Abortion Debate?

Makavali · October 10, 2008, 12:07am

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Makavali wrote:
pat wrote:
Making anything illegal doesn’t stop it. So should we legalize everything?

Making things illegal should improve a situation. I don’t personally see back alley abortions being an improvement on the current situation.

Seems too “out of sight, out of mind”.

yah… like marijuana right Mak? [/quote]

EXACTLY like Marijuana. Why make a drug that has never killed anyone illegal and then make Aspirin available over the counter? If you took 13 of those, it would be your last headache.

OctoberGirl · October 10, 2008, 12:13am

[quote]pushharder wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Christine wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The thing is I don’t see any of the men involved in this really facing any punishment for unplanned/unwanted pregnancy. A hit to the wallet is just not the same thing.

How about the group of young men/boys in Chicago who were trying to see how many “baby mamas” they could rack up?

How about they have to be castrated for unconscionable behavior?

it’s all a burden for the woman, so guys you can be a companion to a pregnancy, but you are not physically involved besides the input of the semen. It is the way it is.

I also think if men were the one’s that got pregnant a lot of mindsets regarding this issue would be different.

it effects everything your whole life

let’s see more burden on the men who should be liable for these pregnancies. Not just the wallet.

You’re gonna get crap for this, but it is so much easier to sit in judgement when it is a decision that you will never be confronted with making.

I know… I know… but it had to be pointed out.

the fact of the issue is that this will never be a level playing field. Sorry gentlemen, I am not being underhanded or hysterical, it is the physical truth of the matter. I am not saying it to put myself apart from you or be holding the golden key, it’s the way we were made.

and I also wanted to point out that I haven’t seen any posts relating to the punishment for men (and you’ve discussed punishment for women).

this whole thread seems to only be about punishing women

how about anyone who has adopted these unwanted children please post. I would like to hear from them.

Anyone who has read my views on responsibility should know where I stand on this issue.

I for one have not commented on punishment for women through the course of this debate. I will say, based on what I’ve read, that many women end up with a lifetime of self-punishment after an abortion(s). There is a delayed effect that often kicks in years if not decades later.

However, while all of this complicates the issue, the part that is indisputably simple and undeniable is that innocent human life is precious and valuable.

[/quote]

I don’t think anyone has said life isn’t valuable, but all lives and the quality of life are valuable.

there are no moral high grounds for that issue

we all agree on that one

Regular_Gonzalez · October 10, 2008, 12:16am

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
pat wrote:
If abortion were illegal, some people would still seek them but I promise it would not be anywhere near 1.2 million a year.

Actually, abortion is illegal in Brazil, and the number of annual abortions is conservatively estimated at 1.4 million.

"Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds.

The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions."
[/quote]

The statement that “Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence” is questionable at best.

To compare the abortion rates in Africa to Europe and then use that information to draw the conclusion that legality has no effect is completely ridiculous.

It would be like if Reggie Bush raced a fat couch potato in a 100m sprint, but Reggie had to tow a car behind him. If both men finished in the same time, it would not make a whole lot of sense to conclude that towing a car behind you has no effect on sprinting speed.

Ok, that analogy was a tad retarded, but I’m sure you understand the point I am making.

Also, I am not familiar with the specifics of the legal situation in Brazil, but you have to factor in that there are varying degrees of illegality, and this has an impact on how much of a deterrent factor there is.

In parts of Australia for example, Abortion is still technically illegal. This is despite the fact that abortion is readily available here and is actually funded by taxpayer’s money.

OctoberGirl · October 10, 2008, 12:17am

[quote]Makavali wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Makavali wrote:
pat wrote:
Making anything illegal doesn’t stop it. So should we legalize everything?

Making things illegal should improve a situation. I don’t personally see back alley abortions being an improvement on the current situation.

Seems too “out of sight, out of mind”.

yah… like marijuana right Mak?

EXACTLY like Marijuana. Why make a drug that has never killed anyone illegal and then make Aspirin available over the counter? If you took 13 of those, it would be your last headache.[/quote]

and you don’t see your hypocrisy, you missed it completely

pot is illegal, stop smoking it, that should solve the problem

stop the propaganda, follow the law you criminal

Makavali · October 10, 2008, 12:17am

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Very true.

The law the way it is written effectively eliminates the sperm donor from the decision making process.

However in another sense it is not true. There are many cases where the male is actively involved in the decision making process often to the detriment of the child’s life.

The man that urges his wife/gf to abort, for any reason but especially for the reason that he wants to escape the subsequent responsibility for that child is more reprehensible than the mother by far, in my opinion.[/quote]

It’s hard to argue against your POV if you keep saying shit I agree with. Stop it.

OctoberGirl · October 10, 2008, 12:22am

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Christine wrote:
…but it is so much easier to sit in judgement when it is a decision that you will never be confronted with making.

Very true.

The law the way it is written effectively eliminates the sperm donor from the decision making process.

However in another sense it is not true. There are many cases where the male is actively involved in the decision making process often to the detriment of the child’s life.

The man that urges his wife/gf to abort, for any reason but especially for the reason that he wants to escape the subsequent responsibility for that child is more reprehensible than the mother by far, in my opinion.[/quote]

Well not exactly true Push. You know I worked family law for a few years, I don’t know how deeply involved in the legal system regarding this issue you are.

Men can petition.

Men just do not have as big a physical hit or standing in this issue.

that is the biology, that is what it is

God did that, not the Courts (I mention God because I think you are a believer in God) this was his plan

Men can shoot and walk away

as soon as you can carry a child to term we will have an equal portion in pregnancy

I am not being flippant, again… this is the way it is

Makavali · October 10, 2008, 12:23am

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
and you don’t see your hypocrisy, you missed it completely

pot is illegal, stop smoking it, that should solve the problem

stop the propaganda, follow the law you criminal[/quote]

Really? Hypocrisy?

Why is pot illegal?

EDIT: I can’t help but feel a lot of what I say gets diluted (in meaning) over teh intrawebz.

Regular_Gonzalez · October 10, 2008, 12:23am

[quote]Christine wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The thing is I don’t see any of the men involved in this really facing any punishment for unplanned/unwanted pregnancy. A hit to the wallet is just not the same thing.

How about the group of young men/boys in Chicago who were trying to see how many “baby mamas” they could rack up?

How about they have to be castrated for unconscionable behavior?

it’s all a burden for the woman, so guys you can be a companion to a pregnancy, but you are not physically involved besides the input of the semen. It is the way it is.

I also think if men were the one’s that got pregnant a lot of mindsets regarding this issue would be different.

it effects everything your whole life

let’s see more burden on the men who should be liable for these pregnancies. Not just the wallet.

You’re gonna get crap for this, but it is so much easier to sit in judgement when it is a decision that you will never be confronted with making.
[/quote]

Only a sexist male pig would give someone crap for suggesting that young men/boys should have their genitals cut off for irresponsible sexual behavior.

I really hope here are no insensitive jerks like that posting on T-Nation.

OctoberGirl · October 10, 2008, 12:29am

[quote]Makavali wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
and you don’t see your hypocrisy, you missed it completely

pot is illegal, stop smoking it, that should solve the problem

stop the propaganda, follow the law you criminal

Really? Hypocrisy?

Why is pot illegal?[/quote]

Mak that isn’t the point, it is illegal, abortion isn’t.

stop being a criminal

wait… so making something illegal doesn’t stop them?

huh… but you said we should make abortion illegal to curb the abortions…

but then you are a criminal

Makavali · October 10, 2008, 4:31am

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
The thing is I don’t see any of the men involved in this really facing any punishment for unplanned/unwanted pregnancy. A hit to the wallet is just not the same thing.[/quote]

And yet it is a burden for men all the same. Maybe you don’t mean it to sound this way, but men make an emotional investment in their offspring too. It’s not just a hit to the wallet.

And please PLEASE refrain from calling a baby “punishment”.

[quote]How about the group of young men/boys in Chicago who were trying to see how many “baby mamas” they could rack up?

How about they have to be castrated for unconscionable behavior?[/quote]

Why not? Chemical castration ftw. That doesn’t sound like a bad idea. Quite frankly, if you aren’t going to support a child then you shouldn’t be having unprotected sex. While I’m pro-choice (in a sense), I certainly don’t think abortion is a form of contraception.

Don’t downplay the role of companionship during pregnancy. Although, if the guy bails, then he’s a piece of worthless shit.

See, my views on this are still a bit conflicted. On one hand, I don’t think it should be left entirely up to the women to decide whether or not to get an abortion and then say the guy has to pay child support, but on the other hand I think pressuring a woman into getting an abortion is one of the most vile things a man can do.

Probably, but it’s not that way and it won’t change anytime soon.

Yup.

A little off point, but I’m sure that’s probably the reason that so many children have the wrong birth father listed on their birth certificates. If you want to do this, then make paternity testing mandatory following birth.

I’m not saying women are by default cheating whores, but I KNOW someone who raised his daughter to age 16 before finding out he wasn’t the biological father. I’ve seen first hand what it does to people (mentally), and avoidance of that sort of thing would be oh so great.

By making it mandatory, then you remove the issue of having to ask (I mean, seriously, how can you ask a woman to get a paternity test and not get slapped?).

Christine · October 10, 2008, 12:31am

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Christine wrote:
…but it is so much easier to sit in judgement when it is a decision that you will never be confronted with making.

Very true.

The law the way it is written effectively eliminates the sperm donor from the decision making process.

However in another sense it is not true. There are many cases where the male is actively involved in the decision making process often to the detriment of the child’s life.

The man that urges his wife/gf to abort, for any reason but especially for the reason that he wants to escape the subsequent responsibility for that child is more reprehensible than the mother by far, in my opinion.[/quote]

Yes, I think that in many cases the guy is involved involved in the decision making process, but they will never, ever have to ultimatly decide.

Like OG said, you have the ability to shoot and walk away. Women don’t.

OctoberGirl · October 10, 2008, 12:32am

[quote]pushharder wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Christine wrote:
…but it is so much easier to sit in judgement when it is a decision that you will never be confronted with making.

Very true.

The law the way it is written effectively eliminates the sperm donor from the decision making process.

However in another sense it is not true. There are many cases where the male is actively involved in the decision making process often to the detriment of the child’s life.

The man that urges his wife/gf to abort, for any reason but especially for the reason that he wants to escape the subsequent responsibility for that child is more reprehensible than the mother by far, in my opinion.

Well not exactly true Push. You know I worked family law for a few years, I don’t know how deeply involved in the legal system regarding this issue you are.

Men can petition.

Men just do not have as big a physical hit or standing in this issue.

that is the biology, that is what it is

God did that, not the Courts (I mention God because I think you are a believer in God) this was his plan

Men can shoot and walk away

as soon as you can carry a child to term we will have an equal portion in pregnancy

I am not being flippant, again… this is the way it is

Say what you will and I don’t deny it but can guarantee you one thing. A 15 year old girl or a 45 year old woman can march into a San Diego Planned Parenthood clinic tomorrow morning and ask for and get an abortion and PP will not contact the sperm donor for his thoughts and opinions on the matter before they whip out the vacuum cleaner.

Tell me I’m wrong and I’ll know you’ve been dabblin’ in some of that there Cali Med Mary Jane.

[/quote]

sure they can, it’s legal

tell me about men/boys who carry a fetus to term or make the decision to end the pregnancy?

and how many unwanted children have you adopted?

OctoberGirl · October 10, 2008, 12:36am

[quote]Makavali wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
The thing is I don’t see any of the men involved in this really facing any punishment for unplanned/unwanted pregnancy. A hit to the wallet is just not the same thing.