[quote]ephrem wrote:
Morality research sheds light on the origins of religion
Perhaps this may help to explain the complex association between morality and religion. “It seems that in many cultures religious concepts and beliefs have become the standard way of conceptualizing moral intuitions. Although, as we discuss in our paper, this link is not a necessary one, many people have become so accustomed to using it, that criticism targeted at religion is experienced as a fundamental threat to our moral existence,” concludes Dr. Hauser.
He perhaps should have addressed what morality is and our understanding of it first. This is why empiricism breaks down at these levels. It can only measure, not explain.[/quote]
…then what is, according to you, morality?
[/quote]
An exact definition is tough to nail down, but in absence of time, this gives a pretty good over view.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Morality research sheds light on the origins of religion
Perhaps this may help to explain the complex association between morality and religion. “It seems that in many cultures religious concepts and beliefs have become the standard way of conceptualizing moral intuitions. Although, as we discuss in our paper, this link is not a necessary one, many people have become so accustomed to using it, that criticism targeted at religion is experienced as a fundamental threat to our moral existence,” concludes Dr. Hauser.
He perhaps should have addressed what morality is and our understanding of it first. This is why empiricism breaks down at these levels. It can only measure, not explain.[/quote]
…then what is, according to you, morality?
[/quote]
you are not following my question, where did those universal traits come from? Those ‘traits’ wouldn’t pass through thousands of generations, across countries and around the world. “Good traits” and even “bad” ones are a constant through time. Cultures might change their understanding of those traits. But the traits don’t change.
If you still want to challenge that point, we’ll try another route. Where do you think we “evolved” from? From apes? Well here is a little behavior for you to think about. Use the most ‘intelligent’ species of primate, the orangutan. You can teach them many complex and inticate things, even sign language. When talking about the future generations, those future generations are never taught from the previous ones and the knowledge is not passed on until a scientist takes the time and effort to teach them. Again the knowledge stops there until they are taught from a human. Knowledge like the use of tools is not passed on through genetics but through visual learning.
Now take the domestic dog. They can’t be taught complex languages, yet simple traits will be passed on. When a human points to an object the dog will soon learn that’s where they are supposed to direct their attention. That’s why some breeds of dogs make good hunters. Those traits are genetic. Almost all dogs posses the traits. Disagree with anything so far?
Now take a young newborn child. The mother/father will point to an object and the baby will direct their attention to the object and this will continue until they learn the skills of language. Now back to the orangutan, they will never learn this trait from the previous generations, they can never pass the simple trait of pointing to where they want the attention of the young to be directed. You really think we evolved? Dogs and humans can do something that primates can not. We are genetically closer to primates than to any dog. Why would dogs have the same traits as humans and yet NOT primates. Easy answer, we didn’t evolve from primates ; ) How else would you explain it?
Or you’ll say you don’t follow jajajaja Now I can tell the future!! j/k man : )
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i’m starting to repeat myself here. We all have traits that are universally considered beneficial to the survival of the tribe. Traits that damage the odds of the tribes survival are considered “bad” or “taboo”. IOW, they evolved over time when man started to congregate in larger numbers forming cities and agricultural societies…
[/quote]
Pick up the Blind Watchmaker and read it. It answers a lot of your questions.
You’re looking at a finishing product and assuming it came into existence just like that. It didn’t. It built up from TINY beginnings and was most probably passed down through generations as memes.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
you are not following my question, where did those universal traits come from? Those ‘traits’ wouldn’t pass through thousands of generations, across countries and around the world. “Good traits” and even “bad” ones are a constant through time. Cultures might change their understanding of those traits. But the traits don’t change.
If you still want to challenge that point, we’ll try another route. Where do you think we “evolved” from? From apes? Well here is a little behavior for you to think about. Use the most ‘intelligent’ species of primate, the orangutan. You can teach them many complex and inticate things, even sign language. When talking about the future generations, those future generations are never taught from the previous ones and the knowledge is not passed on until a scientist takes the time and effort to teach them. Again the knowledge stops there until they are taught from a human. Knowledge like the use of tools is not passed on through genetics but through visual learning.
Now take the domestic dog. They can’t be taught complex languages, yet simple traits will be passed on. When a human points to an object the dog will soon learn that’s where they are supposed to direct their attention. That’s why some breeds of dogs make good hunters. Those traits are genetic. Almost all dogs posses the traits. Disagree with anything so far?
Now take a young newborn child. The mother/father will point to an object and the baby will direct their attention to the object and this will continue until they learn the skills of language. Now back to the orangutan, they will never learn this trait from the previous generations, they can never pass the simple trait of pointing to where they want the attention of the young to be directed. You really think we evolved? Dogs and humans can do something that primates can not. We are genetically closer to primates than to any dog. Why would dogs have the same traits as humans and yet NOT primates. Easy answer, we didn’t evolve from primates ; ) How else would you explain it?
Or you’ll say you don’t follow jajajaja Now I can tell the future!! j/k man : )
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i’m starting to repeat myself here. We all have traits that are universally considered beneficial to the survival of the tribe. Traits that damage the odds of the tribes survival are considered “bad” or “taboo”. IOW, they evolved over time when man started to congregate in larger numbers forming cities and agricultural societies…
[/quote]
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…ooohhhboy. You’re right ofcourse, we didn’t evolve from apes. All these convoluted arguments leading upto to a false conclusion is called, “A Straw Man-Argument”. Look it up…
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Pick up the Blind Watchmaker and read it. It answers a lot of your questions.
You’re looking at a finishing product and assuming it came into existence just like that. It didn’t. It built up from TINY beginnings and was most probably passed down through generations as memes.[/quote]
A finished product either has a function or it doesn’t. If the finished product serves a purpose (i.e. just about everything in life), why is it so ludicrous to assume that “someone” made it that way? How many things in life, which serves a purpose, happens by accident?
“Oh course not, don’t be so silly, that ‘end product’ couldn’t possibly have been created…that’s just stupid! What examples in life do we have of such intricate, functional, end products which were made??? Of course, it MUST have evolved!”
Talk about dancing around the subject, using every shred of intelligence, grabbing at straws, and making up every reason possible, just so that it rules out a creator…
When will people realise that you don’t have to be simple minded to believe in something more powerful than us? “Someone” who used his intelligence to “put things together”?
…if there’s a personal need or reason to believe this, then that’s allright. When those beliefs are abused to gain power or to inflict terror, then it becomes another matter alltogether…
So where is it you believe humans evolved from? I just used apes because that’s the most logical place, in fact that’s the only argument I’ve ever heard. Nice side step though ; )
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…ooohhhboy. You’re right ofcourse, we didn’t evolve from apes. All these convoluted arguments leading upto to a false conclusion is called, “A Straw Man-Argument”. Look it up…
so what was the point in posting those two links? The first blog didn’t really have anything but 4 different arguments calling the original bad author a bad scientist. He didn’t give examples of his good science, just some other author bad science.
the second web sight just showed weird animals from around the world. Most are strange to American’s because we haven’t seen those animals before. I took a mammalogy class before, so the mammals were somewhat familiar to me : ) Still don’t see the point shrug
…if there’s a personal need or reason to believe this, then that’s allright. When those beliefs are abused to gain power or to inflict terror, then it becomes another matter alltogether…[/quote]
There have been times in my life where I’ve really wanted to believe this (that there was/is no creator).
It is not a case of wanting to believe it, it’s a conclusion I’ve come to without a doubt…and for me to try and believe otherwise, would result in not being true to myself.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
And pray tell, who created the creator?[/quote]
As soon as you tell me:
-where’s the start of a circle?
-does space have an end…and how big is space?
-what’s energy made of…and what “drives” that…and what drives that…?
-did time have a beginning?
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So where is it you believe humans evolved from? I just used apes because that’s the most logical place, in fact that’s the only argument I’ve ever heard. Nice side step though ; )
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…ooohhhboy. You’re right ofcourse, we didn’t evolve from apes. All these convoluted arguments leading upto to a false conclusion is called, “A Straw Man-Argument”. Look it up…
[/quote]
[/quote]
…i base my views on the overwhelming scientific evidence that life evolved from organic and chemical matter over the course of billions of years guided by random genetic mutation and subsequent [succesful] adaptation to the environment…
…we, humans, share a common ancestor with the great apes from which we evolved into our current form. If i recall correctly the orangutan evolved from an earlier ancestor, and we, the chimpsansees [and bonobos] and gorillas share the same ancestor…
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
so what was the point in posting those two links? The first blog didn’t really have anything but 4 different arguments calling the original bad author a bad scientist. He didn’t give examples of his good science, just some other author bad science.
the second web sight just showed weird animals from around the world. Most are strange to American’s because we haven’t seen those animals before. I took a mammalogy class before, so the mammals were somewhat familiar to me : ) Still don’t see the point shrug
…if there’s a personal need or reason to believe this, then that’s allright. When those beliefs are abused to gain power or to inflict terror, then it becomes another matter alltogether…[/quote]
There have been times in my life where I’ve really wanted to believe this (that there was/is no creator).
It is not a case of wanting to believe it, it’s a conclusion I’ve come to without a doubt…and for me to try and believe otherwise, would result in not being true to myself.[/quote]
…funnily enough it is the same for me, only in reverse. But i don’t believe there is no God; i simply have no beliefs in that regard…
[quote]Makavali wrote:
And pray tell, who created the creator?[/quote]
As soon as you tell me:
-where’s the start of a circle?
-does space have an end…and how big is space?
-what’s energy made of…and what “drives” that…and what drives that…?
-did time have a beginning?
etc etc etc
…then I’ll tell you where God came from…[/quote]
Ah, very interesting. You have now conclusively proved the Christian God is the one true God. Baal and Wotan and Thor were simply made up to comfort and/or control the masses. But Yahweh, well he’s different.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
And pray tell, who created the creator?[/quote]
As soon as you tell me:
-where’s the start of a circle?
-does space have an end…and how big is space?
-what’s energy made of…and what “drives” that…and what drives that…?
-did time have a beginning?
etc etc etc
…then I’ll tell you where God came from…[/quote]
Ah, very interesting. You have now conclusively proved the Christian God is the one true God. Baal and Wotan and Thor were simply made up to comfort and/or control the masses. But Yahweh, well he’s different.[/quote]
That was not even my point - you questioned whether there was a creator, and if so, who created that?
What you believe the “personality” of that creator is, is a different story…