Abraham Lincoln

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Lincono,

Agreed.

Not to hijack my own thread, BUT let’s hear some thoughts on Abraham Lincoln.

Love to hear what the liberals think about pox’s pal, obama, and his recent comments.

Oh, with the “mulitple personality, antisocial, and splitting” kick, I’m wondering if e-hater is really tom cruise.

JeffR

Why yes, precious, you have found me out, I really am Tom Cruise. Can’t pull the wool over your eyes.

Lincono, great input Bravo! You have found a life long friend in jerrfy aka creamy aka shit aka precious. Now go kick some liberal helpings of liberal ass you right wing warrior!

Who is precious going to post under next? Hum… my guess would be creamy. Get ready for a bone slicing critique of A. my physique B. my intelligence or C. my brief career as a “Radio Operator”. Rah, rah, rah, jerffy!!![/quote]

Alright if you are really Tom Cruise who is better in the sack Katie Holmes or Nicole Kidman? Nicole looks she gets her freak on.

Zap,

The problem is that I’m not bashing America. You see, you fail to understand that talking about something which might be an issue is not bashing.

If I had wanted to bash America, and if I felt that way, I’d say something like “American’s are a bunch of ignorant uneducated dumbasses who think they own the world”. Now, I don’t feel that way, and I don’t believe it, but that would be America bashing.

I’m saying that the US focuses inward and that not much of international affairs is presented to the public, so they don’t know much about it.

That is pretty damned benign, and as far as I’m aware, it happens to be true. It may not be, so prove me wrong. However, don’t try to claim I’m anti-American or America bashing when I’m clearly not.

That is just plain wrong in several ways…

Katie and Nicole each have atractive and desirable qualities, although with Nicole being as short as I am, I felt like I was with an Amazon women, you know had to strap on the climbing gear. Oh, what fun climbs those were.

But, for sheer fire factor that fiery latina Penelope Cruz nearly did me in. Unfortunately, that was also the reason for our breakup that hot latin temper.

Had to get me a nice home baked girl hence Katie Holmes.

Oh, don’t worry there will be others… Katie’s just the flavor of the week.

And, oh yeah, in the spririt of the thread, I may play Lincoln in an upcoming movie, but I am going to have to wear platform shoes.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Lincono,

Agreed.

Not to hijack my own thread, BUT let’s hear some thoughts on Abraham Lincoln.

Love to hear what the liberals think about pox’s pal, obama, and his recent comments.

Oh, with the “mulitple personality, antisocial, and splitting” kick, I’m wondering if e-hater is really tom cruise.

JeffR[/quote]

I definitely disagree with Obama. I don’t live in his state but I wrote him an e-mail that voiced my displeasure with his bashing of Lincoln.

I am sure it will fall on deaf ears. The fact that I am not African-American probably bars me from having an opinion in Obama’s world.

vroom does have a point regarding international news.

Besides the Halloway gal what international news have we seen in the MSM?

Marmadogg wrote:

"I definitely disagree with Obama. I don’t live in his state but I wrote him an e-mail that voiced my displeasure with his bashing of Lincoln.

I am sure it will fall on deaf ears. The fact that I am not African-American probably bars me from having an opinion in Obama’s world."

I appreciate that response and taking action.

Do you have any idea why an Illinois Senator (especially with higher political aspirations) would make that sort of comment? Throw in the fact that he has African ancestory, and it becomes even more puzzling.

Not only is it silly on a personal level, but politically I am at a loss to understand it.

Again, I’m impressed that you took the intiative to voice your displeasure. I cannot imagine what motivated his commentary.

JeffR

e/tomcruise,

Why in the hell did you get rid of Nicole?!? That is one hell of a woman. It had to be fun with a larger woman!!!

Cruz is a little hottie, but seems much more fragile.

Holmes is just a little kid.

I’m sorry I squirted you.

I feel bad.

You do have the nose to play Lincoln. Add a cute little wart, a foot of height, the ability to actually grow a beard, 125 more IQ points, Marfan’s and it’s you!!!

JeffR

[quote]vroom wrote:
I’m sorry, was there a fact somewhere in this whiny pissing post of yours?

Hahahaha. Nice. Lincono, whiny pissing posts, like yours, obviously have nothing to do with left vs right. Thanks for proving that issue…

Besides, the fact nobody is talking about the Lincoln issue would mean the thread is basically dead. What does it matter now? Come up with something worthy of discussion yourself or stop bitching about the fact there is no worthy discussion.[/quote]

It’s interesting to note that the first response to this post was not “worthy of discussion”, but simple baiting by someone with juvenile debating skills. I do believe Lincoln was probably one of our greatest leaders during one of our most difficult times. If you disagree, please explain yourself instead of attacking the person posting. It seems that it’s always the same type who is bashing instead of educating, which is probably the best they can do.

Lincono,

Jerffy tends to be a rah rah cheerleader and he’s done so for eons. Unfortunately, his inability to form a political thought without resorting to such nonsense leads some of us, okay – myself at least, to discount him from the notion of serious conversation.

However, if you’d like to try, please disagree with his assessment of the Bush team on some issue and see for yourself how it turns out.

As for Lincoln, I don’t have much to say on the matter.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:

"I definitely disagree with Obama. I don’t live in his state but I wrote him an e-mail that voiced my displeasure with his bashing of Lincoln.

I am sure it will fall on deaf ears. The fact that I am not African-American probably bars me from having an opinion in Obama’s world."

I appreciate that response and taking action.

Do you have any idea why an Illinois Senator (especially with higher political aspirations) would make that sort of comment? Throw in the fact that he has African ancestory, and it becomes even more puzzling.

Not only is it silly on a personal level, but politically I am at a loss to understand it.

Again, I’m impressed that you took the intiative to voice your displeasure. I cannot imagine what motivated his commentary.

JeffR

[/quote]

Obma is an over rated liberal who has high aspirations, but a very low ability to achieve them!

[quote]vroom wrote:
Lincono,

Jerffy tends to be a rah rah cheerleader and he’s done so for eons. Unfortunately, his inability to form a political thought without resorting to such nonsense leads some of us, okay – myself at least, to discount him from the notion of serious conversation.

However, if you’d like to try, please disagree with his assessment of the Bush team on some issue and see for yourself how it turns out.

As for Lincoln, I don’t have much to say on the matter. [/quote]

Fair enough. I tend to look at politics from an independent position, and I believe Lincoln was similar in his viewpoint; in other words, pragmatic. This world is basically black and white and the people who obfuscate the truth tend to try to hide their true agenda. Lincoln was a man that did what he had to do to preserve the country and without his decisive action, we might still be divided, especiallly if individuals like John Kerry and Bill Clinton were President at that time. After 140 years, history has proven that Lincoln was a true leader, while the socialists mentioned above thought their agenda was more important than the United States, and in 150 years the truth about them will be better understood.
As far as Bush, I believe he is trying to fight this war like Nixon fought Vietnam; Nixon should have bombed Hanoi back to the stone-age and Bush should have done the same to certain parts of Iraq. This is what separates true leaders like Lincoln from the rest of the pack, if you are going to fight, go for the jugular. This is the main reason we have lost some of our finest soldiers to this fight.

djohns wrote:

“The states where set up as sovereign states by the constitution, which meant they had the right to seperate from the union. The constitution does not set as a responsibility for the president to preserve the union. Protect it, yes, but not preserve it.”

My apologies. I wanted to think about this and give it it’s due attention.

First of all, I reviewed the Constitution. The word “sovereign” actually never appears.

Second,

Let’s let the man do his own speaking.

Abraham Lincoln
First Inaugural Address
Monday, March 4, 1861

Fellow-Citizens of the United States:

“That the maintenance inviolate of the rights of the States, and especially the right of each State to order and control its own domestic institutions according to its own judgment exclusively, is essential to that balance of power on which the perfection and endurance of our political fabric depend; and we denounce the lawless invasion by armed force of the soil of any State or Territory, no matter what pretext, as among the gravest of crimes.”

I now reiterate these sentiments, and in doing so I only press upon the public attention the most conclusive evidence of which the case is susceptible that the property, peace, and security of no section are to be in any wise endangered by the now incoming Administration. I add, too, that all the protection which, consistently with the Constitution and the laws, can be given will be cheerfully given to all the States when lawfully demanded, for whatever cause?as cheerfully to one section as to another.
I hold that in contemplation of universal law and of the Constitution the Union of these States is perpetual. Perpetuity is implied, if not expressed, in the fundamental law of all national governments. It is safe to assert that no government proper ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination. Continue to execute all the express provisions of our National Constitution, and the Union will endure forever, it being impossible to destroy it except by some action not provided for in the instrument itself.

Again: If the United States be not a government proper, but an association of States in the nature of contract merely, can it, as a contract, be peaceably unmade by less than all the parties who made it? One party to a contract may violate it?break it, so to speak?but does it not require all to lawfully rescind it?

Descending from these general principles, we find the proposition that in legal contemplation the Union is perpetual confirmed by the history of the Union itself. The Union is much older than the Constitution. It was formed, in fact, by the Articles of Association in 1774. It was matured and continued by the Declaration of Independence in 1776. It was further matured, and the faith of all the then thirteen States expressly plighted and engaged that it should be perpetual, by the Articles of Confederation in 1778. And finally, in 1787, one of the declared objects for ordaining and establishing the Constitution was “to form a more perfect Union.” 14

But if destruction of the Union by one or by a part only of the States be lawfully possible, the Union is less perfect than before the Constitution, having lost the vital element of perpetuity.

It follows from these views that no State upon its own mere motion can lawfully get out of the Union; that resolves and ordinances to that effect are legally void, and that acts of violence within any State or States against the authority of the United States are insurrectionary or revolutionary, according to circumstances.

I therefore consider that in view of the Constitution and the laws the Union is unbroken, and to the extent of my ability, I shall take care, as the Constitution itself expressly enjoins upon me, that the laws of the Union be faithfully executed in all the States. Doing this I deem to be only a simple duty on my part, and I shall perform it so far as practicable unless my rightful masters, the American people, shall withhold the requisite means or in some authoritative manner direct the contrary. I trust this will not be regarded as a menace, but only as the declared purpose of the Union that it will constitutionally defend and maintain itself.
All profess to be content in the Union if all constitutional rights can be maintained. Is it true, then, that any right plainly written in the Constitution has been denied? I think not. Happily, the human mind is so constituted that no party can reach to the audacity of doing this. Think, if you can, of a single instance in which a plainly written provision of the Constitution has ever been denied. If by the mere force of numbers a majority should deprive a minority of any clearly written constitutional right, it might in a moral point of view justify revolution; certainly would if such right were a vital one. But such is not our case. All the vital rights of minorities and of individuals are so plainly assured to them by affirmations and negations, guaranties and prohibitions, in the Constitution that controversies never arise concerning them. But no organic law can ever be framed with a provision specifically applicable to every question which may occur in practical administration. No foresight can anticipate nor any document of reasonable length contain express provisions for all possible questions.

From questions of this class spring all our constitutional controversies, and we divide upon them into majorities and minorities. If the minority will not acquiesce, the majority must, or the Government must cease. There is no other alternative, for continuing the Government is acquiescence on one side or the other. If a minority in such case will secede rather than acquiesce, they make a precedent which in turn will divide and ruin them, for a minority of their own will secede from them whenever a majority refuses to be controlled by such minority. For instance, why may not any portion of a new confederacy a year or two hence arbitrarily secede again, precisely as portions of the present Union now claim to secede from it? All who cherish disunion sentiments are now being educated to the exact temper of doing this.

Is there such perfect identity of interests among the States to compose a new union as to produce harmony only and prevent renewed secession?

Plainly the central idea of secession is the essence of anarchy. A majority held in restraint by constitutional checks and limitations, and always changing easily with deliberate changes of popular opinions and sentiments, is the only true sovereign of a free people. Whoever rejects it does of necessity fly to anarchy or to despotism. Unanimity is impossible. The rule of a minority, as a permanent arrangement, is wholly inadmissible; so that, rejecting the majority principle, anarchy or despotism in some form is all that is left.

Physically speaking, we can not separate. We can not remove our respective sections from each other nor build an impassable wall between them. A husband and wife may be divorced and go out of the presence and beyond the reach of each other, but the different parts of our country can not do this. They can not but remain face to face, and intercourse, either amicable or hostile, must continue between them. Is it possible, then, to make that intercourse more advantageous or more satisfactory after separation than before? Can aliens make treaties easier than friends can make laws? Can treaties be more faithfully enforced between aliens than laws can among friends? Suppose you go to war, you can not fight always; and when, after much loss on both sides and no gain on either, you cease fighting, the identical old questions, as to terms of intercourse, are again upon you.

This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it. I can not be ignorant of the fact that many worthy and patriotic citizens are desirous of having the National Constitution amended. While I make no recommendation of amendments, I fully recognize the rightful authority of the people over the whole subject, to be exercised in either of the modes prescribed in the instrument itself; and I should, under existing circumstances, favor rather than oppose a fair opportunity being afforded the people to act upon it. I will venture to add that to me the convention mode seems preferable, in that it allows amendments to originate with the people themselves, instead of only permitting them to take or reject propositions originated by others, not especially chosen for the purpose, and which might not be precisely such as they would wish to either accept or refuse. I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution?which amendment, however, I have not seen?has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service. To avoid misconstruction of what I have said, I depart from my purpose not to speak of particular amendments so far as to say that, holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable."

That is obviously more eloquent a defense of the national Union than anyone else could hope to make.

JeffR

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Obma is an over rated liberal who has high aspirations, but a very low ability to achieve them![/quote]

Don’t under estimate Obama.

He will surprise you.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Obma is an over rated liberal who has high aspirations, but a very low ability to achieve them!

Don’t under estimate Obama.

He will surprise you.

[/quote]

He already has! After all the hype I expected someone who would actually play it smart. Instead he is coming off like the great liberal emancipatior (I had to use that word in this thread).

That will not play well nationally. Basically, he’s just another black liberal ala Jackson, Sharpton bla bla bla…

Mental Illness? Hmmmm… That’s definitely new and original. Splitting? So if someone says to you (and this is just an example):
(1) You are an asshole.
(2) Great abs, man!
then you are ill for picking out the first statement and being pissed. That’s a Crock (with a capital C)!

Look, when someone makes a broad statement that insults Americans, he deserves to be ripped. Sorry Professor X and Elk and company – I don’t accept your premises. Vroom can massage his insult with ‘words of kindness’ later but NOT BUYING IT!

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Mental Illness? Hmmmm… That’s definitely new and original. Splitting? So if someone says to you (and this is just an example):
(1) You are an asshole.
(2) Great abs, man!
then you are ill for picking out the first statement and being pissed. That’s a Crock (with a capital C)!

Look, when someone makes a broad statement that insults Americans, he deserves to be ripped. Sorry Professor X and Elk and company – I don’t accept your premises. Vroom can massage his insult with ‘words of kindness’ later but NOT BUYING IT![/quote]

What premise of mine do you not accept?

Just to understand why you skipped it, this was his next sentence:

Now, I know, this isn’t always true. However, when I lived there, for years, it was harder than hell to find any news that was of consequence unless it was about some American project or Olympic result.

I mean, if you are going to get pissed off about what someone types, why pick and choose what you quote in order to act as if he wasn’t specifically talking about the news and events of other countries?
[/quote]

Your premise is that I am acting deceitfully, that I ‘pick and choose’. This is a common but false attempt at Modus Tollens. Since I disagree with the author on this statement, then I am acting deceptively with his entire argument. I do not accept this premise. I ripped him because he made an insulting,derogatory remark within his post. That was what I found objectionable.