…since i don’t believe a God made us in his image, or that we have to live our lifes according a set of rules brought forth from him, it really does depend on your definition of good…
…imo, we are highly evolved mammals, not separate from nature, who tried to make sense of life and reality by inventing a supernatural force. And yet we’re still governed by natural impulses that at it’s core are a-moral… [/quote]
Oh good another relativist.[/quote]
…well hellooo, haven’t you been paying attention all this time?!
[quote]pcoberley wrote:
I hope you are not referring to me; NO way on new age religion. As for Falwell and Robertson,… my point about how bad organized religion can be. But I think you give them too much credit, their own words send them back to the minority and the majority of Christians don’t agree with their world views.
Unfortunately in America the right to free speech brings the dumbest quotes to light, so be careful to not bash all because of one and before you go to sleep think back at all you said out loud and thank God you aren’t being taped.[/quote]
And yet when I do speak up about these kinds of people the ones to leap to their defense are invariably the Christians who claim to distance themselves from their ilk.
And Pat, when people like Ted “I’ll hire a male hooker” Haggard can claim to have been on the phone with the (ex)president of your damn country on a weekly basis, I’d say it’s moved a long way away from “minority”. If you can’t pick out what I mean by hate (i.e. gays), ignorance (i.e. evolution) or stupidity (Haiti and the Devils pact) then you must have some serious issues.[/quote]
It seems to me, your the one with the hate issues. There are stupid people every where as they make up the majority.
What your saying is that because some Christians are dumb and hateful, then all of them must be. This is non-sequitur. There are plenty of smart, loving and well behaved theists. And athiests certainly have no good behavior through out history. You cannot extrapolate the behavior of a couple of televangelists to how 2.1 billion people think, act and feel. It’s absurd…It’s like me saying all atheists are like Pol Pot. Are you like him?
[quote]pcoberley wrote:
I hope you are not referring to me; NO way on new age religion. As for Falwell and Robertson,… my point about how bad organized religion can be. But I think you give them too much credit, their own words send them back to the minority and the majority of Christians don’t agree with their world views.
Unfortunately in America the right to free speech brings the dumbest quotes to light, so be careful to not bash all because of one and before you go to sleep think back at all you said out loud and thank God you aren’t being taped.[/quote]
And yet when I do speak up about these kinds of people the ones to leap to their defense are invariably the Christians who claim to distance themselves from their ilk.
And Pat, when people like Ted “I’ll hire a male hooker” Haggard can claim to have been on the phone with the (ex)president of your damn country on a weekly basis, I’d say it’s moved a long way away from “minority”. If you can’t pick out what I mean by hate (i.e. gays), ignorance (i.e. evolution) or stupidity (Haiti and the Devils pact) then you must have some serious issues.[/quote]
It seems to me, your the one with the hate issues. There are stupid people every where as they make up the majority.
What your saying is that because some Christians are dumb and hateful, then all of them must be. This is non-sequitur. There are plenty of smart, loving and well behaved theists. And athiests certainly have no good behavior through out history. You cannot extrapolate the behavior of a couple of televangelists to how 2.1 billion people think, act and feel. It’s absurd…It’s like me saying all atheists are like Pol Pot. Are you like him?[/quote]
Oh I don’t HATE religious people. I fear what their resurgence in irrationality entails for a peaceful society. I’d type more, but I’m playing Mass Effect 2 and that shit is addictive.
Ahh, I love it. He is tackling all the issues that have plagued man from the beginning. The problem of evil, freewill, what is good and what is evil…They are all excellent propositions.
Each one a study on their own. Is there a particular one you’d like to take on? The are not enough GB’s for us to take them on simultaneously.
Oh I don’t HATE religious people. I fear what their resurgence in irrationality entails for a peaceful society. I’d type more, but I’m playing Mass Effect 2 and that shit is addictive.[/quote]
Then you fear them, which leads to hate. Didn’t you see Star Wars? Man is going to fight each other and do harm to each other, no matter what their ideology is…There will always be an excuse. People have fought over religion, yes. They’ve fought over women too, you wanna ban them?
I disagree with the whole “self-loathing” Christian perspective.[/quote]
There is no Christian self-loathing. Maybe I didn’t explain it well enough. There is an inherent desire to sin which we all have. As Christians we try to turn away from this sin and are successful sometimes. It’s not a matter of self-loathing it’s a matter of continuing to try to do better.
[/quote]
O sure there is. I don’t mean it like it’s a required thing, but there are Christians who belief they are pieces of shit by default and deserve to suffer. Very Puritanical type stuff. Fortunately, this isn’t as common as it used to be, but I still see if from time to time
.
Christianity is a religion based on that very concept, if you understand that then you’re further along than most. We are an imperfect group, or we wouldn’t need Christ.
God made you with free will, you can choose to do the wrong thing or you can choose to do the right thing. God didn’t make you to do either, it’s up to you.
Typo dude, sorry. It’s supposed to be “shouldn’t”
Feelings not thoughts. For instance, somebody breaking into your car and stealing your radio would piss you off. But if you were to catch them, you have the choice to do all kinds of things to him. But you shouldn’t kill 'em for it just because you feel like it.
To the people who don’t believe in God, where do you think the concept of being a “good person” came from? I can understand being inherently evil to a point, but why does the drive to do good come overpower the “evil personality”? Again, where do you think that drive came from?
Ahh, I love it. He is tackling all the issues that have plagued man from the beginning. The problem of evil, freewill, what is good and what is evil…They are all excellent propositions.
Each one a study on their own. Is there a particular one you’d like to take on? The are not enough GB’s for us to take them on simultaneously.[/quote]
…i will get back to you on this one pat, probably tomorrow…
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Not sure if this has been discussed before?
To the people who don’t believe in God, where do you think the concept of being a “good person” came from? I can understand being inherently evil to a point, but why does the drive to do good come overpower the “evil personality”? Again, where do you think that drive came from?[/quote]
…are you honestly telling us that, were it not for your beliefs, you’d be raping, murdering, stealing and lying all the time? Because if it is, i’m glad you’re not my neighbour!
Ahh, I love it. He is tackling all the issues that have plagued man from the beginning. The problem of evil, freewill, what is good and what is evil…They are all excellent propositions.
Each one a study on their own. Is there a particular one you’d like to take on? The are not enough GB’s for us to take them on simultaneously.[/quote]
…i will get back to you on this one pat, probably tomorrow…[/quote]
wow, been “away” for a few days and yet the debate rambles on …and will… because of our freedom… let’s rejoice and reflect on that…
As to atheists and the original reason I responded to this thread, a question ; Don’t you simply believe there is NO god? My confusion is in the video that starts this thread, the speaker is logical in confronting the caller about his “blind following” and I agree in that most New Age Christians can’t say their god is a god of judgement… all loving never to be separated from his flock if we simply believe… and therefore they can’t confront and speak up to (NOT “talk down to”) non-believers and also Christians that have stumbled/ or questioning their faith. Remember the Beattitudes? specifically, Matt 5:13, concerning salt. or even, Rev 3:16, being lukewarm… We are responsible to stand firm in our faith! As to Hell or eternal damnation I am not casting the judgement My God is, I can’t answer for your life only mine. But…here is my question to the speaker and all atheists, Are you (1)basing your non-belief in God on him being judgemental, cold-hearted, non-loving, etc.? Or (2)that there is no evidence tangible or otherwise of his existence. As to the first question,… basing existence on why something acts a certain way doesn’t discount it’s existence, does it!!! Secondly,. and quoting Billy Graham, " I have never seen the wind, and yet I feel and see its effects around me".
We all feel that we have worth and I heard many times the speaker discount God because he asserts he is as worthy or more moral… As humans we are more worthy than any other creation and yet we are not as worthy as God. That doesn’t make me loath my existence, it makes me strive to accept my place in his Kingdom. Think in terms of the lower species say a dog, Can a dog live it’s whole life content in only being fed and occassionally scratched or petted or does it spend it’s day loathing and full of self pity that it will never be anything more?.. BUT God HAS given us dominion over all creatures so we can spend our days loathing or angry or REJOICING and JOYFUL or confused or doubtful or “slave or free”… but also in His image!
Ahh, I love it. He is tackling all the issues that have plagued man from the beginning. The problem of evil, freewill, what is good and what is evil…They are all excellent propositions.
Each one a study on their own. Is there a particular one you’d like to take on? The are not enough GB’s for us to take them on simultaneously.[/quote]
…i will get back to you on this one pat, probably tomorrow…[/quote]
Word up…I am in no hurry.
[/quote]
…i must admit defeat pat, old skool english confuses me so i’ve only glanced at the text. The conclusions that are in italic however appear sound, but have imo one underlying [fatal] flaw; the first assumption: I. There is said to be a First Mover, who is called GOD, Maker of the Universe…
jajaja your not following my discussion : ) You agree we ALL have traits that are universally accepted as being ‘good?’ Where do you think those traits come from?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…are you honestly telling us that, were it not for your beliefs, you’d be raping, murdering, stealing and lying all the time? Because if it is, i’m glad you’re not my neighbour!
[/quote]
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
jajaja your not following my discussion : ) You agree we ALL have traits that are universally accepted as being ‘good?’ Where do you think those traits come from?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…are you honestly telling us that, were it not for your beliefs, you’d be raping, murdering, stealing and lying all the time? Because if it is, i’m glad you’re not my neighbour!
[/quote]
[/quote]
…i’m starting to repeat myself here. We all have traits that are universally considered beneficial to the survival of the tribe. Traits that damage the odds of the tribes survival are considered “bad” or “taboo”. IOW, they evolved over time when man started to congregate in larger numbers forming cities and agricultural societies…
Morality research sheds light on the origins of religion
Perhaps this may help to explain the complex association between morality and religion. “It seems that in many cultures religious concepts and beliefs have become the standard way of conceptualizing moral intuitions. Although, as we discuss in our paper, this link is not a necessary one, many people have become so accustomed to using it, that criticism targeted at religion is experienced as a fundamental threat to our moral existence,” concludes Dr. Hauser.
or it’s just as simple as an inner voice, a spirit, yea that’s the ticket a spirit, a holy spirit…something greater than all the the most brilliant minds put together…something beyond us. Something that has never had to evolve, a GOD. Here’s a thought spend a day, a week, a year reading the Bible with the same willingness to believe that it could be true.
Don’t read it as a novel. It amazes me that people will blindly follow the “wisdom” of a person who has PhD after their name. Assuming that that person never made an error in philosophy, or could even figure out how to make toast. But this is the way it has been since the beginning of time (bible time) so I’m not frustrated with you just amazed.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Morality research sheds light on the origins of religion
Perhaps this may help to explain the complex association between morality and religion. “It seems that in many cultures religious concepts and beliefs have become the standard way of conceptualizing moral intuitions. Although, as we discuss in our paper, this link is not a necessary one, many people have become so accustomed to using it, that criticism targeted at religion is experienced as a fundamental threat to our moral existence,” concludes Dr. Hauser.
He perhaps should have addressed what morality is and our understanding of it first. This is why empiricism breaks down at these levels. It can only measure, not explain.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Morality research sheds light on the origins of religion
Perhaps this may help to explain the complex association between morality and religion. “It seems that in many cultures religious concepts and beliefs have become the standard way of conceptualizing moral intuitions. Although, as we discuss in our paper, this link is not a necessary one, many people have become so accustomed to using it, that criticism targeted at religion is experienced as a fundamental threat to our moral existence,” concludes Dr. Hauser.
He perhaps should have addressed what morality is and our understanding of it first. This is why empiricism breaks down at these levels. It can only measure, not explain.[/quote]
[quote]pcoberley wrote:
or it’s just as simple as an inner voice, a spirit, yea that’s the ticket a spirit, a holy spirit…something greater than all the the most brilliant minds put together…something beyond us. Something that has never had to evolve, a GOD. Here’s a thought spend a day, a week, a year reading the Bible with the same willingness to believe that it could be true.
Don’t read it as a novel. It amazes me that people will blindly follow the “wisdom” of a person who has PhD after their name. Assuming that that person never made an error in philosophy, or could even figure out how to make toast. But this is the way it has been since the beginning of time (bible time) so I’m not frustrated with you just amazed. [/quote]
…explain to me why your religion is the one and only true religion, and not all the other religions, and even all the other branches of christianity combined, but yours and yours alone?