[quote]BackInAction wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I will say this: Pat has been EXTREMELY good about showing an unbiased argument in favor of a “uncaused cause”. Though we disagree on what the bible says about certain topics, at least for now, he has presented very nice arguments that make sense.
[/quote]
He definitely did a job in presenting it!
[quote]
I do have to ask, though, about what you meant with the following:
The thing is, I keep getting upset over some of the things I read in the Bible or the suffering I see in the world (including my own). [/quote]
The more I read into anything now (religion, philosophy, hell even medical procedures), the more I don’t believe them. I’ve been trying to read more Bible verses and discussions (one of my friends is trying to be a minister and posts daily youtube videos on faith). Honestly, it just makes me upset now. I’m not specifically saying one verse, but just the general message of “pray and you will receive” (maybe not today, but eventually). The reason it makes me upset is because of how many people pray and don’t receive. The world is full of suffering, and I haven’t witnessed one miracle to make me think otherwise. I really wish I did, but I never have.
One of my doctors told me to have faith. I wanted to hit him because one of the major reasons I’m in such shitty medical shape is the result of his negligence. I wish he did more research rather than praying. Piece of shit doctor.
[quote]
You also mentioned that you have trouble finding FAITH in any belief system. Here is what the Bible says about faith @ Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assured expectations of things hoped for. The evident demonstration of realities, though not yet beheld.
Faith has to be based on something demonstrated already. This will take time, but it will also require taking in accurate knowledge about past events and how they affect us today.[/quote]
Yeah, if it was supposed to be something demonstrated, then I definitely don’t have any faith. And I definitely don’t have assured expectations of anything anymore. I’m not even talking in religiousness or spiritual contexts anymore. I just don’t have faith in anything. And that is kinda depressing.
NOTE: Sorry for this post. I received worse medical news today and need to see another doctor. It just made me lose it a bit. Thanks for the response.[/quote]
Crap, that’s going to affect your lifting too. I am sorry to here that.
Well, look I get it because I am not a blind faith kind of guy. I studied philosophy for this reason. Philosophy teaches you have to think, how to break things down to their most basic elements. When something is at it simplest, it’s much easier to understand. Secondly, philosophy is at the core of every single field of study. That’s why people get PhD’s or “Doctor of Philosophy” in various fields.
Logic is like a sixth sense, a way to discover beyond the senses. For instance, the whole “Uncaused-cause” or “unmoved-mover” was originally discovered by a dude who had no exposure to monotheism, didn’t particularly care about religion and had nothing to prove. It was Aristotle. Over time if became an argument form because you can start at any point and come to the same conclusion. Further, you don’t even have to start with something physical, you’ll still get tot the same place.
Another example is more recent, Einstein discovered the existence of black holes with pure math. Math is basic logic. Something nobody has ever seen, heard of or even postulated Einstein discovered with logic…It’s a rather powerful tool and you can never get to good at it.
The reason I am a theist philosophically speaking is that it just makes a hell of a lot more sense. It is far more likely that everything came from something. The evidence of begotteness is present from the smallest sub atomic particles to super massive black holes, from the laws of physics, to the creativity of art, all has origin. There is not a single damn thing anywhere in the universe that didn’t come from something else. It cannot regress infinitely and in fact the universe we know about does not. Infinity as a solution has two big problems…infinity doesn’t actually solve anything, it’s as big a problem in philosophy as it is in quantum mechanics in that respect. Secondly, it’s circular. It’s here, because it’s here is not the right answer, that begs the question.
Atheists have to necessarily argue one of two things, that everything came from absolute nothingness. I am not talking a vacuum, I am talk a state where absolutely nothing exists, not a single particle, not a single law, theory or principal, I mean nothing.
Or they have to argue that cause and effect doesnâ??t really exist.
The problem with the prior is it makes no sense what so ever nothing+nothing=nothing.
The problem with the second, is that if you invalidate cause ans effect, you invalidate almost all science along with it. Science relies on it, and athiest use science all the time to prove their points. So they have to argue causes necessitate their resultant effects most of the time but not all the time, otherwise science becomes a waste of time and we can never move forward. The problem with that, is that there is not an example of either anywhere in the universe, no where, period.
Atheists have to argue deductively that something can come from nothing and/ or cause and effect really doesnâ??t exist with out the benefit of a single shred of evidence to back up their claimsâ?¦
It seems ironic that in many cases, the science that they use to prove there is no God actually does the opposite when you break down the science to it’s most basic elements. It makes the above claims seem even more impossible.
