Abortion - No Matter What

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
For a baby? No. But we are talking about a fetus.
[/quote]

We can stop here I guess. They’re no point in continuing. I’m not going to argue for the next 12 pages on whether a fetus is a person or not. It’s one of those words we made up to excuse our actions. “Oh it’s okay to suck this thing out it’s just a fetus. It’s not even human.” That’s absurd to me.

[/quote]
That’s where the argument starts. I can have my opinion on what a fetus is but I cannot back it up with science or logic. It’s alive, obviously, but is it human? I can’t control other people based on what could be described as a hunch.

162

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Babie’s life vs. Mother’s freedom. When you boil it down that’s really the isse. All BS aside, I’m siding with the baby every single time. [/quote]

It is two lives. That is the issue…not just the kid’s life or the mom’s life…and I would personally say the one with a conscious mind has the responsibility to look out for herself first.[/quote]

It is not 2 lives. It is 1 life and 1’s freedom. Unless I’ve missed that woman are dying in child birth by the thousands.

Don’t agree. 9 months is nothing compared to an average life span of what 70 years. [/quote]

No, it is TWO LIVES. One who is conscious and one who is not and isn’t a fully developed human being yet.

That fully developed human should have the right to protect their own body if the means are available. You are talking about the entire course of someone’s life.

maybe that abortion means that mother with no education can now become a doctor and support all of her kids later.

Maybe having that kid would have resulted in two people on welfare instead of later on one in med school.[/quote]

It’s not her LIFE. She is not going to DIE if she carries to term. It’s her freedom for 9 months. It’s not even her freedom for crying out loud. It’s not like she’s locked in chains for 9 months, she can (in most cases) do everything she wants for those 9 months.

I’m sorry, but I seriously doubt MOST woman are an abortion away from becoming doctors. Two on welfare or 1 in law school AND ONE DEAD. You left that last part out. How about the possibility of both becoming doctors?

163

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Well when you put it that way it sounds awful, but I don’t see it as slavery. More like court ordered child support for both parents. [/quote]

That sounds like jail. I don’t see how the kid wins out in that scenario.[/quote]

How does the child win if it’s aborted?[/quote]

It doesn’t…just like it probably won’t win if you take away welfare and force that same mother to support that kid with no job and no father.

You made a suggestion that is basically jail…which means we still have to pay for that.

I am not happy about abortions and don’t plan on having one for my kid. That doesn’t mean I have to be against abortions because I am looking at society as whole and not just this one pint in time.[/quote]

I’ve said like 5 times now I would rather the baby be supported with my tax dollars than killed.

I’m confident abortion will be one of those things future generation will look back on and be disgusted in that fact that we condone such behavior.

164

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
It’s not her LIFE. She is not going to DIE if she carries to term.
[/quote]

That’s not always the case.

165

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

It’s not her LIFE. She is not going to DIE if she carries to term. It’s her freedom for 9 months. It’s not even her freedom for crying out loud. It’s not like she’s locked in chains for 9 months, she can (in most cases) do everything she wants for those 9 months.

I’m sorry, but I seriously doubt MOST woman are an abortion away from becoming doctors. Two on welfare or 1 in law school AND ONE DEAD. You left that last part out. How about the possibility of both becoming doctors? [/quote]

D you realize that science itself has changed the rules?

That condom isn’t natural.

That birth control pill isn’t natural.

You are preventing life every single time you nut in a woman but use a condom. That act alone is what makes the kid.

I can have my personal beliefs without forcing everyone else to abide by them…especially in a society like this one where people don’t care at all if that kid lives or dies two weeks after the birth.

We are either a society that is all in…and everyone gets support if they fall short, or you let people die.

That is where is stands…and those lives will be lost if welfare and all government programs are eliminated.

166

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

I’ve said like 5 times now I would rather the baby be supported with my tax dollars than killed.

[/quote]

Yeah, but the rest of the conservative crowd is NOT saying the same thing…and that is what we are discussing.

Millions of kids in this country were aborted last year. That means you need to be ready to support those same million kids.

I hope you are. If so, then all is good.

167

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I am strictly for people accepting responsibility for themselves. If you cant afford a child, don’t get pregnant. If you do get pregnant, accept responsibility for your actions. Like I said, if you cant handle that, there is a 100% guaranteed way to not get pregnant. If you get raped, go to the hospital and get your plan B to keep a pregnancy from occurring. Also there is always the option of putting the child up for adoption for the parents that cant afford to raise it. [/quote]

This isn’t reality.

What is reality is the guy getting drunk at a club and screwing a stripper who has a kid she decides not to get aborted so she ends up on welfare because daddy sells drugs and has a felony.

It is great to be for personal responsibility. I am for that too.

I am also for being a REALIST.

Condoms break and people have sex with no deep thought other than taking care of the immediate erection.

Those completely against abortion logically must be FOR taking care of these kids through government assistance…otherwise, why be against aborting them?

Sanctity of life seems to end at birth.[/quote]

So if someone gets drunk, drives, gets in an accident and is paralyzed, should we euthanize him? Just because you were drunk or just irresponsible doesn’t mean you should get a redo. Make the parents get out and get jobs, double jobs. Seeing others have to work an 80 hr week should be enough to deter some people. If you have one kid fine, you are eligible for welfare. When you have the second, you are eligible for two options have your ovaries removed and receive money for the two kids, or have all welfare revoked. Problem solved. A life is a life. What makes one life more valuable than the next?

I would far rather become more liberal with the death penalty for those convicted of murder, refuse treatment to meth cooks who get burned and the like, than to save money by putting unborn babies to death. And if you cut out welfare, while at the same time making child neglect penalties stiffer, people might start taking some responsibility because the government isn’t going to swoop in and save the day.

168

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:I can’t stop people from trying to kill their baby in their own house. All I can do is try and stop the “legal” killing of children. As oxymoroic as that sounds.

No it will probably go underground, but like I said, there’s not much I can do about that. [/quote]

If only we had some examples from history to wonder how it might be:

[quote]It was one of the late dictator’s cruelest commands. At first Romania’s birthrate nearly doubled. But poor nutrition and inadequate prenatal care endangered many pregnant women. The country’s infant-mortality rate soard to 83 deaths in every 1,000 births (against a Western European average of less than 10 per thousand). About one in 10 babies was born underweight; newborns weighing 1,500 grams (3 pounds, 5 ounces) were classified as miscarriages and denied treatment. Unwanted survivors often ended up in orphanages. “The law only forbade abortion,” says Dr. Alexander Floran Anca of Bucharest. “It did nothing to promote life.”

Ceausescu made mockery of family planning. He forbade sex education. Books on human sexuality and reproduction were classified as “state secrets,” to be used only as medical textbooks. With contraception banned, Romanians had to smuggle in condoms and birth-control pills. Though strictly illegal, abortions remained a widespread birth-control measure of last resort. Nationwide, Western sources estimate, 60 percent of all pregnancies ended in abortion or miscarriage.[/quote]

http://www.ceausescu.org/ceausescu_texts/overplanned_parenthood.htm[/quote]

How does this apply to us?

Birth control is subsidized. Sex education is standard curriculum.[/quote]

You’re reading the wrong parts.

Though not using birth control and not teaching sex ed are often stuff pro life Jesus freaks are big fans of they weren’t what I was wanting you to take home from that. [/quote]

If you’re taling about this part,

“The law only forbade abortion,” says Dr. Alexander Floran Anca of Bucharest. “It did nothing to promote life.”

Then ya, that’s not my goal. I’d rather improve life especially for the child that would otherwise be killed because they’re an inconvenience. That’s why, like I originally said, I’d rather my tax dollars go towards these kids rather than they be killed.

169

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
It’s not her LIFE. She is not going to DIE if she carries to term.
[/quote]

That’s not always the case. [/quote]

I know it’s not always the case.

170

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
You are saying the Felon can’t afford to have kids so his best option is an abortion. What if he (more like she) doesn’t want one, what then?[/quote]

Then she gets on welfare.[/quote]

Take her welfare and give it to the kid then. [/quote]

OK…I am sure he can just catch a bus to the store for food.[/quote]

Put the child in the custody of someone who will care for him/her and appropriate welfare accordingly.

171

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
You are saying the Felon can’t afford to have kids so his best option is an abortion. What if he (more like she) doesn’t want one, what then?[/quote]

Then she gets on welfare.[/quote]

Take her welfare and give it to the kid then. [/quote]

OK…I am sure he can just catch a bus to the store for food.[/quote]

Put the child in the custody of someone who will care for him/her and appropriate welfare accordingly. [/quote]

Then let her starve to death or work. Hunger is a powerful motivator and as you said, without the kid, she could go to med school.

172

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

I’ve said like 5 times now I would rather the baby be supported with my tax dollars than killed.

[/quote]

Yeah, but the rest of the conservative crowd is NOT saying the same thing…and that is what we are discussing.

Millions of kids in this country were aborted last year. That means you need to be ready to support those same million kids.

I hope you are. If so, then all is good.[/quote]

Like I said, you could cut literally thousands of other programs to support all those kids. Those millions, it’s actually less than 1MM, can be supported easily. Also half of that million can probably support those kids themselves.

173

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
You are saying the Felon can’t afford to have kids so his best option is an abortion. What if he (more like she) doesn’t want one, what then?[/quote]

Then she gets on welfare.[/quote]

Take her welfare and give it to the kid then. [/quote]

OK…I am sure he can just catch a bus to the store for food.[/quote]

Put the child in the custody of someone who will care for him/her and appropriate welfare accordingly. [/quote]

Then let her starve to death or work. Hunger is a powerful motivator and as you said, without the kid, she could go to med school.[/quote]

Exactly, it’s that unwanted pregnancy that’s holding her down…

174

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
You are saying the Felon can’t afford to have kids so his best option is an abortion. What if he (more like she) doesn’t want one, what then?[/quote]

Then she gets on welfare.[/quote]

Take her welfare and give it to the kid then. [/quote]

You sure it is the unwanted pregnancy or the dead beat guys she keeps bringing home.
Sorry, I will back out of this discussion.

OK…I am sure he can just catch a bus to the store for food.[/quote]

Put the child in the custody of someone who will care for him/her and appropriate welfare accordingly. [/quote]

Then let her starve to death or work. Hunger is a powerful motivator and as you said, without the kid, she could go to med school.[/quote]

Exactly, it’s that unwanted pregnancy that’s holding her down…[/quote]

175

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

It’s not her LIFE. She is not going to DIE if she carries to term. It’s her freedom for 9 months. It’s not even her freedom for crying out loud. It’s not like she’s locked in chains for 9 months, she can (in most cases) do everything she wants for those 9 months.

I’m sorry, but I seriously doubt MOST woman are an abortion away from becoming doctors. Two on welfare or 1 in law school AND ONE DEAD. You left that last part out. How about the possibility of both becoming doctors? [/quote]

D you realize that science itself has changed the rules?

That condom isn’t natural.

That birth control pill isn’t natural.

You are preventing life every single time you nut in a woman but use a condom. That act alone is what makes the kid.

I can have my personal beliefs without forcing everyone else to abide by them…especially in a society like this one where people don’t care at all if that kid lives or dies two weeks after the birth.

We are either a society that is all in…and everyone gets support if they fall short, or you let people die.

That is where is stands…and those lives will be lost if welfare and all government programs are eliminated.[/quote]

What???

I don’t know why you keep saying the same thing to me. I don’t want to end birth control or welfare. I don’t care if you nut in or on a chick. I want you (in a general sense) to take responsibility if you create a life.

You like to talk about reality. Reality check, All government programs will NEVER be eliminated.

176

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Dude, move to fucking Greenland for all I care. Just quit acting like taxes shouldn’t be paid or that they are ROBBING you when you drive to work on those streets and your kids go to those schools.[/quote]

Taxation is robbery. Owning streets is not a government responsibility. Streets, if desired, can exist without government interference. Read up on the Great Northern Railroad, which ran from Saint Paul, Minnesota to Seattle, Washington and was built without government aid. Schools can also exist without government.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LOL!

Nothing else to say.

To the people who are ok with thousands of people dying but are against “murder”…please save us the moral superiority act. [/quote]

How do you propose we criminalize death? We can’t. However, a forced death at the hand of another should be illegal if anything is.

177

[quote]Professor X wrote:
D you realize that science itself has changed the rules?

That condom isn’t natural.

That birth control pill isn’t natural.

You are preventing life every single time you nut in a woman but use a condom. That act alone is what makes the kid.

I can have my personal beliefs without forcing everyone else to abide by them…especially in a society like this one where people don’t care at all if that kid lives or dies two weeks after the birth.

We are either a society that is all in…and everyone gets support if they fall short, or you let people die.

That is where is stands…and those lives will be lost if welfare and all government programs are eliminated.[/quote]

Abortion is not preventing life. It is ending life. You are correct about science, though. There really is no excuse for an “unwanted” pregnancy now.

178

There is no inconsistency in saying that one has no right to murder an unborn child while saying that the government has no right to forcibly take money from some and give it to others.

There is an inconsistency in being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty.

179

[quote]NickViar wrote:

There is an inconsistency in being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty.[/quote]

How so? If you get the death penalty, did you not knowingly and willfully take a life? Did that unborn child do that?

180

[quote]NickViar wrote:
There is an inconsistency in being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty.[/quote]

This I don’t agree with.

The difference between the two is one is an innocet party and the other is guilty of robbing someone else of life and liberty. As a society we should protect the innocent and punish the guilty accordingly.