Maybe you could do a trial of TRT, but it’s not something that kickstarts things. If TRT works for you then you’re on it for good. If it doesn’t then you can be pretty assured your issue isn’t hormonal.
HCG can help stave off shrinkage but there’s no way to know if it’ll be 100%. You already said it didn’t work for you, not sure why it would a second time.
Good luck
Thanks… Damn that looks kinda depressing. I don’t want to be on it long- term.
I just thought maybe it can fix the way receptors expressed… And maybe turn a switch on. Then i quit. Because in PFS and PAS cases crazy things like that happens all the time.
A guy took Trest along with TRT and said he is fully recovered. Although admins banned him and we didn’t know if he quit the drug by now or not.
I don’t know what to try or think anymore… What else it could be, except hormonal?
Have you used HMG at all? It is much more expensive than HCG, but it’s used to improve FSH. I know that PFS is a really complex beast, so if it’s me approaching it I’m trying to hit all the different hormone pathways to try to see what causes some kind of stimulus.
I think i have found the issue. Damn, what a strange roller coaster of a day for me.
Allright, two birds with one stone. @lordgains I really wonder your take on this.
A PFS guy i talked with, says that PFS is simply lack of Neurosteroids and Upregulated AR’s. All of it proven with studies.
As we know, any exegenous androgens you take, will downregulate your AR’s. That’s why many PFS cases recover with HCG and strong AR agonist steroids.
PAS:
He says that PAS is the opposite of this issue based on here.
His protocol suggestion for me:
So basically, i have to UPregulate my AR’s to fix my PAS. This is kinda makes sense since me and my PAS friends tried androgens with no results. A friend of mine even injected very high doses of HCG and took 200mg Proviron daily… The same guy also reported he injected 25mg Progesterone to make a baby with his wife (dunno what he was thinking?) and felt improved that day, with better orgasms. But he never took it again…
Antagonizing a receptor with Progesterone will actually make the AR’s upregulate then, i was doing the opposite with Androgens all the time…
No. Never without a doctor monitoring it. Super dangerous.
I’ll reply to the rest later.
I can say this. Since it is trial and error what you are doing, you can do one of two things that I think are maybe worth trying:
Take progesterone as cream
Run a “cycle”.
I’d first try number 1 as it is with less consequences. Also if cycling, I wouldn’t take huge amounts of steroids; rather androgenic ones in reasonable amounts.
Also, I’d leave the DIM alone. And definitely don’t take lithium. I don’t think carnitine and NAC will do something but NAC is really good for you anyway. Just drink it in something basic to counterbalance the acidity for taste and for your stomach. Butyrate same, you can do it. Lipoic acid is good for you, but this stack really isn’t the main thing.
I’d try the progesterone first and maybe even alone without the other items on the list.
Thanks for the reply! Well, i am currently having some arguments with some people. About whether exogenous androgens (TRT, Steroids, etc.) downregulate or upregulate the AR’s…
I couldn’t find it! I bought injectable Progesterone, is that harmful and risky than the cream?
We have opposing studies… I have found some studies showing downregulation of AR with TRT or whatever and there is this: https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/66/8_Supplement/1252.5
I am so confused now… By the way, Prog’s effect on AR’s is clear, it upregulates them right? If i was correct about androgens and AR’s ofc.
Says many things, different…
[OUP Academic]
H However, the AR protein level is not down-regulated in the presence of androgens. Instead, androgens have been shown to increase AR protein levels in various cell contexts.
In addition to controlling AR mRNA levels at the transcriptional level, androgens also regulate AR expression at the posttranscriptional level. Androgens have been reported to modulate both stability and translation efficiency of the AR mRNA. Androgens decrease AR mRNA levels, but increase AR protein levels in both prostate cancer LNCaP and breast cancer MDA453 cells ([91](javascript:;)). Androgens down-regulate AR mRNA transcription in LNCaP cells. However, androgens do not change AR mRNA transcription in MDA453 cells, but destabilize AR mRNA, indicating that androgens down-regulate AR mRNA level at the posttranscriptional level in MDA453 cells.
This result indicates that AR may use another mechanism to limit hormone responsiveness. A recent study using green fluorescent protein technology demonstrates that AR migrates to the subnuclear compartment in the presence of androgen within 15–60 min ([107](javascript:;)). AR migrates rapidly back to the cytoplasm upon androgen withdrawal and maintains its ability to reenter the nucleus for at least four rounds of AR recycling after the initial androgen treatment ([107](javascript:;)). This indicates that AR inactivation and migration into the cytoplasm due to ligand dissociation, as well as AR recycling rather than receptor degradation, may control the hormone responsiveness of AR ([107](javascript:;)).
AND now there are these ones saying the opposite, but on different contexts and variables in play, and all tissues react differently it seems!:
Was modern medicine a joke, from the beginning? What the hell is really going on in this world? All i see is we are very far away from knowing the human body and the courage to selling drugs to people… What a hubris.
This is beyond me…
One more thing, if we can understand the first problem about if androgens up or down regulate the AR’s, especially on human prostate, where my issue exists, then there is the second problem. Do Progestins act as an AR antagonist on human prostate or not…
The guy who suggested me Prog. send me this two studies as a “proof” of Progesteron’s AR antagonistic, therefore AR upregulating (Is this even true? I thought AR’s only upregulate when the blood hormone levels are low, not when an actual antagonist inhibits them!..) effects:
However, i see no proof in both of them. One only studied the female breast tissue. And the other one throws out weird and abstract anecdotes about how progestins act like anti- androgenic… in reptile and rats. Then even contradicting itself with another weird and abstract anectodes about its androgenic effects… damn.
I think im really close to end this chaos. If i can find the truth… Last steps.
First of all, congrats to your accomplishments research wise. Seems you came a long way and are able to understand quite a bit now.
Nope. All good.
The problem is, most studies are done in females. I couldn’t find a study on AR expression and progesterone in prostate tissue as of yet. Maybe you can find one, I’m pressed on time the last few days/weeks.
That is the case. Also, mice and humans can differ.
Good luck on the research, if I find the time, I’ll help. I think in the end it will still be trial and error but we’ll see.
Upregulation through antagonists is a common phenomenon but with nuclear receptors I wouldnt be surprised if it can differ from receptor to receptor. I don’t see evidence of direct antagonism from progesterone. Could be a downstream effect. Not sure though.
Thanks for everything. Yeah i am now trying to find more reliable studies.
Seems so, a medical student i have talked with also going to help me. He said for now, that AR inihibitive actions does not necessarily mean they will upregulate the AR’s. Which make sense, human body is not that simple at all.
But im thinking, i have tried Tamoxifen, Proviron and currently 2 months in with HCG, if androgens do upregulate the receptors, and if my issue is downregulation from Accutane, probably on prostate; then i should have at least experienced a small improvement from them.
Or i need stronger androgens like TRT or Trestolone to finally initiate the effect of upregulation. However from the countless reports, it seems androgens actually downregulate the receptors, that’s how PFS cases recover. It also seems like, Testosterone supplementing can increase the AR’s in the mRna, but decreases the receptor density as you said. However there is that study i shared above, stating T’s upregulatory effects on AR’s… Jeez.
So im thinking, which would be a better option to try first. The Progesterone treatment or the Androgen route, or maybe an another, more reliable Androgen Upregulator (AR antagonist if the theory is correct.) ?
There is also a recommendation from some people about L- carnitine injections. It seems they upregulate the AR’s… And the data on it seems reliable.
I’ve been taking Carnitine for a year though… 2gr few times a week, could be weak. Do you know if i can inject L- Carnitine to my fat tissue with small needles?
There is a pdf i shared from Prep Coach’s injectable L- carnitine e- book, it explains its effects on AR’s and other things. But admin’s deleted it right now, due to its being from an another forum link i think.
Pharmacodynamics of progesterone - Wikipedia On the Androgenic and antiandrogenic activity section here, it states there is no direct proof about Progesterone’s AR Agonistic or Antagonistic, action. And antiandrogenic effect of it seems to be related to DHT inhibition. However,
‘‘It is not certain at this time whether a similar mechanism is involved in the potentiation of androgen action on other organs such as the prostate.’’ Very close, damn.
These state somewhat the opposite. I posted a lot… I can’t interpret these studies that well too… I should stop for now.
No, it’s painful. Even IM causes some discomfort. I think some compounders add lidocaine to help ease the pain. But I’ve tried TMC and Defy’s L-Carn and both burned if even a little got into the fat layer
Thanks, oh well then i will just stick to my Carnitine pills… I don’t want to kill myself in home trying to finding the veins to inject myself, risky business. Btw, isn’t this dose of TRT just too much? I thought people inject 200mg once a week, not everyday.
Nebido 250mg/ML Vial 4 ML Everyday 1x1. Intra Muscular.
It’s a standard IM injection, not IV. Just make sure you use a long enough needle and use big muscles. I have seen YouTubers stop doing the shots tho because of the daily hassle. Just make sure you’re taking enough L-Carn if doing oral
Don’t go IV at home please.
I think im going to start Progesterone tomorrow. I think it is a safer option to try first before TRT?
And androgens seems not to be helpful for me. I hope we can discuss my posts when you have the time.
@lordgains What you think about this? I wonder what: '‘Because it COMPETES with androgen receptors’’ means. Would that result in Upregulation of AR somehow?
The last one you posted is on specific progestins like chlormadinon, which have anti androgenic properties. Cyproteron for example is used in men who think they are transgender to facilitate the acquisition of secondary sexual characteristics of women.
I don’t think you want to inhibit your AR; if possible you should upregulate it without blocking it as a test.
I hope I can read up on your papers and fill in with some of my own next week. As I said, very stressful right now.
Is there any substance like this which i can try?
I’ll look what I can find. I don’t know of one, but it isn’t that important as the whole hypothesis stands on loose ground. You have to do trial and error anyways (or wait it out), just do it with things that don’t fuck you up. Progesterone is an option, I don’t know if a great one, but I don’t know if there are better ones.
Allright. Thanks!
Im going to start Progesterone tomorrow, i have also talked with an another PAS case, what a lucky coincidance that was! He said he greatly improved on Prog, felt very horny! Erections got much better! Orgasms were better!
But he was also taking Preg. and the dosing was wrong so he needed to quit due to anxiety attacks. Good news anyways.
One chance to a way out of this mess, can i inject the I.M designed Progesterone subq? Or i should have subq designed Progesterone for it? Because the label on it says, ‘‘only for I.M’’
Like HCG maybe it can injectable via both ways. Can i inject Progesterone to my fat tissue with small needles? I can do that daily! Im researching it.
They do not specify if that Prog is designed for Subq usage, damn. I am not sure if they used the same I.M liquid as Subq or not. A guy i talked with said it would be effective, very close to I.M injections but he also said he is not very sure about it. I sent him this article and he concluded from there. I wish i had the fundamental knowledge. Damn, now i also found from the same brand, they have something called: Progestan Dex, and this one states it can be done both Subq or I.M I also found one more brand called Prolutex, which says the same, both. I can’t find these last two tho.
So im thinking why would same brand, Progestan, label one of its Prog vials as I.M only and the other one Subq+ I.M… There could be a difference, i assume. Or they just re- labeled it again.
