Hi,
Ive been on HRT for nearly 4 years now I think. Once we got my levels stable we stopped doing labs so often. To the point with me being in grad school and busy as heck working too, we did not do labs in two years. So we just redid labs and my Estradiol (ROche ECLIA method) is 59.1.
[quote]bluecollarjock wrote:
Hi,
Ive been on HRT for nearly 4 years now I think. Once we got my levels stable we stopped doing labs so often. To the point with me being in grad school and busy as heck working too, we did not do labs in two years. So we just redid labs and my Estradiol (ROche ECLIA method) is 59.1.
Somehow on the same T and adex doses it crept up in the past two years. I am on 200mg Test per week, I do M/W/F SubQ (just started subQ two months ago) and adex M/W/F .5 tab.
Is there any method to the madness of figuring out my new dose to cut my estrogen down? Thankfully I have not felt awful effects at this level, and not even sure how long its been that high.
I got some other things out of range I need to look into, but many of them have always been an issue for me, even before HRT. High Iron, AST, ALT, those freaking things were always high on me even before HRT but still persist. I donate blood once every 3-4 months if I remember. My doc wants me to start donating more, because my RBC, hemoglobin, and hemocrit are high too.
I do not think I can cut the adex pills into anything smaller then halves…so should I maybe start taking a full tab one of the days per week and 1/2 tab the other two days as normal?
Thanks[/quote]
Is this a different test method than you used previously? What is the sliding range from low to high?
Is your adex source a local pharmacy or online research chemical? If the latter you may be buying an under-dosed or fake product. That’s another possibility.
Hows your nipple sensitivity and what about mood and libido?
Straight from Walgreens brotha…dont think its a bad product causing problems
No nipple sensitivity right now, mood and libido seem normal…
Ive always used Labcorp as far as doctor checking in on me…
Range on the form is 7.6-42.6
Im curious because Im on double the dose of adex most take it seems but Im still double the level of estrogen suggested on here…but it crept up that way…wondering what other factors could have influenced it…gonna bump up adex dose maybe one full tab on Monday and half tabs on Wed/Fri see if I feel any better or notice a difference
You’re also on double the T of most folks…200mg/wk is above average for sure. I think the general consensus is 1mg AI per 100mg T. How are your T/free T levels? KSMan has a formula for figuring your AI requirement, but I don’t know it offhand.
I think that you should get your T levels checked. 200mg per week is a pretty decent dose. You’ll need more AI as it seems your not an over responder. How is your weight and body fat % at?
By the way, check your messages.
I am 5’10, 255 pounds, Im guessing 11-12% BF right now. Before everyone jumps on the “you are big” thing that on other forums guys question, I was a 235lb 17 year old fullback and linebacker…and Ive been lifting for 28 years non stop minus 3 years of severe medical issues leading to the HRT (nothing to do with hormones to start, but botched surgeries, internal infections, and being over medicated and on conflicting medications nearly killed me, my hormones, my immune system, and my digestive system).
Most of my adult life I have been 235-245 lbs and 10-12% BF. A few years ago I cut calories and was doing intervals in the morning and hard lifts at night ,and got down to 234lbs and 7% BF measured multiple times by a dunk tank. Just giving a little background because on another forum when I get asked these questions and give answers, people do not believe me, want me to post pictures, and say I am the size of a pro BB…well I am not and I do not BB.
If you hang around D1 and pro football players I am normal to small size, as my mom will joke when she sees pictures of me next to NFL guys I look like a midget.
With that being said Ive just ending a stressful year of finishing grad school and a psychotic slumlord driving me batty…and I have been eating way more carbs than usual, and not sleeping much due to the noise issues (moving this weekend thankfully).
So I know I am not 7% but my goals are to get back to meat and veggies, smashing BCAAs and Fish Oil, and lots of shakes and getting back down to lean BF numbers.
3-4 years ago we tried various levels of T, starting at 100mg, going up to 200mg for a long while where I felt good and labs were good, then I wanted to back down and tried to back off, but eventually at 100mg week felt like crap mentally, and said heck with it went back to 200mg.
My doc reasons if 100-150mg is good for average sized males, 200mg is not outrageous for someone of my natural size and with the low T numbers I started with.
I am currently 1027ng/dL T level, with Free T at 35.4pg/mL doing 200mg week SubQ
I wish I could do some sort of “restart” and be off all of this stuff, but my doc is not familiar with restarts and I do not want to risk some sort of crash and feel awful.
I don’t think there is any point people not believing you. You have nothing to gain in lieing.
At that body fat %, estradiol wouldn’t be that high unless you have genetic pre-deposition for higher aromitase activity, which is something we really can’t determine. There are many guys here who use those AI doses who are much smaller then you will lower T doses. Have a good look around at other people’s regimes. I think there would be no issue going up to 0.75mg MWF or even 1mg MWF. If that works to bring down E2 to 22 in your blood work, then it should be fine.
200 seems to be about right then, especially since you have good labs and feel good. With that being said, the 100 is just a starting point. I’m at 120/wk myself. Since you have the AI, I don’t see why upping your dose would be an issue. You might move to an EOD schedule.
There are two main influences:
Increased rate of T–>E2: Increased fat would increase aromatase enzyme reaction sites. A zinc deficiency could increase T–>E2. But high doses of zinc will not solve the base problem. Too much copper can block some zinc absorption.
Decrease rate of E2 metabolism: This really points to the liver. Basic liver problems are an issue. Alcohol and drugs make things worse. Some drugs are really bad. Cimetidine is the OTC poster child for endocrine dysruption. There can be problems with things applied to skin or paint fumes etc. THC has a reputation. Things that would not bother some guys are a problem for others when their liver is not functioning normally. SSRI’s, anti fungals and others are well known. [may not apply to you, but these are general considerations]
Between the two factors above, increased creation and impaired clearance, a new balance is found.
Anastrozole only addresses creation, not clearance.
The basic dose adjustment rule would be.
New dose = 1.5mg/week * 59.1/22 = 4 mg/week. For 200mg T ester per week, that is double the expected dose. This might work, but the liver clearance side should not be ignored.
I suggest 3/4 or 1 mg three times per week and see how that goes. Technically, we cannot ignore that there can be lab errors. And if you can fix how your body is making/clearing E2 to some extent, you will have to reduce anastrozole to suit.
You T dose and T labs look good. [I would be looking for more AST/ALT liver lab work.]
You guys are all so kind and amazing…if anyone who responded is ever in Los Angeles please contact me so I can get you a meal and some coffee, and a lift if you like too at my gym.
Ok, this has always been an issue on my labs:
AST (sgot) 73 (range 0-40)
ALT (sgpt) 117 (range 0-44)
These things have been like this for YEARS…high iron, and high AST and ALT…maybe they started during my medical issues during the 3-4 years prior to getting on HRT…but they continue to be high…doc said we could maybe MRI or some other test scan of liver I forget to see whats up, and to maybe try donating blood every 6 weeks.
Ok, I might try 1mg adex M/W/F. How long to see or feel effects? And is there any telltale sign if going up to 1mg 3x week is too high? Like some side effect I should be pay attention to if its too much too soon?
I do not drink alcohol. I know that is not messing up my liver, unless my drinking in my youth trashed it…I quit drinking 16 years ago or so, minus the occasional glass of wine with dinner on a date now and then.
My doc said my Free T was good, but I didnt quite understand the explanation. I think he said it jumped from 20 two years ago to 35.4 now so that was a good sign? Is there a laymen explanation to why that is good and does it indicate improvements in my health?
And as far as those not believing me, it was a anti-aging thread within a website for roids, so it was bodybuilders questioning me as they do everyone on that site. People say how big they are or what their BF is, and everyone gets in a penis measuring contest of showing pictures etc. I am 38 years old, I am well beyond needing to prove anything to anyone, especially considering I was in horrific medical condition just 4 years ago. I am thankful as heck I am working out and feeling okay. And heck, if I could drop 20 pounds just for the sake of my back and knees I would!! Hoping changes in diet will help, I have been eating tons of processed food this past year in grad school, ugh, processed foods and way too many carbs. I need to be back on meat and veggies, its life altering difference in how I feel when I eat clean.
Any suggestions KSman on working on figuring out my liver value issues? They have been high for at least the 4 years since my medical retirement…although my health has improved and many many other values improved, they continue to come out high…
I am on so many anti oxidants and supplements supposed to cleanse the liver I know that is not the issue that I need more
Have you been tested for hepatitis? There are a lot of different tests for this.
Maybe all meds you were on have messed up the liver.
Try milk thistle… Make sure it’s made from the seeds and not the whole plant. Do not take it if it doesn’t say it’s made from the seeds.
Himalayan makes a good product called liver support. I have recently heard very good things about it.
I brought my E2 down a lot with diet and milk thistle alone but my enzymes are not as high as yours.
Have you done steroids a lot? And I mean the ones you swallow?
You need to address this issue ASAP and I would lower the T dose and move to more frequent injections.
[quote]iw84aces wrote:
Have you been tested for hepatitis? There are a lot of different tests for this.
Maybe all meds you were on have messed up the liver.
Try milk thistle… Make sure it’s made from the seeds and not the whole plant. Do not take it if it doesn’t say it’s made from the seeds.
Himalayan makes a good product called liver support. I have recently heard very good things about it.
I brought my E2 down a lot with diet and milk thistle alone but my enzymes are not as high as yours.
Have you done steroids a lot? And I mean the ones you swallow?
You need to address this issue ASAP and I would lower the T dose and move to more frequent injections.
You could start with a liver ultrasound and maybe it’s not the best test but its cheaper them an MRI and may tell you something. It did for me.
If you decide on this, make sure you test first thing in the morning as we fill with gas as the day goes on and ultrasounds are hard enough to read.
You need your liver bro and you need it healthy, I would put this on the top of my priority list and work towards some sort of recovery. I really think you need to be tested for hepatitis also.
Lots of the guys that do orals run a product called cycle support - red yeast rice, milk thistle, etc. It tastes pretty nasty based on the reviews, but it might be something to look at to help your liver.
EDIT: As far as noticing the effects from your adex, you’ll know it when you get too low. ED, joint pain, etc. It genreally only takes a few days IME for E levels to change.
Switched to 1mg EOD of adex, do not feel bad at all so maybe I needed it higher dose and me estrogen is getting under control
As for liver, yea another doc who I do vitamin IVs with called yesterday after seeing and was worried. My iron is always high, so was hemocrit and hemoglobin but we all suspect that is from T therapy and I need to start donating blood every 6 weeks to keep that stuff in better check.
The one doc said something about a scan of some sort of my liver, I am going to contact him and ask about it.
No steroid use, no orals. I wish haah. Id love to try a cycle for fun and as an experiment, but I am already big enough and do not know where to go to get stuff from the dark side.
I am on many supplements that would be considered liver cleansers
Oh, I do my T injections M-W-F and have been doing them SubQ…why would lowering the dose of this help the liver?
Wouldn’t help the liver…
Frequent injections with less T would help E2
As a rule of thumb E follows T so the more T you inject at once the more estrogen you would have also… You T level isn’t that high though and you are a bigger guy so who knows bro. It’s really hard sometimes to get dialled in but I’m sure you will get there.
Also I didn’t see this question earlier about adex.
You can take a pill and desolve it in a small amount of vodka and then urs a dropper with Ml to devise the doses.
Or a compounding pharmacy can make it liquid form for you