Abortion Debate?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
pat wrote:
…In the end it doesn’t matter whose it is, who is carrying it, how it got there, whether mom is a two-bit crack whore, etc. The bottom line is “it” is still a human being and killing it through abortion or any other means is killing a human person.

That, in common circles is known as murder. If you do not think it’s murder than express why.

Why do so many have so much trouble dealing with this distillation of the issue?[/quote]

Because it’s so very much easier to simply revolve your decision around “me”. Me me me me…me. It’s infinitely more difficult (and uncomfortable) to dig to the core issue and confront the fundamental debate because it raises the stakes and the consequences of being wrong.

It also causes introspection, which is something most people wish to avoid on any serious basis.

This is also a largely apolitical characterization of the debate, although it is the proper one. a) is it or is it not human? b) is it or is it not a ‘person’? c) what are the prerequisites for legal protection of a person? and does it meet these criteria?

[quote]pat wrote:

In the end it doesn’t matter whose it is, who is carrying it, how it got there, whether mom is a two-bit crack whore, etc. The bottom line is “it” is still a human being and killing it through abortion or any other means is killing a human person.

That, in common circles is known as murder. If you do not think it’s murder than express why.[/quote]

Because human life does not start when it’s a cluster of cells.

And for the record- I am against partial birth abortions and late term abortions, but I feel that the religious right, if they were given this bone, would not stop at just banning these. So I can’t support legislation against them at this time either.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

It also causes introspection, which is something most people wish to avoid on any serious basis.
[/quote]

Christ, talk about arrogance. You are no better or worse than 98 percent of the people out there. Get off your high horse.

[quote]
This is also a largely apolitical characterization of the debate, although it is the proper one. a) is it or is it not human? b) is it or is it not a ‘person’? c) what are the prerequisites for legal protection of a person? and does it meet these criteria?[/quote]

That is the question. And no, it is not a human until it develops a brain and some type of conciousness. That’s my opinion.

A clump of cells with no brain or consciousness has no right to life.

You are in a building with one exit. The building is on fire and you have to get out. You have enough time to save one and only one of the following: a 5 year old girl who is screaming, scared, and helpless; or a giant vat full of thousands of fertilized embryos. Which do you save?

I’ve never met a person who will honestly answer that they’d save the embryos in the vat. Everyone would save the little girl, because her one life is worth more than thousands of fertilized embryos. No matter how much you posture, you know that a one week old fertilized embryo is not a person.

Almost as absurd as right-wing Christianists who support government torture and warfare in foreign lands…after all, What Would Jesus Do.

[quote]Floortom wrote:
A clump of cells with no brain or consciousness has no right to life.

You are in a building with one exit. The building is on fire and you have to get out. You have enough time to save one and only one of the following: a 5 year old girl who is screaming, scared, and helpless; or a giant vat full of thousands of fertilized embryos. Which do you save?

I’ve never met a person who will honestly answer that they’d save the embryos in the vat. Everyone would save the little girl, because her one life is worth more than thousands of fertilized embryos. No matter how much you posture, you know that a one week old fertilized embryo is not a person.
[/quote]

I would save a 5 year old girl over a 30 year old man. I guess that means its ok to kill 30 year old men. Likewise, I would save a 5 year old girl over the 1000 giant panda’s that remain in the wild, so clearly there should be no issue with me going to China and exterminating them.

For the record, I don’t view a week old embryo as a person. I just think your example is crap.

[quote]Floortom wrote:

You are in a building with one exit. The building is on fire and you have to get out. You have enough time to save one and only one of the following: a 5 year old girl who is screaming, scared, and helpless; or a giant vat full of thousands of fertilized embryos. Which do you save?
[/quote]

That is a terrible analogy. I could drive a bus through the holes in this… and I agree with your point of view!

EDIT So RG beat me to it and said it better. Cool Avatar BTW.

[quote]Floortom wrote:
A clump of cells with no brain or consciousness has no right to life.
[/quote]

Scott Peterson killed his pregnant wife. Why was he tried for 2 murders if the fetus in his wife’s womb is not considered a person?

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Aragorn wrote:

It also causes introspection, which is something most people wish to avoid on any serious basis.

Christ, talk about arrogance. You are no better or worse than 98 percent of the people out there. Get off your high horse.
[/quote]

I said nothing about myself whatsoever. Why did you assume? It is simply my observation after talking with many people about many different subjects that most people prefer to keep debate ON ANY ISSUE on a superficial level and they resist digging deeper.

Maybe I’ve got a bad sample pool, but that is my experience when talking with people. It is my humble opinion that one reason that many people don’t like to deal with fundamental questions is that they don’t like where it leads them. This is a natural human tendency.

The reason I say fundamental questions cause introspection is because they require one to look at a situation without a filter of desire for a specific outcome. That can be hard to do for everyone. Anyone.

I don’t know where you’re getting that arrogant bent. I’ve tried to keep any individual ‘preaching’ or opining, if you will, out of this thread. I knew you were feisty but I thought you would at least understand what I was trying to say.

[quote]This is also a largely apolitical characterization of the debate, although it is the proper one. a) is it or is it not human? b) is it or is it not a ‘person’? c) what are the prerequisites for legal protection of a person? and does it meet these criteria?

That is the question. And no, it is not a human until it develops a brain and some type of conciousness. That’s my opinion. [/quote]

And that’s fine as long as you can support it in some way (I’m not asking for any). That’s what the interesting thing about this characterization of the issue is, and why I prefer it over the politicized crap that is slugged out.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Floortom wrote:
A clump of cells with no brain or consciousness has no right to life.

Scott Peterson killed his pregnant wife. Why was he tried for 2 murders if the fetus in his wife’s womb is not considered a person?[/quote]

Because emotional reasoning leads to shitty laws?

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
makkun wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
[…]It was my wife at the time you piece of shit. We also have 2 kids together. She faked a miscarriage. Then, after I filed for divorce, she decided to put it in my face that she aborted.

I’m sorry to read that. That is under any circumstances extremely cruel.

Makkun

Now you understand why we are not together…among other issues![/quote]

The pool, right? That was one of the deal-breakers, too, right?

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:

I would save a 5 year old girl over a 30 year old man. [/quote]

Would you save a 5 year old girl over 10,000 30 year old men? Would the decision at least be difficult to make and casue some introspection?

[quote] Likewise, I would save a 5 year old girl over the 1000 giant panda’s that remain in the wild, so clearly there should be no issue with me going to China and exterminating them.
[/quote]

The analogy is not meant to define “right” and “wrong” only to inspect the personhood of an embryo and its right to life. I can think aborting a 1 week old embryo is wrong (I do), without thinking it’s akin to murder. It’s clearly the taking a life, it’s also clearly not the murder of a person.

[quote]Floortom wrote:
A clump of cells with no brain or consciousness has no right to life.

You are in a building with one exit. The building is on fire and you have to get out. You have enough time to save one and only one of the following: a 5 year old girl who is screaming, scared, and helpless; or a giant vat full of thousands of fertilized embryos. Which do you save?

I’ve never met a person who will honestly answer that they’d save the embryos in the vat. Everyone would save the little girl, because her one life is worth more than thousands of fertilized embryos. No matter how much you posture, you know that a one week old fertilized embryo is not a person.

I on the other hand only agree with 4th trimester abortions for all convicted murders and child molesters, but if you ask any liberal I’m the inhumane one.

Almost as absurd as right-wing Christianists who support government torture and warfare in foreign lands…after all, What Would Jesus Do.

[/quote]

Again I state, you probably don’t have kids if this is your argument. The “clump of cells” has a heart beat and forming brain and body much sooner than people like you think.
Do you support abortion for innocent unborn babies?

If you do you must surely support the death penalty. As for what jesus would do, I surely think he would denounce abortion don’t you.
Keep in mind abortion was the main point here.

I brought up the death penalty just trying to point out the hypocracy of people who support abortion yet fought to save Tookies life.

[quote]Floortom wrote:
A clump of cells with no brain or consciousness has no right to life.

You are in a building with one exit. The building is on fire and you have to get out. You have enough time to save one and only one of the following: a 5 year old girl who is screaming, scared, and helpless; or a giant vat full of thousands of fertilized embryos. Which do you save?

I’ve never met a person who will honestly answer that they’d save the embryos in the vat. Everyone would save the little girl, because her one life is worth more than thousands of fertilized embryos.

No matter how much you posture, you know that a one week old fertilized embryo is not a person.

I on the other hand only agree with 4th trimester abortions for all convicted murders and child molesters, but if you ask any liberal I’m the inhumane one.

Almost as absurd as right-wing Christianists who support government torture and warfare in foreign lands…after all, What Would Jesus Do.

[/quote]

You are on the battlefield, 10 minutes until a bomb in an unknown area goes off and kills hundreds of innocent people. The only way to extract the where abouts is torture the terrorist in custody. What do you believe is right?

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Aragorn wrote:

It also causes introspection, which is something most people wish to avoid on any serious basis.

Christ, talk about arrogance. You are no better or worse than 98 percent of the people out there. Get off your high horse.

I said nothing about myself whatsoever. Why did you assume? It is simply my observation after talking with many people about many different subjects that most people prefer to keep debate ON ANY ISSUE on a superficial level and they resist digging deeper.

Maybe I’ve got a bad sample pool, but that is my experience when talking with people. It is my humble opinion that one reason that many people don’t like to deal with fundamental questions is that they don’t like where it leads them. This is a natural human tendency.

The reason I say fundamental questions cause introspection is because they require one to look at a situation without a filter of desire for a specific outcome. That can be hard to do for everyone. Anyone.

I don’t know where you’re getting that arrogant bent. I’ve tried to keep any individual ‘preaching’ or opining, if you will, out of this thread. I knew you were feisty but I thought you would at least understand what I was trying to say.
[/quote]

I just think it sounds very arrogant to say that most people “avoid introspection”.

That’s another sweeping generalization that can’t be proved, and though it sounds great for a political talking point, that doesn’t make it true.

[quote]

And that’s fine as long as you can support it in some way (I’m not asking for any). That’s what the interesting thing about this characterization of the issue is, and why I prefer it over the politicized crap that is slugged out. [/quote]

Yea, but it doesn’t sound as nice as standing on the corner with a sign wailing, “But it’s MURDER!!” like a lot of the people would.

Intelligent debate is not the basis of politics, it’s appealing to people’s emotions to make them do something rash and irresponsible.

Again, see Patriot Act, Iraq War, etc. There’s been a million examples of it in the last eight years.

[quote]snipeout wrote:

You are on the battlefield, 10 minutes until a bomb in an unknown area goes off and kills hundreds of innocent people. The only way to extract the where abouts is torture the terrorist in custody. What do you believe is right? [/quote]

Torturing the guy so you can get a fake confession/faulty information/etc. etc. out of him, obviously.

Ask your boy McCain about that, he knows exactly how much real information you give up when you’re tortured… you can probably find his “confession” online somewhere.

(one of things I truly like about McCain is that he refuses to budge on that torture issue).

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
snipeout wrote:

You are on the battlefield, 10 minutes until a bomb in an unknown area goes off and kills hundreds of innocent people. The only way to extract the where abouts is torture the terrorist in custody. What do you believe is right?

Torturing the guy so you can get a fake confession/faulty information/etc. etc. out of him, obviously.

Ask your boy McCain about that, he knows exactly how much real information you give up when you’re tortured… you can probably find his “confession” online somewhere.

(one of things I truly like about McCain is that he refuses to budge on that torture issue).[/quote]

It was an anology I used to rebut the 5 yr old girl and the 10,000 embryo argument. The point I was trying to make was, that the finallity of an abortion is lost on people just because a baby doesn’t have a face or voice. I know by reading your posts where you stand as far a partial birth and later term.

The problem with alot of people is that until you have a baby you think of a 12 week fetus as an it or a thing. When you are going through the pregnancy you see the it is a baby and has a heartbeat, a body, limbs and developing organs.

Granted this organism can not survive outside his or her mother it doesn’t make the baby any less of a human being. No infant or toddler can survive with out its parents, does that mean that if the parents can’t handle the child they can give up and let him die?

If convicted killers have the right to live out the rest of their life on death row on our tax dollars why didn’t that aborted baby have the right to be born and supported on our tax dollars?

I again will state that my biggest problem with abortion is that a vast majority of the time it is used as emergency contraception.

As far as the torture debate, I don’t think any soldier of any countries formally established army should have to fear any form of torture. As for terrorists with no regard for hundreds of thousands of innocent human lives waging a jihad, if lives can be saved at the expense of that terrorist, do what needs to be done.

[quote]snipeout wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
snipeout wrote:

You are on the battlefield, 10 minutes until a bomb in an unknown area goes off and kills hundreds of innocent people. The only way to extract the where abouts is torture the terrorist in custody. What do you believe is right?

Torturing the guy so you can get a fake confession/faulty information/etc. etc. out of him, obviously.

Ask your boy McCain about that, he knows exactly how much real information you give up when you’re tortured… you can probably find his “confession” online somewhere.

(one of things I truly like about McCain is that he refuses to budge on that torture issue).

It was an anology I used to rebut the 5 yr old girl and the 10,000 embryo argument. The point I was trying to make was, that the finallity of an abortion is lost on people just because a baby doesn’t have a face or voice. I know by reading your posts where you stand as far a partial birth and later term.

The problem with alot of people is that until you have a baby you think of a 12 week fetus as an it or a thing. When you are going through the pregnancy you see the it is a baby and has a heartbeat, a body, limbs and developing organs.

Granted this organism can not survive outside his or her mother it doesn’t make the baby any less of a human being. No infant or toddler can survive with out its parents, does that mean that if the parents can’t handle the child they can give up and let him die?

If convicted killers have the right to live out the rest of their life on death row on our tax dollars why didn’t that aborted baby have the right to be born and supported on our tax dollars?

I again will state that my biggest problem with abortion is that a vast majority of the time it is used as emergency contraception.

As far as the torture debate, I don’t think any soldier of any countries formally established army should have to fear any form of torture. As for terrorists with no regard for hundreds of thousands of innocent human lives waging a jihad, if lives can be saved at the expense of that terrorist, do what needs to be done.[/quote]

Firstly, … FightinIrish,…rainjack only scares women who give a shit about the ‘friends’ they have gathered on this site. I am none of the above. I’ve stated my position on abortion and the pill. I’m the ‘hurricane molotov’ that got their man panties so far in a twist. I’m the supposed combat boot wearing southpaw that stirred up Meeeester Push so bad he couldn’t shut the fuck up about me for a week.

Here it comes again, some dick who thinks because I’m not against abortion I support mercy on the criminals that fill our prisons. So incredibly off the mark, it’s just barely funny. The reaching convenience, the shortsightedness of stupid men.

I could turn around and say now, that the very same ‘life’ advocates who shout their shallow hearts out about abortion, don’t give a godamn about the poor and suffering results, of a deafeningly sad cycle of poverty and crime. They only care when they are INSIDE of an underprivelaged mother, and once they scream their wanting to this world, they do us the deed of killing them with suffocation of GREED. They care not for the finished product of humanity, only for a mass of cells that holds no promise, and it holds no promise because there is none to be had… and there is none to be had, because of the very people that fight for the lives of the doomed. They rely on the lives of the doomed…to put them further higher, on their fake thrones of stinking shit. There is no real love,…NONE.

In other words, for those who can’t see past metaphor, you care about aborted ‘children’, but you don’t care about them when they live and they suffer under your imposition, you don’t care when they end up in prison because they were born into poverty and saw no way out, and there was no way out because cunts like you made sure of it.

I am not for late term abortions. At some point you must draw a line.

Yeah, I didn’t get to finish all I had to say in that post because somebody here with me pushed submit before I was done. That would be my boyfriend. Not cool. I can’t just simply edit now because I’m moderated to hell and back. Good times. Whatever. Bring it.