportional increase in serum and urine hCG with increases in serum and urine T and suppression of serum and urine LH, regardless of hCG dose. Serum but not urine T was lowered by ND suppression. The T/LH ratio showed a progressive increase unrelated to rhCG dose or ND suppression whereas both rhCG and ND suppression minimally increased T/E ratio.
Conclusions: Both rhCG doses produce a striking increase in serum hCG and T with suppression of serum LH but, at single doses up to 750 IU, rhLH has no influence on serum or urine LH or T. Effective rhLH doping, which relies on a sustained increases in endogenous T, would require much higher and more frequent daily rhLH doses. Use of LH immunoassays optimised for serum to detect rhLH doping by urine LH measurement requires more standardisation and validation and, at present, is unreliable. The T/LH ratio is, however, a useful screening test for hCG doping although its utility requires further evaluation.
[quote] Brook wrote:
Alen, Reinila, & Reijo (1985) observed that serum testosterone level tended to increase throughout a 26 week cycle of various AAS until abruptly dropping below normal levels during cessation. When athletes discontinue the use of AAS they experience a refractory period where they do not produce physiological amounts of endogenous testosterone (Di Pasquale, 1992a). Anabolic-androgenic steroid can reduce endogenous testosterone, gonadotrophic hormones and sex hormone-binding globulin (Yesalis, Wright, & Bahrke, 1989). Weight trained athletes have been shown to have low serum testosterone concentrations immediately after cessation of a AAS cycle but return to normal within weeks (Alen, Reinila, & Reijo, 1985).[/quote]
The standard testosterone test is a radio immuno assay. It’s antibody based. Many common AAS will bind to the antibody thus giving an erroneously high testosterone reading. I have seen literature on deca for this and as a TRT person with some friends on TRT I can say that Equipoise does something similar.
To the OP…A lot of TRT guys supplement from time to time with Equipoise, deca NPP and Masteron. Not a lot of us use tren that I know of but then again most of the guys I know on TRT are over 40 and are ot into balls to the wall size at all costs attitude. It’s pretty common to add 300 to 600 mg/w of something for a 2-3 months then go back to the TRT schedule timing it so bloodwork comes out in your TRT range.
[quote]pickapeck wrote:
Brook wrote:
Alen, Reinila, & Reijo (1985) observed that serum testosterone level tended to increase throughout a 26 week cycle of various AAS until abruptly dropping below normal levels during cessation. When athletes discontinue the use of AAS they experience a refractory period where they do not produce physiological amounts of endogenous testosterone (Di Pasquale, 1992a). Anabolic-androgenic steroid can reduce endogenous testosterone, gonadotrophic hormones and sex hormone-binding globulin (Yesalis, Wright, & Bahrke, 1989). Weight trained athletes have been shown to have low serum testosterone concentrations immediately after cessation of a AAS cycle but return to normal within weeks (Alen, Reinila, & Reijo, 1985).
The standard testosterone test is a radio immuno assay. It’s antibody based. Many common AAS will bind to the antibody thus giving an erroneously high testosterone reading. I have seen literature on deca for this and as a TRT person with some friends on TRT I can say that Equipoise does something similar.
To the OP…A lot of TRT guys supplement from time to time with Equipoise, deca NPP and Masteron. Not a lot of us use tren that I know of but then again most of the guys I know on TRT are over 40 and are ot into balls to the wall size at all costs attitude. It’s pretty common to add 300 to 600 mg/w of something for a 2-3 months then go back to the TRT schedule timing it so bloodwork comes out in your TRT range.[/quote]
exactly…most guys on TRT are on a typical every six month blood work plan to maintain their monitoring and adjust if necessary. Have bloodwork done for your doctor…start cycle next day…stop cycle at no more than 16 weeks (4months) go back to hrt dose for 2 months , have bloodwork , repeat. Also i have known people to intentionally take a little less near blood draw day say 50mg per week the last 3 weeks, so they show a little low…this ensures some overzealous doctor won’t keep lowering your prescribed dose. At least i have heard that this might work
No - you are getting confused. There is a difference between measuring for the presence of Androgens in the body - as all that is needed when looking at TRT patients - and actually measuring serum Testosterone as a hormone in it’s own right.
Of course any steroid doesn’t increase Test - i wasn’t saying that - surely you didn’t think i was?
I am saying that when a standard Test is done, by a HRT doctor, TT levels are higher (as that is the androgen that it is ASSUMED to be) as they aren’t actually testing for types of hormones or metabolites of synthetic androgens.
I find it funny you felt the need to quote studies showing suppression of Testosterone by Nandrolone! Again, surely to fuck you didn’t think i was suggesting that Nandrolone (or any AAS) doesn’t suppress Test?
Took a strange path. Either way, after you made me doubt myself - i looked into it for 30 seconds and confirmed my previous beliefs.
My doctor has yet to move me to an “every 6 months” blood test schedule. We are still in the initial stages of calibrating my dose, and I get blood work every 6 weeks. Hopefully I’ll be able to move to a 6 month schedule after this next blood test.
At that point, I suppose I could go 4 months on and 2 months off leading up to my blood work. So I guess now I just need to decide on something that I will be comfortable running for a straight 4 months without having to deal with any side effects…especially hairloss.
[quote] Brook wrote:
No - you are getting confused. There is a difference between measuring for the presence of Androgens in the body - as all that is needed when looking at TRT patients - and actually measuring serum Testosterone as a hormone in it’s own right.
Of course any steroid doesn’t increase Test - i wasn’t saying that - surely you didn’t think i was?
I am saying that when a standard Test is done, by a HRT doctor, TT levels are higher (as that is the androgen that it is ASSUMED to be) as they aren’t actually testing for types of hormones or metabolites of synthetic androgens.
I find it funny you felt the need to quote studies showing suppression of Testosterone by Nandrolone! Again, surely to fuck you didn’t think i was suggesting that Nandrolone (or any AAS) doesn’t suppress Test?
Took a strange path. Either way, after you made me doubt myself - i looked into it for 30 seconds and confirmed my previous beliefs.
JJ[/quote]
LOL. Brook: I can’t always guess what you’re thinking. You stated that “all AAS show up as Test’rone” and I asked if “standard blood panels aren’t accurate enough to distinguish between testosterone and other androgens?” At that point it would have been really easy to clear up the fact that you believe that HRT bloodwork is a simple, total androgen test, rather than a true total test measurement, if that was precisely what you were in fact thinking.
Instead, your reply was “I am saying that total test will be increased when you use synthetic androgenic steroids.” What am I supposed to read into that statement? Then YOU started showing studies regarding test levels when using other AAS, to which I simply replied with counter examples. I just figured that under your shaved head you were having some sort of blond moment. Glad were on the same page now.
But people that test positive for deca won’t necessarily test positive for testosterone as well. Naturally they could be running both (that would be preferable, as we know here) but many haven’t. (Not to even get into the issue of all the athletes that tested positive for nandro due to use of certain PH’s five or more years ago… and also not testing positive for testosterone use.)
From the abstract though, this stuck out: “[A]fter 26 wk of anabolic steroid AND testosterone administration, serum testosterone concentrations had increased 2.3-fold.” (My emphasis on the AND) So I don’t believe they were looking at individuals that were on non testosterone-based cycles, hence I’m doubtful as to its relevance here.