Adult ADHD

I agree with some stuff in here, and disagree with a bunch, too. I understand the value in simplifying arguments, but things are not as cut and dry as they are presented here.

[quote]belligerent wrote:
Picked this up from an excellent blog, thelastpsychiatrist.com. This guy is the clearest thinker I’ve ever read on the subject of psychiatry.

What’s Wrong With Research In Psychiatry?

Dynastic:

There are no independent psychiatric researchers. Young academics are mentored by older academics; this isn’t optional, for either person. In virtually no circumstance do they study something entirely of their own choosing, it is either an outgrowth of the mentors’ research, or is the mentors’ research.

Distant from reality:

Young academics almost never work outside of the university. Theirs is all selection bias. The only patients they see are the ones the university gives them: either Medicaid/indigent on the inpatient unit, or patients of the disposition to want to be involved in clinical trials. Academics are like government economists: “we haven’t had two consecutive quarters of declining GDP, so we’re not in a recession.” Regular psychiatrists are the management at Wal Mart: “I’m not sure what this is called, but no one is buying anything.”

Groupthink:

Academic psychiatrists are nearly all on the same page, and refer to one another as if they have a relationship, even when they’ve never met. (“Chuck Nemeroff is doing some good work on…”) It’s pointless to list the other characteristics of groupthink here, except to highlight one: the purpose of groupthink is not to promote an ideology, but self-preservation, and this is unconscious. They don’t realize that their lives are devoted to preserving the group, yet young researchers are brought on who connect with the group; peer reviewers-- and journal editors-- come from the group; grant reviewers, and NIMH people themselves came from, and support the group.

An example of groupthink preservation is the referencing of studies. Academics support their propositions with previous studies; however, no one checks the accuracy of these studies. No one has the time, and the group necessarily must trust the work of others in the group. Even if an error were to be found, it would be described as an isolated error. A cursory stroll through this site alone suggests just how “isolated” such errors really are.

Financially isolated:

Medicine is a market. Buyers and sellers.

Academics make a salary, but their survival at university depends on the grants they can bring in. That means their market, their customers, are funding agencies, not patients. It doesn’t mean they don’t care about patients, it means that the service they provide is nuanced and directed towards Pharma or the NIH.

If the funding agencies are stacked with people who like antiepileptics for bipolar; if the grant goes to Pfizer who is looking to create a bipolar indication, etc, etc, that’s the research that can be expected. I’m not even worried that the results will be… predestined. I’m worried that such pressures direct what kind of research, what kind of questions get asked, at all.

Too much data

We’re busy talking about bias and hidden results and skewed statistics and nonsense. So we call for more studies, as if they will somehow be better studies, despite no other structural changes being made. The reality is that we have information inflation: new studies have less value because they get lost; and old studies completely disappear, as if somehow their validity is temporal.

There are a quadrillion studies already conducted in psychiatry. There is plenty of data that can be analyzed, meta-analyzed, pooled, parsed. If all current research ground to an immediate halt, and researchers just looked back at what we already have, we would save billions of dollars in future research and future bad treatments, and we would learn so much.

Outcomes Research Is Purposefully Avoided, or Ignored:

You might think in a field with nothing but outcome studies (e.g. Prozac vs. placebo) I might not be able to make this claim, but I do.

Most studies are short term. The few long term studies that exist (e.g. Depakote for maintenance) are either equivocal (e.g. Depakote for maintenance) or show no efficacy (e.g. Depakote for maintenance.) And they are ignored.

But these outcomes are distractions. The question isn’t is Depakote good for maintenance bipolar. The question is, is there any value to the diagnosis of bipolar? In other words, if you called it anxiety, or personality disorder, or anything else, and then treated them ad lib, would the outcome be different? Is there value to the DSM? You might argue the diagnosis leads us to the treatment, but in most cases, meds are used across all diagnoses, and more often than not a diagnosis is created to justify the medication.

Are hospitals valuable? You would think that by now we’d have a clear answer to this, the most expensive of maneuvers. I can say, however, that reducing the length of stay from several months to 5-7 days has not affected the suicide rate. I’m not saying they are or are not valuable, I am saying that I don’t know-- and that’s the problem. It is 2008 and there are more studies on restless leg syndrome then there are on hospital vs. placebo. You know why? See above.

Are one hour sessions associated with better outcomes than 2 minute med checks? I know 2 minute med checks sound bad, what I want to know is if they are actually bad. Higher suicide rates? More days absent from work? More divorce? More sadness?

The system is completely ad hoc, with each party yelling loudly to protect their fiefdom. It allows everyone to declare themselves an expert without having to prove it. Tell a Depakote academic you’re suspicious about the utility of the drug, and he won’t tell you you’re wrong, he will tell you you don’t understand. Try it. He will evade the existing data (“not enough people,” “studies are difficult to conduct,” “we know from clinical experience,” “more work is needed”) and rely on appeal to authority. Appeal to authority is the signal you’re being bull****ted.

Outcomes research will never be conducted in psychiatry because its existence depends on not knowing the answers. It will eventually be conducted on psychiatry. You can’t tell you’re an idiot, someone has to tell you.[/quote]

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Interesting post belligerent. The vast majority of people are really clueless when it comes to the psychiatric/psychologist professions. It is very rare to find someone in the profession who has any integrity or honesty.

Your average pimp has a more deeply developed sense of personal integrity than your average psychiatrist or psychologist. [/quote]

Care to back up your ridiculous statements with anything worthwhile? The crap you’ve come up with in this thread is hilarious.

[quote]mrw173 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Interesting post belligerent. The vast majority of people are really clueless when it comes to the psychiatric/psychologist professions. It is very rare to find someone in the profession who has any integrity or honesty.

Your average pimp has a more deeply developed sense of personal integrity than your average psychiatrist or psychologist.

Care to back up your ridiculous statements with anything worthwhile? The crap you’ve come up with in this thread is hilarious.[/quote]

I’m basing that on personal experience trying to get young female friends away from both groups.

Psychiatrists psychologists have no respect for the law or just common decency, yet they put on a front that they are repsectable people.

With pimps on the other hand there is no illusion as to what you are dealing with.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
mrw173 wrote:
Sifu wrote:

Psychiatrists psychologists have no respect for the law or just common decency, yet they put on a front that they are repsectable people.
[/quote]

You really want to malign the entire profession?

I’ve had at least two really good psychologists in my life and the value they brought to my life and my general happiness is too large to measure. Yeah, some of the other ones were crap-tacular, a good therapist is in general, a very good thing.

[quote]humble wrote:
wirewound wrote:
Meds are the most effective treatment.

Diet and mental hygiene help.

I’d contest that. Their isn’t any solid proof of this.

What med’s do though is mask the problem whatever it may be.

Their is very little objective science in the whole field of this very infantile subject of psychiatry and psychology which in the words of John Taylor Gatto “have offered -->| |<-- this much to the true understanding of human nature” but instead created a gold mine out of the pseudo science of brain management, supposed diagnoses and treatments.

The masking effect can clearly be seen with the reactions people have when they forget to take their meds or stop taking them for any reason.

Results? 7-13 school yard massacres were because the children were on these dangerous psychotropics, and the other 6 are unknown only because the information wasn’t divulged.

This is not to mention the other domestic cases, and other rampages people go on.

This is because psychotropics don’t treat, per se. Treat has been an abused word. They mask and the problem still exists underneath all that chemical numbing down of the human concious, the soul and well being of a person. Once those numbing drugs wear off or are forgotten to be taken or one just builds up a resistance to them (oh yeh, there’s always a stronger med) then the beast which has been breeding underneath explodes in the fits of rage we have seen in the past and will continue to see.

The modern psychotropic drug is the exact same thing as the old water dunking methods they swore by in the past, the old electric shock therapy causing convulsions, bone breakages, brain damage and death, the old lobotomys which failed miserably all the time and were just scientists (albeit mad scientists) mental spoof-trial and error experiments which they misled the public into believing is the answer to the mental states that they witnessed in people.
The only thing is, that lobotomy, shock therapy and water dunking (not to mention countless other supposed and wicked treatments) is now conveniently placed in a mind altering and destroying drug!

Remember that psychiatry and psychology are the same pseudo-sciences that at the turn of the century actually had the nerve (read: complete incompetence) to label an African American slave’s tendency to want to run away from his oppressors as “Drapetomania”. Don’t believe me? Look it up and be shocked.

You know what the treatment was for “Drapetomania”? To whip slaves into obedience and rid them of this mental disease.

The day big pharma comes out and admits, it’s taking people for a ride, is the day markets will crash, economies will crumble and govt leaders will be living in slums! Govts can’t have this and it quite suits their agenda to have people believe that they need to be managed and that the best way to manage them is by using their specially created and very well funded psychotropics.

end rant
[/quote]

Fucking WORD!

[quote]wirewound wrote:
humble wrote:
wirewound wrote:
Meds are the most effective treatment.

Diet and mental hygiene help.

I’d contest that. Their isn’t any solid proof of this.

What med’s do though is mask the problem whatever it may be.

Their is very little objective science in the whole field of this very infantile subject of psychiatry and psychology which in the words of John Taylor Gatto “have offered -->| |<-- this much to the true understanding of human nature” but instead created a gold mine out of the pseudo science of brain management, supposed diagnoses and treatments.

The masking effect can clearly be seen with the reactions people have when they forget to take their meds or stop taking them for any reason.

Results? 7-13 school yard massacres were because the children were on these dangerous psychotropics, and the other 6 are unknown only because the information wasn’t divulged.

This is not to mention the other domestic cases, and other rampages people go on.

This is because psychotropics don’t treat, per se. Treat has been an abused word. They mask and the problem still exists underneath all that chemical numbing down of the human concious, the soul and well being of a person. Once those numbing drugs wear off or are forgotten to be taken or one just builds up a resistance to them (oh yeh, there’s always a stronger med) then the beast which has been breeding underneath explodes in the fits of rage we have seen in the past and will continue to see.

The modern psychotropic drug is the exact same thing as the old water dunking methods they swore by in the past, the old electric shock therapy causing convulsions, bone breakages, brain damage and death, the old lobotomys which failed miserably all the time and were just scientists (albeit mad scientists) mental spoof-trial and error experiments which they misled the public into believing is the answer to the mental states that they witnessed in people.

The only thing is, that lobotomy, shock therapy and water dunking (not to mention countless other supposed and wicked treatments) is now conveniently placed in a mind altering and destroying drug!

Remember that psychiatry and psychology are the same pseudo-sciences that at the turn of the century actually had the nerve (read: complete incompetence) to label an African American slave’s tendency to want to run away from his oppressors as “Drapetomania”. Don’t believe me? Look it up and be shocked.

You know what the treatment was for “Drapetomania”? To whip slaves into obedience and rid them of this mental disease.

The day big pharma comes out and admits, it’s taking people for a ride, is the day markets will crash, economies will crumble and govt leaders will be living in slums! Govts can’t have this and it quite suits their agenda to have people believe that they need to be managed and that the best way to manage them is by using their specially created and very well funded psychotropics.

end rant

You’re an idiot. SPECT scans show significant biological differences in the brain activity of ADHD and non-ADHD subjects. It’s not all a conspiracy by ‘big pharm’.

The meds to treat ADHD are stimulants (except Strattera, which is a norepinephine reuptake inhibitor). ADHD meds are among the most effective and least questionable meds for a given mental illness available except perhaps the major tranquilizers. The side effect trade off is relatively small.

Ritalin, properly prescribed, would be more likely to inhibit violence in children than promote it. Perhaps it’s SSRIs to which you are referring.

Now please get in line behind Tom Cruise for the bus to crazy-town.
[/quote]

I’ve read the research quoted in pro-ADD/ADHD literature, It is obvious there would be differences in brain activity, however, there is no reason to say that they are biological. It is basically just the difference between someone who is interested and concentrating on the subject matter in front of them during the test, and someone who is not really engaged with the material.

[quote]JohnnyBlaze wrote:

I’ve read the research quoted in pro-ADD/ADHD literature, It is obvious there would be differences in brain activity, however, there is no reason to say that they are biological. It is basically just the difference between someone who is interested and concentrating on the subject matter in front of them during the test, and someone who is not really engaged with the material.[/quote]

Actually, my understanding is that SPECT scans (real-time scans) done on ADHD subjects who TRY to concentrate harder on a subject show that there is a paradoxical lack of activity in the areas of the brain most correlated to executive function WHEN THEY ATTEMPT TO FOCUS THEIR ATTENTION (compared to non-ADHD subjects). This is important, and it shows not just that there is less activity in the areas of the brain responsible for executive function, but that by TRYING HARDER to concentrate, people with ADHD have an even more difficult time concentrating! It also explains why stress and frustration aggravate ADHD.

[quote]wirewound wrote:
Sifu wrote:
mrw173 wrote:
Sifu wrote:

Psychiatrists psychologists have no respect for the law or just common decency, yet they put on a front that they are repsectable people.

You really want to malign the entire profession?

I’ve had at least two really good psychologists in my life and the value they brought to my life and my general happiness is too large to measure. Yeah, some of the other ones were crap-tacular, a good therapist is in general, a very good thing.

[/quote]

Sure there are some psyche’s who might not be such bad people, but they are the exception not the rule. I’ve seen too many lives destroyed by the profession. There are some really sick heartless people in psychiatry and psychology.

I had a girlfriend who was run through the mill by those people. They did nothing but harm to her. One of the things that caused me the most grief were the “side effects” of feeding her ritalin for several years as a child. All that ritalin set her up for addiction to cocaine, which is common in former ritalin users.

So I don’t feel bad about maligning the profession. It’s caused me grief, so fuck em.

[quote]wirewound wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:

I’ve read the research quoted in pro-ADD/ADHD literature, It is obvious there would be differences in brain activity, however, there is no reason to say that they are biological. It is basically just the difference between someone who is interested and concentrating on the subject matter in front of them during the test, and someone who is not really engaged with the material.

Actually, my understanding is that SPECT scans (real-time scans) done on ADHD subjects who TRY to concentrate harder on a subject show that there is a paradoxical lack of activity in the areas of the brain most correlated to executive function WHEN THEY ATTEMPT TO FOCUS THEIR ATTENTION (compared to non-ADHD subjects). This is important, and it shows not just that there is less activity in the areas of the brain responsible for executive function, but that by TRYING HARDER to concentrate, people with ADHD have an even more difficult time concentrating! It also explains why stress and frustration aggravate ADHD.

[/quote]

Were the test subjects in the scans ever given add drugs or were they drug free?

[quote]Sifu wrote:
wirewound wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:

I’ve read the research quoted in pro-ADD/ADHD literature, It is obvious there would be differences in brain activity, however, there is no reason to say that they are biological. It is basically just the difference between someone who is interested and concentrating on the subject matter in front of them during the test, and someone who is not really engaged with the material.

Actually, my understanding is that SPECT scans (real-time scans) done on ADHD subjects who TRY to concentrate harder on a subject show that there is a paradoxical lack of activity in the areas of the brain most correlated to executive function WHEN THEY ATTEMPT TO FOCUS THEIR ATTENTION (compared to non-ADHD subjects). This is important, and it shows not just that there is less activity in the areas of the brain responsible for executive function, but that by TRYING HARDER to concentrate, people with ADHD have an even more difficult time concentrating! It also explains why stress and frustration aggravate ADHD.

Were the test subjects in the scans ever given add drugs or were they drug free?[/quote]

Many of them were drug naive, as I understand it. Some were not. It didn’t change the results of the SPECT scans.

For each of those studies was there one study or was there two?

[quote]Sifu wrote:
For each of those studies was there one study or was there two?[/quote]

They are ongoing at Dr. Amen’s clinic.

[quote]wirewound wrote:
Sifu wrote:
For each of those studies was there one study or was there two?

They are ongoing at Dr. Amen’s clinic.[/quote]

As I suspected these are unsubstantiated claims. In order for research to be accepted as fact there have to be at least two studies. The first is the initial study which is published for peer review. The second study has to be an independent peer, replicating the experiment and getting the same results.

Doctor Amen does not have confirmatory studies supporting his findings.