[quote]Sifu wrote:
In Michigan special ed teachers get a six thousand dollar a year bonus. Trust me they are making money. [/quote]
So a $6,000 bonus brings their grand total to $31,000 pre-tax. That’s not much money given the fact that they have to have an under grad degree and then special certifications and depending on the school district a masters to teach special ED.
I would give these teachers 10grand easily for having the willingness to teach these students.
I agree that ADHD medicines are addictive but does that really matter for someone who truly needs it? I mean they will be taking it more or less for life anyway.
Also why do people keep saying there is no way to prove ADHD? They are chemical imbalances that distinguish ADHD and even the specific type of ADHD that someone has based on which hormones are out of balance.
I’d also request that if you’re going to appear knowledgeable about the subject, please say “school psychologist” instead of “school psychiatrist,” because you’re only further mixing up your arguments. School Psychologists can diagnose ADHD, but they can’t prescribe meds.
[quote]CrewPierce wrote:
Sifu wrote:
In Michigan special ed teachers get a six thousand dollar a year bonus. Trust me they are making money.
So a $6,000 bonus brings their grand total to $31,000 pre-tax. That’s not much money given the fact that they have to have an under grad degree and then special certifications and depending on the school district a masters to teach special ED.
I would give these teachers 10grand easily for having the willingness to teach these students.
I agree that ADHD medicines are addictive but does that really matter for someone who truly needs it? I mean they will be taking it more or less for life anyway.
Also why do people keep saying there is no way to prove ADHD? They are chemical imbalances that distinguish ADHD and even the specific type of ADHD that someone has based on which hormones are out of balance.
[/quote]
It is doubtful they are getting as little as $25,000 a year. However if they were that $6,000 is greater than a twenty percent yearly bonus over what a regular teacher gets. Plus they have the summer months in which to do other things in order to supplement their income.
Addiction is a terrible deadly disease that once it is started doesn’t go away. It is one thing to give an addictive drug like morphine or oxycontin to a person who is dying of cancer, because they are on their way out.
It is something else to give a young person who had their whole life ahead of them this terrible disease. Once you are addicted to one drug you are addicted to all drugs.
America consumes 90% of the worlds production of ritalin. That is 300 million people consuming 90%. The other 6 billion are consuming the other 10%. It is only in America where doctors are gung ho to pass out add drugs. In other countries the medical establisments frown upon the practice.
You have access to studies that show add is caused by hormonal imbalances? Where are they?
Just so we’re all clear, this is a Scientology site. I don’t know about the other sites you posted, but if they came from the same place, they’re about as credible as a polyp.[/quote]
[quote]mrw173 wrote:
I’d also request that if you’re going to appear knowledgeable about the subject, please say “school psychologist” instead of “school psychiatrist,” because you’re only further mixing up your arguments. School Psychologists can diagnose ADHD, but they can’t prescribe meds.[/quote]
Interesting. They are allowed to diagnose diseases that need treatment with schedule two narcotics but they are not allowed to prescribe the medications themselves.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
mrw173 wrote:
I’d also request that if you’re going to appear knowledgeable about the subject, please say “school psychologist” instead of “school psychiatrist,” because you’re only further mixing up your arguments. School Psychologists can diagnose ADHD, but they can’t prescribe meds.
Interesting. They are allowed to diagnose diseases that need treatment with schedule two narcotics but they are not allowed to prescribe the medications themselves.
Why is that?[/quote]
First of all, ADHD does not NEED to be treated with “narcotics,” let alone any other kind of medication. It is one treatment option among many, so stop with the spin. You like to speak about this issue as though you’re an expert but continue to show evidence that you know very little about the subject.
Second, psychologists do not typically undergo pharmacology and chemistry classes like medical doctors do. Given the fact that diagnosing ADHD, like any other behavior problem, has no medical test, psychologists are just as capable, and I’d argue often more capable, of diagnosing ADHD than medical doctors.
My guess is that you’re going to spin this into another “Oh well there’s no medical test so it’s not a real disease” argument again, but yet you have yet to offer any sort of legible reply regarding my original response to that argument, which is: that’s the case for everything, including autism, etc. Ever been around an autistic child? Wanna doubt that’s a real disease? How about headaches? What’s the medical test for them? I guess they aren’t real either.
[quote]mrw173 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
mrw173 wrote:
I’d also request that if you’re going to appear knowledgeable about the subject, please say “school psychologist” instead of “school psychiatrist,” because you’re only further mixing up your arguments. School Psychologists can diagnose ADHD, but they can’t prescribe meds.
Interesting. They are allowed to diagnose diseases that need treatment with schedule two narcotics but they are not allowed to prescribe the medications themselves.
Why is that?
First of all, ADHD does not NEED to be treated with “narcotics,” let alone any other kind of medication. It is one treatment option among many, so stop with the spin. You like to speak about this issue as though you’re an expert but continue to show evidence that you know very little about the subject. [/quote]
And you are not acting like you are an expert?!?!?! I am bringing studies provided by a certified doctor of neurology who is recognized around the world as a leading expert in the field. You have provided nothing. But at least we can agree that drugs are not the only answer.
[quote]
Second, psychologists do not typically undergo pharmacology and chemistry classes like medical doctors do. Given the fact that diagnosing ADHD, like any other behavior problem, has no medical test, psychologists are just as capable, and I’d argue often more capable, of diagnosing ADHD than medical doctors. [/quote]
Again you are trying to sound like you are an expert. But you do admit that there is no medical test. You should tell crewpierce, because he is under the impression there is.
So the psychologists can’t prescribe drugs because they don’t have any background in pharmacology. But what about school psychiatrists, aren’t psychiatrists supposed to go to medical school before they go to psychiatric school?
You are making very bold statements about psychologists being more qualified than medical doctors. So can you back that up or am I going to have to make you look like an idiot for writing such a ridiculous statement?
By autistic do you mean a kid who just sits in a corner rocking and not talking to anyone, who obviously has something wrong that the family will bring them to a doctor? Or do you mean someone who appears perfectly normal and had no idea something was wrong until one day out of nowhere they get a call from the school? I have known enough of the latter to have serious doubts about the reliability of many so called diagnosis, especially any coming from school psychologists.
At least with a headache the patient is the one issueing the complaint that something is wrong with them. With autism most often the patient is not aware there is something wrong with themelves and neither is anyone else around them.
According to Doctor Baughman, there is no objective, scientifically proven test that can detect adhd. You have offered nothing in the way of scienced to refute him or any of the information from him I have provided.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
mrw173 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
mrw173 wrote:
I’d also request that if you’re going to appear knowledgeable about the subject, please say “school psychologist” instead of “school psychiatrist,” because you’re only further mixing up your arguments. School Psychologists can diagnose ADHD, but they can’t prescribe meds.
Interesting. They are allowed to diagnose diseases that need treatment with schedule two narcotics but they are not allowed to prescribe the medications themselves.
Why is that?
First of all, ADHD does not NEED to be treated with “narcotics,” let alone any other kind of medication. It is one treatment option among many, so stop with the spin. You like to speak about this issue as though you’re an expert but continue to show evidence that you know very little about the subject.
And you are not acting like you are an expert?!?!?! I am bringing studies provided by a certified doctor of neurology who is recognized around the world as a leading expert in the field. You have provided nothing. But at least we can agree that drugs are not the only answer.
Second, psychologists do not typically undergo pharmacology and chemistry classes like medical doctors do. Given the fact that diagnosing ADHD, like any other behavior problem, has no medical test, psychologists are just as capable, and I’d argue often more capable, of diagnosing ADHD than medical doctors.
Again you are trying to sound like you are an expert. But you do admit that there is no medical test. You should tell crewpierce, because he is under the impression there is.
So the psychologists can’t prescribe drugs because they don’t have any background in pharmacology. But what about school psychiatrists, aren’t psychiatrists supposed to go to medical school before they go to psychiatric school?
You are making very bold statements about psychologists being more qualified than medical doctors. So can you back that up or am I going to have to make you look like an idiot for writing such a ridiculous statement?
My guess is that you’re going to spin this into another “Oh well there’s no medical test so it’s not a real disease” argument again, but yet you have yet to offer any sort of legible reply regarding my original response to that argument, which is: that’s the case for everything, including autism, etc.
Ever been around an autistic child? Wanna doubt that’s a real disease? How about headaches? What’s the medical test for them? I guess they aren’t real either.
By autistic do you mean a kid who just sits in a corner rocking and not talking to anyone, who obviously has something wrong that the family will bring them to a doctor? Or do you mean someone who appears perfectly normal and had no idea something was wrong until one day out of nowhere they get a call from the school?
I have known enough of the latter to have serious doubts about the reliability of many so called diagnosis, especially any coming from school psychologists.
At least with a headache the patient is the one issueing the complaint that something is wrong with them. With autism most often the patient is not aware there is something wrong with themelves and neither is anyone else around them.
According to Doctor Baughman, there is no objective, scientifically proven test that can detect adhd. You have offered nothing in the way of scienced to refute him or any of the information from him I have provided.
[/quote]
If it makes you feel any better, I’m certainly not an expert when it comes to ADHD. I do, however, specialize in other areas of clinical psychology, specifically other childhood behavioral disorders, and have received extensive training in diagnosing ADHD.
Despite that, I do not consider myself an expert in ADHD. I don’t know what you do for a living, but I’m assuming that I’m more qualified to speak about this subject than you are.
There is no such thing as a “school psychiatrist.” It’s school psychologist. The reason I believe that a psychologist is more qualified to diagnose ADHD than the typical MD has to do with how each is trained, and what is actually done to diagnose ADHD.
Medical doctors, in particular psychiatrists, do not receive very much, if any at all, training in administering neuropsych batteries. Psychologists do. This happens to be the best way to diagnose ADHD (no, it’s still not a medical test). Neurologists may be adequately trained to administer these batteries, but often aren’t the first person to see these kids.
Again - with the Autism thing. Lots of people in this thread seem convinced that doctors and psychologists are going around diagnosing people left and right with this and that. It’s just not true.
To be diagnosed with something like ADHD or autism, there has to be significant impairment in the life of the individual. It’s easy for you to sit there and cite one example of a person, and then act like it’s proof that these disorders don’t exist.
Like I said previously in this thread, I personally do not puck much stock in diagnoses. If someone comes to me complaining of attention problems, and it’s getting in the way of their social life and occupational pursuits, does it really matter whether or not ADHD qualifies in your, or anyone else’s, definition of “disease?”
I don’t think so. If someone presents to a clinical setting, is complaining of symptoms, and their life is affected by it, then there’s probably something legit going on. This neurologist you keep citing seems to ignore this very important aspect of the basic way the field works. There are no medical tests for 99.9% of what comes into my office, and I could care less about that.
Do I think ADHD is over-diagnosed? In certain populations, probably. Do I think our society relies too much on medication for this sort of thing? Yes - but I understand why. That has nothing to do with ADHD being a legit phenomenon, though.
So you are a psychologist? What type. What is your educational level? Do you have a doctorate degree or merely an associates degree?
I do agree with you that if someone presents themself into a clinic with a complaint that there may be something to look into. But that is not how the vast majority of people have ended up getting diagnosed.
I have friends who didn’t know there was anything wrong with themselves or their kid until one day out of nowhere they get a call from the school saying the school psyciatrist has found something wrong with their kid.
The term school psychiatrist may have fallen out of favor but it does get used. School psychologist isn’t much less disingenuous. The purpose of using either term is to decieve.
The term school psychiatrist may have fallen out of favor but it does get used. School psychologist isn’t much less disingenuous. The purpose of using either term is to decieve.
[/quote]
Do you realize how pig-fuckingly stupid you sound when you disparage an entire profession?
The term school psychiatrist may have fallen out of favor but it does get used. School psychologist isn’t much less disingenuous. The purpose of using either term is to decieve.
Do you realize how pig-fuckingly stupid you sound when you disparage an entire profession?
[/quote]
The term school psychiatrist may have fallen out of favor but it does get used. School psychologist isn’t much less disingenuous. The purpose of using either term is to decieve.
Do you realize how pig-fuckingly stupid you sound when you disparage an entire profession?
What do you know about the profession? [/quote]
I’ve been to several psychiatrists and psychologists. Some of them have really sucked. Some have been very, very helpful.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
So you are a psychologist? What type. What is your educational level? Do you have a doctorate degree or merely an associates degree?
I do agree with you that if someone presents themself into a clinic with a complaint that there may be something to look into. But that is not how the vast majority of people have ended up getting diagnosed.
I have friends who didn’t know there was anything wrong with themselves or their kid until one day out of nowhere they get a call from the school saying the school psyciatrist has found something wrong with their kid.
The term school psychiatrist may have fallen out of favor but it does get used. School psychologist isn’t much less disingenuous. The purpose of using either term is to decieve.
[/quote]
I am in a Ph.D. clinical psychology program, training to get my doctorate. Like I said, my expertise is primarily in childhood behavior problems. Specifically, my expertise is in Tourette Syndrome. The reason that I know a lot about ADHD is because ADHD is a disorder that often co-occurs with Tourette’s.
The example you cited is just an example. I’m sure we could all sit down and cite examples of occurrences that go against the grain. This is not necessarily evidence of anything in particular. On a daily basis, I work with individuals in the field who continually amaze me with their intelligence and impact on clients. On the other hand, I routinelly come across individuals who give the field a bad name, and their incompetence is frightening.
The fact that there are people out there misdiagnosing the condition is not evidence that the condition does not exist.
Your contention that most people don’t end up being diagnosed in a clinical setting presenting with impairment is an empirical question. I’d be interested to read any material stating that more than 50% of individuals get diagnosed in the manner consistent with what you describe.
[quote]mrw173 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
So you are a psychologist? What type. What is your educational level? Do you have a doctorate degree or merely an associates degree?
I do agree with you that if someone presents themself into a clinic with a complaint that there may be something to look into. But that is not how the vast majority of people have ended up getting diagnosed.
I have friends who didn’t know there was anything wrong with themselves or their kid until one day out of nowhere they get a call from the school saying the school psyciatrist has found something wrong with their kid.
The term school psychiatrist may have fallen out of favor but it does get used. School psychologist isn’t much less disingenuous. The purpose of using either term is to decieve.
I am in a Ph.D. clinical psychology program, training to get my doctorate. Like I said, my expertise is primarily in childhood behavior problems. Specifically, my expertise is in Tourette Syndrome. The reason that I know a lot about ADHD is because ADHD is a disorder that often co-occurs with Tourette’s. [/quote]
I’m sure you will correct me if I am wrong. A doctorate degree is the highest level of education in that field. It’s 8-10 years of school. A certified clinical psychologist is legally qualified to make psychological diagnosis. A clinical psychologist can have their own practice.
School psychologists are something very different from clinical psychologists. You can become a school psychologist with as little as a two year associates degree and a couple of months internship. The National Association of School Psychologists currently recognizes 60 credit hours as the most appropriate level of training needed. School psychologists who do not have a higher level of education are not permitted to make diagnosis or work outside of a school.
Most people do not know about the wide range of educational levels one can have and still refer to themself as a psychologist. When people hear psychologist they think oh he has a doctorate, like Doctor Phil. They don’t realize this guy may only have an associates degree. This is why I say school psychologists are deceptively disingenuous.
Interesting what you wrote about tourette’s. I had a roommate who had been given ritalin as a child. When I lived with him he had a fixation with the N word. One day he just started saying it in the checkout line of a K Mart in the ghetto. A claim of tourettes kept things from getting very ugly. He stopped saying it after that. I always thought it was the drugs had fried his brain. Now I find out this is common with adhd, I find it interesting.
When I think about some of the kids who I went to high school with who became psychologists or doctors it’s real scary. Especially when I think of all the drugs some of them used. I knew one kid who became a psychologist, the same week he started his new job as staff psychologist at a rehab I saw him at a club rolling on ecstasy. It was a real eye opener.
[quote]
The fact that there are people out there misdiagnosing the condition is not evidence that the condition does not exist. [/quote]
That is a good point. However all the misdiagnosis of and drugging of children has given the impression that his condition is widespread and the drugs are safe. This is why we now see this creeping up into adults.
The drugs have the ability to cause permanent drastic changes in the body. Because of that I think they should be used with a great deal more caution. I think adhd drugs should be reserved for only the most seriously fried individual who nothing else has helped and even then maybe you shouldn’t go messing with their brain chemistry because you might fry out what little they have left.
I don’t know if you have ever met a person who has fried their brain doing drugs, but I have. I know one guy who can talk for hours and nobody knows what the hell he is talking about. I don’t know what drugs he did but observing him gave me a healthy fear of them.
The biggest user of adhd drugs has been children. The vast majority of them were pushed on drugs by the schools. School psychologists have been the primary pushers. The vast majority of school psychologists are not clinical psychologists, which is something you should know.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
mrw173 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
So you are a psychologist? What type. What is your educational level? Do you have a doctorate degree or merely an associates degree?
I do agree with you that if someone presents themself into a clinic with a complaint that there may be something to look into. But that is not how the vast majority of people have ended up getting diagnosed.
I have friends who didn’t know there was anything wrong with themselves or their kid until one day out of nowhere they get a call from the school saying the school psyciatrist has found something wrong with their kid.
The term school psychiatrist may have fallen out of favor but it does get used. School psychologist isn’t much less disingenuous. The purpose of using either term is to decieve.
I am in a Ph.D. clinical psychology program, training to get my doctorate. Like I said, my expertise is primarily in childhood behavior problems. Specifically, my expertise is in Tourette Syndrome. The reason that I know a lot about ADHD is because ADHD is a disorder that often co-occurs with Tourette’s.
I’m sure you will correct me if I am wrong. A doctorate degree is the highest level of education in that field. It’s 8-10 years of school. A certified clinical psychologist is legally qualified to make psychological diagnosis. A clinical psychologist can have their own practice.
School psychologists are something very different from clinical psychologists. You can become a school psychologist with as little as a two year associates degree and a couple of months internship. The National Association of School Psychologists currently recognizes 60 credit hours as the most appropriate level of training needed. School psychologists who do not have a higher level of education are not permitted to make diagnosis or work outside of a school.
Most people do not know about the wide range of educational levels one can have and still refer to themself as a psychologist. When people hear psychologist they think oh he has a doctorate, like Doctor Phil. They don’t realize this guy may only have an associates degree. This is why I say school psychologists are deceptively disingenuous.
Interesting what you wrote about tourette’s. I had a roommate who had been given ritalin as a child. When I lived with him he had a fixation with the N word. One day he just started saying it in the checkout line of a K Mart in the ghetto. A claim of tourettes kept things from getting very ugly. He stopped saying it after that. I always thought it was the drugs had fried his brain. Now I find out this is common with adhd, I find it interesting.
The example you cited is just an example. I’m sure we could all sit down and cite examples of occurrences that go against the grain. This is not necessarily evidence of anything in particular. On a daily basis, I work with individuals in the field who continually amaze me with their intelligence and impact on clients. On the other hand, I routinelly come across individuals who give the field a bad name, and their incompetence is frightening.
When I think about some of the kids who I went to high school with who became psychologists or doctors it’s real scary. Especially when I think of all the drugs some of them used. I knew one kid who became a psychologist, the same week he started his new job as staff psychologist at a rehab I saw him at a club rolling on ecstasy. It was a real eye opener.
The fact that there are people out there misdiagnosing the condition is not evidence that the condition does not exist.
That is a good point. However all the misdiagnosis of and drugging of children has given the impression that his condition is widespread and the drugs are safe. This is why we now see this creeping up into adults.
The drugs have the ability to cause permanent drastic changes in the body. Because of that I think they should be used with a great deal more caution. I think adhd drugs should be reserved for only the most seriously fried individual who nothing else has helped and even then maybe you shouldn’t go messing with their brain chemistry because you might fry out what little they have left.
I don’t know if you have ever met a person who has fried their brain doing drugs, but I have. I know one guy who can talk for hours and nobody knows what the hell he is talking about. I don’t know what drugs he did but observing him gave me a healthy fear of them.
Your contention that most people don’t end up being diagnosed in a clinical setting presenting with impairment is an empirical question. I’d be interested to read any material stating that more than 50% of individuals get diagnosed in the manner consistent with what you describe.
The biggest user of adhd drugs has been children. The vast majority of them were pushed on drugs by the schools. School psychologists have been the primary pushers. The vast majority of school psychologists are not clinical psychologists, which is something you should know. [/quote]
School psychologists typically have a doctorate degree. The term “psychologist” is dictated by the state. Each state has different requirements to be able to legally use the term. For example, in just about every state now, you cannot refer to yourself as a psychologist unless you have a doctorate. That’s why a lot of people may call themselves counselors, etc. when they have a master’s degree. I believe, in the large majority if not all states, it’s the same way with school psychology.
I do tend to agree with you that medication may be used too often. I understand why this is the case though. Pharmaceutical companies are able to pay a lot of money for marketing, and they are run like a business. Most alternative treatments cannot compete with that.
What you have to think about, though, is that it’s not the school psychologists who are prescribing medication. In some cases, they may be making the original diagnosis, and then referring out for treatment options. In other cases, they may not even feel like they have the expertise to diagnose, and may therefore refer out to begin with. The people prescribing the medications are MD’s. People do have to understand that there may be longterm side effects from using medications, but a responsible doctor will discuss that issue, along with alternative treatments, with the family and client. I have no idea how often this actually happens since I’m not in a medical setting. My guess is that the stress of the healthcare system, where doctors are seeing another patient in 10 minutes, results in a less than thorough discussion of those topics.
[quote]mrw173 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
mrw173 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
So you are a psychologist? What type. What is your educational level? Do you have a doctorate degree or merely an associates degree?
I do agree with you that if someone presents themself into a clinic with a complaint that there may be something to look into. But that is not how the vast majority of people have ended up getting diagnosed.
I have friends who didn’t know there was anything wrong with themselves or their kid until one day out of nowhere they get a call from the school saying the school psyciatrist has found something wrong with their kid.
The term school psychiatrist may have fallen out of favor but it does get used. School psychologist isn’t much less disingenuous. The purpose of using either term is to decieve.
I am in a Ph.D. clinical psychology program, training to get my doctorate. Like I said, my expertise is primarily in childhood behavior problems. Specifically, my expertise is in Tourette Syndrome. The reason that I know a lot about ADHD is because ADHD is a disorder that often co-occurs with Tourette’s.
I’m sure you will correct me if I am wrong. A doctorate degree is the highest level of education in that field. It’s 8-10 years of school. A certified clinical psychologist is legally qualified to make psychological diagnosis. A clinical psychologist can have their own practice.
School psychologists are something very different from clinical psychologists. You can become a school psychologist with as little as a two year associates degree and a couple of months internship. The National Association of School Psychologists currently recognizes 60 credit hours as the most appropriate level of training needed. School psychologists who do not have a higher level of education are not permitted to make diagnosis or work outside of a school.
Most people do not know about the wide range of educational levels one can have and still refer to themself as a psychologist. When people hear psychologist they think oh he has a doctorate, like Doctor Phil. They don’t realize this guy may only have an associates degree. This is why I say school psychologists are deceptively disingenuous.
Interesting what you wrote about tourette’s. I had a roommate who had been given ritalin as a child. When I lived with him he had a fixation with the N word. One day he just started saying it in the checkout line of a K Mart in the ghetto. A claim of tourettes kept things from getting very ugly. He stopped saying it after that. I always thought it was the drugs had fried his brain. Now I find out this is common with adhd, I find it interesting.
The example you cited is just an example. I’m sure we could all sit down and cite examples of occurrences that go against the grain. This is not necessarily evidence of anything in particular. On a daily basis, I work with individuals in the field who continually amaze me with their intelligence and impact on clients. On the other hand, I routinelly come across individuals who give the field a bad name, and their incompetence is frightening.
When I think about some of the kids who I went to high school with who became psychologists or doctors it’s real scary. Especially when I think of all the drugs some of them used. I knew one kid who became a psychologist, the same week he started his new job as staff psychologist at a rehab I saw him at a club rolling on ecstasy. It was a real eye opener.
The fact that there are people out there misdiagnosing the condition is not evidence that the condition does not exist.
That is a good point. However all the misdiagnosis of and drugging of children has given the impression that his condition is widespread and the drugs are safe. This is why we now see this creeping up into adults.
The drugs have the ability to cause permanent drastic changes in the body. Because of that I think they should be used with a great deal more caution. I think adhd drugs should be reserved for only the most seriously fried individual who nothing else has helped and even then maybe you shouldn’t go messing with their brain chemistry because you might fry out what little they have left.
I don’t know if you have ever met a person who has fried their brain doing drugs, but I have. I know one guy who can talk for hours and nobody knows what the hell he is talking about. I don’t know what drugs he did but observing him gave me a healthy fear of them.
Your contention that most people don’t end up being diagnosed in a clinical setting presenting with impairment is an empirical question. I’d be interested to read any material stating that more than 50% of individuals get diagnosed in the manner consistent with what you describe.
The biggest user of adhd drugs has been children. The vast majority of them were pushed on drugs by the schools. School psychologists have been the primary pushers. The vast majority of school psychologists are not clinical psychologists, which is something you should know.
School psychologists typically have a doctorate degree. [/quote] That is not what the National Association of School Psychologists says.
According to the NASP Research Committee (NASP Research Committee, 2007), in 2004-05, 33% of school psychologists possessed Master’s degrees, 35% the Educational Specialist (Ed.S.) degree, and 32% doctoral (Ph.D., Psy.D., or Ed.D.) degrees.
35% have an Ed.s degree thich is 60 credit hours. Since that is the largest percentage that is most typical.
In Michigan were I live it is even less. School Psychology Credentialing Resources
“Preliminary School Psychologist-requires a minimum of 45 graduate semester hours”
The drug companies will also give out free samples of their kiddy crack. Crack dealers in the ghetto have a saying, “The first rock is free, after that you will pay”.
[quote]
What you have to think about, though, is that it’s not the school psychologists who are prescribing medication. In some cases, they may be making the original diagnosis, and then referring out for treatment options. In other cases, they may not even feel like they have the expertise to diagnose, and may therefore refer out to begin with. The people prescribing the medications are MD’s. [/quote]
Ah yes, the all important hand off to a medical professional. Once the schools drilled it into a parents head that their kid had to be put on drugs in order to attend school, they sent them to a cooperative doctor who the parents would be able to demand the drugs from. This way the schools shifted legal liability to a liscenced doctor and got themselves off of the hook. I am familiar with this scam.
[quote]
People do have to understand that there may be longterm side effects from using medications, but a responsible doctor will discuss that issue, along with alternative treatments, with the family and client. I have no idea how often this actually happens since I’m not in a medical setting. My guess is that the stress of the healthcare system, where doctors are seeing another patient in 10 minutes, results in a less than thorough discussion of those topics.[/quote]
Brain scans on ritalin users show an average 10% loss of brain mass. Biopsys on cardiac tissue show permanent structural changes at the cellular level in the heart. Addiction to a drug that has a response in the part of the brain that is responsible for addiction, that is four time higher than cocaine.
Addiction is a genie that once it is let out of the bottle it never goes back in. The massive addiction response to ritalin is minimized by doctors. People have even been outright lied to and given the impression that the body can tell the difference between a prescription drug and a street drug.
Ignorance is bliss. Most people are oblivious as to what these drugs do.
Hypocrates admonished future doctors that above all else they must do no harm. This concept has been lost when it comes to adhd.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
mrw173 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
mrw173 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
So you are a psychologist? What type. What is your educational level? Do you have a doctorate degree or merely an associates degree?
I do agree with you that if someone presents themself into a clinic with a complaint that there may be something to look into. But that is not how the vast majority of people have ended up getting diagnosed.
I have friends who didn’t know there was anything wrong with themselves or their kid until one day out of nowhere they get a call from the school saying the school psyciatrist has found something wrong with their kid.
The term school psychiatrist may have fallen out of favor but it does get used. School psychologist isn’t much less disingenuous. The purpose of using either term is to decieve.
I am in a Ph.D. clinical psychology program, training to get my doctorate. Like I said, my expertise is primarily in childhood behavior problems. Specifically, my expertise is in Tourette Syndrome. The reason that I know a lot about ADHD is because ADHD is a disorder that often co-occurs with Tourette’s.
I’m sure you will correct me if I am wrong. A doctorate degree is the highest level of education in that field. It’s 8-10 years of school. A certified clinical psychologist is legally qualified to make psychological diagnosis. A clinical psychologist can have their own practice.
School psychologists are something very different from clinical psychologists. You can become a school psychologist with as little as a two year associates degree and a couple of months internship. The National Association of School Psychologists currently recognizes 60 credit hours as the most appropriate level of training needed. School psychologists who do not have a higher level of education are not permitted to make diagnosis or work outside of a school.
Most people do not know about the wide range of educational levels one can have and still refer to themself as a psychologist. When people hear psychologist they think oh he has a doctorate, like Doctor Phil. They don’t realize this guy may only have an associates degree. This is why I say school psychologists are deceptively disingenuous.
Interesting what you wrote about tourette’s. I had a roommate who had been given ritalin as a child. When I lived with him he had a fixation with the N word. One day he just started saying it in the checkout line of a K Mart in the ghetto. A claim of tourettes kept things from getting very ugly. He stopped saying it after that. I always thought it was the drugs had fried his brain. Now I find out this is common with adhd, I find it interesting.
The example you cited is just an example. I’m sure we could all sit down and cite examples of occurrences that go against the grain. This is not necessarily evidence of anything in particular. On a daily basis, I work with individuals in the field who continually amaze me with their intelligence and impact on clients. On the other hand, I routinelly come across individuals who give the field a bad name, and their incompetence is frightening.
When I think about some of the kids who I went to high school with who became psychologists or doctors it’s real scary. Especially when I think of all the drugs some of them used. I knew one kid who became a psychologist, the same week he started his new job as staff psychologist at a rehab I saw him at a club rolling on ecstasy. It was a real eye opener.
The fact that there are people out there misdiagnosing the condition is not evidence that the condition does not exist.
That is a good point. However all the misdiagnosis of and drugging of children has given the impression that his condition is widespread and the drugs are safe. This is why we now see this creeping up into adults.
The drugs have the ability to cause permanent drastic changes in the body. Because of that I think they should be used with a great deal more caution. I think adhd drugs should be reserved for only the most seriously fried individual who nothing else has helped and even then maybe you shouldn’t go messing with their brain chemistry because you might fry out what little they have left.
I don’t know if you have ever met a person who has fried their brain doing drugs, but I have. I know one guy who can talk for hours and nobody knows what the hell he is talking about. I don’t know what drugs he did but observing him gave me a healthy fear of them.
Your contention that most people don’t end up being diagnosed in a clinical setting presenting with impairment is an empirical question. I’d be interested to read any material stating that more than 50% of individuals get diagnosed in the manner consistent with what you describe.
The biggest user of adhd drugs has been children. The vast majority of them were pushed on drugs by the schools. School psychologists have been the primary pushers. The vast majority of school psychologists are not clinical psychologists, which is something you should know.
School psychologists typically have a doctorate degree. That is not what the National Association of School Psychologists says.
According to the NASP Research Committee (NASP Research Committee, 2007), in 2004-05, 33% of school psychologists possessed Master’s degrees, 35% the Educational Specialist (Ed.S.) degree, and 32% doctoral (Ph.D., Psy.D., or Ed.D.) degrees.
35% have an Ed.s degree thich is 60 credit hours. Since that is the largest percentage that is most typical.
In Michigan were I live it is even less. School Psychology Credentialing Resources
“Preliminary School Psychologist-requires a minimum of 45 graduate semester hours”
The term “psychologist” is dictated by the state. Each state has different requirements to be able to legally use the term. For example, in just about every state now, you cannot refer to yourself as a psychologist unless you have a doctorate. That’s why a lot of people may call themselves counselors, etc. when they have a master’s degree. I believe, in the large majority if not all states, it’s the same way with school psychology.
I do tend to agree with you that medication may be used too often. I understand why this is the case though. Pharmaceutical companies are able to pay a lot of money for marketing, and they are run like a business. Most alternative treatments cannot compete with that.
The drug companies will also give out free samples of their kiddy crack. Crack dealers in the ghetto have a saying, “The first rock is free, after that you will pay”.
What you have to think about, though, is that it’s not the school psychologists who are prescribing medication. In some cases, they may be making the original diagnosis, and then referring out for treatment options. In other cases, they may not even feel like they have the expertise to diagnose, and may therefore refer out to begin with. The people prescribing the medications are MD’s.
Ah yes, the all important hand off to a medical professional. Once the schools drilled it into a parents head that their kid had to be put on drugs in order to attend school, they sent them to a cooperative doctor who the parents would be able to demand the drugs from. This way the schools shifted legal liability to a liscenced doctor and got themselves off of the hook. I am familiar with this scam.
People do have to understand that there may be longterm side effects from using medications, but a responsible doctor will discuss that issue, along with alternative treatments, with the family and client. I have no idea how often this actually happens since I’m not in a medical setting. My guess is that the stress of the healthcare system, where doctors are seeing another patient in 10 minutes, results in a less than thorough discussion of those topics.
Brain scans on ritalin users show an average 10% loss of brain mass. Biopsys on cardiac tissue show permanent structural changes at the cellular level in the heart. Addiction to a drug that has a response in the part of the brain that is responsible for addiction, that is four time higher than cocaine.
Addiction is a genie that once it is let out of the bottle it never goes back in. The massive addiction response to ritalin is minimized by doctors. People have even been outright lied to and given the impression that the body can tell the difference between a prescription drug and a street drug.
Ignorance is bliss. Most people are oblivious as to what these drugs do.
Hypocrates admonished future doctors that above all else they must do no harm. This concept has been lost when it comes to adhd.[/quote]
Keep in mind 60 credit hours is 3 years (typically), and does not include the one year internship that is often required for graduation and licensure. In essence, it’s a 4-year graduate level degree, and considered a “specialist” degree.
Three years of schooling and a one year internship is not enough education to be making the call that turns someone into a drug addict for the rest of their life.
In Michigan you can get started with as little as 45 credit hours and a 600 hour internship. 45 credit hours is a two year degree. 600 hours breaks down into 15 weeks if you work 40 hours a week.
Picked this up from an excellent blog, thelastpsychiatrist.com. This guy is the clearest thinker I’ve ever read on the subject of psychiatry.
What’s Wrong With Research In Psychiatry?
Dynastic:
There are no independent psychiatric researchers. Young academics are mentored by older academics; this isn’t optional, for either person. In virtually no circumstance do they study something entirely of their own choosing, it is either an outgrowth of the mentors’ research, or is the mentors’ research.
Distant from reality:
Young academics almost never work outside of the university. Theirs is all selection bias. The only patients they see are the ones the university gives them: either Medicaid/indigent on the inpatient unit, or patients of the disposition to want to be involved in clinical trials. Academics are like government economists: “we haven’t had two consecutive quarters of declining GDP, so we’re not in a recession.” Regular psychiatrists are the management at Wal Mart: “I’m not sure what this is called, but no one is buying anything.”
Groupthink:
Academic psychiatrists are nearly all on the same page, and refer to one another as if they have a relationship, even when they’ve never met. (“Chuck Nemeroff is doing some good work on…”) It’s pointless to list the other characteristics of groupthink here, except to highlight one: the purpose of groupthink is not to promote an ideology, but self-preservation, and this is unconscious. They don’t realize that their lives are devoted to preserving the group, yet young researchers are brought on who connect with the group; peer reviewers-- and journal editors-- come from the group; grant reviewers, and NIMH people themselves came from, and support the group.
An example of groupthink preservation is the referencing of studies. Academics support their propositions with previous studies; however, no one checks the accuracy of these studies. No one has the time, and the group necessarily must trust the work of others in the group. Even if an error were to be found, it would be described as an isolated error. A cursory stroll through this site alone suggests just how “isolated” such errors really are.
Financially isolated:
Medicine is a market. Buyers and sellers.
Academics make a salary, but their survival at university depends on the grants they can bring in. That means their market, their customers, are funding agencies, not patients. It doesn’t mean they don’t care about patients, it means that the service they provide is nuanced and directed towards Pharma or the NIH.
If the funding agencies are stacked with people who like antiepileptics for bipolar; if the grant goes to Pfizer who is looking to create a bipolar indication, etc, etc, that’s the research that can be expected. I’m not even worried that the results will be… predestined. I’m worried that such pressures direct what kind of research, what kind of questions get asked, at all.
Too much data
We’re busy talking about bias and hidden results and skewed statistics and nonsense. So we call for more studies, as if they will somehow be better studies, despite no other structural changes being made. The reality is that we have information inflation: new studies have less value because they get lost; and old studies completely disappear, as if somehow their validity is temporal.
There are a quadrillion studies already conducted in psychiatry. There is plenty of data that can be analyzed, meta-analyzed, pooled, parsed. If all current research ground to an immediate halt, and researchers just looked back at what we already have, we would save billions of dollars in future research and future bad treatments, and we would learn so much.
Outcomes Research Is Purposefully Avoided, or Ignored:
You might think in a field with nothing but outcome studies (e.g. Prozac vs. placebo) I might not be able to make this claim, but I do.
Most studies are short term. The few long term studies that exist (e.g. Depakote for maintenance) are either equivocal (e.g. Depakote for maintenance) or show no efficacy (e.g. Depakote for maintenance.) And they are ignored.
But these outcomes are distractions. The question isn’t is Depakote good for maintenance bipolar. The question is, is there any value to the diagnosis of bipolar? In other words, if you called it anxiety, or personality disorder, or anything else, and then treated them ad lib, would the outcome be different? Is there value to the DSM? You might argue the diagnosis leads us to the treatment, but in most cases, meds are used across all diagnoses, and more often than not a diagnosis is created to justify the medication.
Are hospitals valuable? You would think that by now we’d have a clear answer to this, the most expensive of maneuvers. I can say, however, that reducing the length of stay from several months to 5-7 days has not affected the suicide rate. I’m not saying they are or are not valuable, I am saying that I don’t know-- and that’s the problem. It is 2008 and there are more studies on restless leg syndrome then there are on hospital vs. placebo. You know why? See above.
Are one hour sessions associated with better outcomes than 2 minute med checks? I know 2 minute med checks sound bad, what I want to know is if they are actually bad. Higher suicide rates? More days absent from work? More divorce? More sadness?
The system is completely ad hoc, with each party yelling loudly to protect their fiefdom. It allows everyone to declare themselves an expert without having to prove it. Tell a Depakote academic you’re suspicious about the utility of the drug, and he won’t tell you you’re wrong, he will tell you you don’t understand. Try it. He will evade the existing data (“not enough people,” “studies are difficult to conduct,” “we know from clinical experience,” “more work is needed”) and rely on appeal to authority. Appeal to authority is the signal you’re being bull****ted.
Outcomes research will never be conducted in psychiatry because its existence depends on not knowing the answers. It will eventually be conducted on psychiatry. You can’t tell you’re an idiot, someone has to tell you.
Interesting post belligerent. The vast majority of people are really clueless when it comes to the psychiatric/psychologist professions. It is very rare to find someone in the profession who has any integrity or honesty.
Your average pimp has a more deeply developed sense of personal integrity than your average psychiatrist or psychologist.