Abortion Debate?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
381

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
pat wrote:
If abortion were illegal, some people would still seek them but I promise it would not be anywhere near 1.2 million a year.

Actually, abortion is illegal in Brazil, and the number of annual abortions is conservatively estimated at 1.4 million.

"Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds.

The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions."

“Where abortion is legal and permitted on broad grounds, it is generally safe, and where it is illegal in many circumstances, it is often unsafe. For example, in South Africa, the incidence of infection resulting from abortion decreased by 52% after the abortion law was liberalized in 1996.”

“Worldwide, 48% of all induced abortions are unsafe. However, in developed regions, nearly all abortions (92%) are safe, whereas in developing countries, more than half (55%) are unsafe.”

So, Pat, the question stands: Do you weep as bitterly for the eight million Chinese, two million Russian, and 1.5 million Vietnamese babies prevented every year, along with the 40 million of every other nationality? Or is your crusade confined to the wombs of women in the United States?

And if the former, will you attempt to use your aforementioned methods (law, gun, talking nicely, jumping around in a circle) in those countries as well?[/quote]

No, I only weep bitterly for white male babies, born in the south that are aborted.

What an idiotic question. Where you trying to make a point?

382

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
…but I’d say the chances of completely eliminating abortion rank right up there with completely eliminating terrorism, drugs, crime, obesity, and stupidity.

You’re right. It would be very difficult. In fact, impossible.

So we should probably abandon all efforts just like we have with terrorism, drugs, crime, obesity and stupidity?

Let’s face it, terrorism will never be completely eliminated no matter how abhorrent or illegal; so by your logic we should should make it legal and safe?[/quote]

If you arrest or kill terrorists, they cannot commit acts of terrorism. Do we arrest or kill young women of child bearing age so they cannot commit abortions? No, that’s just a very poor analogy so let’s leave it alone.

Making abortion illegal doesn’t stop abortion, it makes the abortions that occur worse. If the prohibition on drugs just made the drug trade more violent and profitable…but that’s a different discussion all together.

384

[quote]pushharder wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
You all realize, don’t you, that I can’t actually end abortion? No matter how many times anyone insists in this thread that that’s the only consideration. So there’s probably time to think about the future of any fetuses impacted by a change in the law.

What’s funny is that I’m not even trying to convince any of you to change the way you think. I’m asking you to tell me how it could work, to reassure me that it won’t be a nightmare I’ll have to clean up in my capacity as a social worker, that you’re willing to stand behind your belief in the sanctity of human life.

But instead you’re snarling at me (the general you) that I’m a murderer and that these children should somehow practice responsibility (because some of them would be 35 yrs. old now?). It’s like your angry sound bites are getting all mixed up.

Since when does repeating oneself constitute a debate?

This may sound snide but is not intended to be. In a non-snarling manner…you can’t worry as much about your “nightmare…as a social worker” and place it as a priority above the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that that child possesses.

You’re getting the cart before the horse. You DO the right thing FIRST and then you make the best of the situation.

[/quote]

Word.

385

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
…but I’d say the chances of completely eliminating abortion rank right up there with completely eliminating terrorism, drugs, crime, obesity, and stupidity.

You’re right. It would be very difficult. In fact, impossible.

So we should probably abandon all efforts just like we have with terrorism, drugs, crime, obesity and stupidity?

Let’s face it, terrorism will never be completely eliminated no matter how abhorrent or illegal; so by your logic we should should make it legal and safe?[/quote]

Don’t forget rape! We need to make that safe and legal as well since people do it anyway.

386

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:

Making abortion illegal doesn’t stop abortion, it makes the abortions that occur worse. If the prohibition on drugs just made the drug trade more violent and profitable…but that’s a different discussion all together.

[/quote]

Making anything illegal doesn’t stop it. So should we legalize everything?

387

[quote]pat wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:

Making abortion illegal doesn’t stop abortion, it makes the abortions that occur worse. If the prohibition on drugs just made the drug trade more violent and profitable…but that’s a different discussion all together.

Making anything illegal doesn’t stop it. So should we legalize everything?[/quote]

If making drugs illegal drastically reduced the violence, number of addicts and overall damage that they do to society, then they should be illegal. But, if making them illegal makes the aformentioned problems worse then it is wrong thing to do.

Edit: illiteracy

388

[quote]pat wrote:
What an idiotic question. Where you trying to make a point?[/quote]

No, I was asking a question, which you failed to answer. Allow me to rephrase.

Do you advocate the end of abortion in all countries, and if so, how do propose to bring this about?

389

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I didn’t originate the terrorism analogy. Varq did.

And you’re right, it’s not a good one.[/quote]

I wasn’t trying to imply that abortion and terrorism were analogous; I was just mentioning two controversial social issues that have an equivalent chance of being “solved” within any of our lifetimes.

But of course you realized that.

391

[quote]pat wrote:
Making anything illegal doesn’t stop it. So should we legalize everything?[/quote]

Making things illegal should improve a situation. I don’t personally see back alley abortions being an improvement on the current situation.

Seems too “out of sight, out of mind”.

392

[quote]Makavali wrote:
pat wrote:
Hey, if some cannot figure out that shoving a piece sharp metal is their pussy is a bad idea, I got no sympathies. Especially, when what they were attempting to do was to kill their own child. Fuck 'em.

So you support banning abortion, and yet you’re OK with the coat hanger method?

Hm…[/quote]

Can I get an answer here?

394

[quote]pushharder wrote:

I am correct in saying that despite all of the above it is still wrong because it is the willful taking of an innocent (the most innocent) human life.

So maybe I am the salmon swimming upstream and facing concrete dams and the treble hooks of fishermen but that doesn’t mean I’m going to turn around and head back to the ocean. Some things ya just gotta do.[/quote]

Well, as I said to Pat, more power to you.

I’ll never tell you that you’re swimming up the wrong river. Just don’t judge me too harshly for not making the same swim. I’ve got my own rivers to traverse.

395

[quote]pushharder wrote:
One interesting little rabbit trail. I’ve noticed that those who think abortion should remain legal tend to be people whose moms chose not to exercise that right.[/quote]

There aren’t many around who’s moms did choose to exercise that right for obvious reasons. There are a few, and their testimony is very moving. And I’m sure you could find that testimony somewhere on the web to cut and paste here. But speaking for myself it changes nothing.

396

[quote]Makavali wrote:
pat wrote:
Making anything illegal doesn’t stop it. So should we legalize everything?

Making things illegal should improve a situation. I don’t personally see back alley abortions being an improvement on the current situation.

Seems too “out of sight, out of mind”.[/quote]

yah… like marijuana right Mak?

397

The thing is I don’t see any of the men involved in this really facing any punishment for unplanned/unwanted pregnancy. A hit to the wallet is just not the same thing.

How about the group of young men/boys in Chicago who were trying to see how many “baby mamas” they could rack up?

How about they have to be castrated for unconscionable behavior?

it’s all a burden for the woman, so guys you can be a companion to a pregnancy, but you are not physically involved besides the input of the semen. It is the way it is.

I also think if men were the one’s that got pregnant a lot of mindsets regarding this issue would be different.

it effects everything your whole life

let’s see more burden on the men who should be liable for these pregnancies. Not just the wallet.

398

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

The thing is I don’t see any of the men involved in this really facing any punishment for unplanned/unwanted pregnancy. A hit to the wallet is just not the same thing.

How about the group of young men/boys in Chicago who were trying to see how many “baby mamas” they could rack up?

How about they have to be castrated for unconscionable behavior?

it’s all a burden for the woman, so guys you can be a companion to a pregnancy, but you are not physically involved besides the input of the semen. It is the way it is.

I also think if men were the one’s that got pregnant a lot of mindsets regarding this issue would be different.

it effects everything your whole life

let’s see more burden on the men who should be liable for these pregnancies. Not just the wallet.

[/quote]

You’re gonna get crap for this, but it is so much easier to sit in judgement when it is a decision that you will never be confronted with making.

399

[quote]Christine wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

The thing is I don’t see any of the men involved in this really facing any punishment for unplanned/unwanted pregnancy. A hit to the wallet is just not the same thing.

How about the group of young men/boys in Chicago who were trying to see how many “baby mamas” they could rack up?

How about they have to be castrated for unconscionable behavior?

it’s all a burden for the woman, so guys you can be a companion to a pregnancy, but you are not physically involved besides the input of the semen. It is the way it is.

I also think if men were the one’s that got pregnant a lot of mindsets regarding this issue would be different.

it effects everything your whole life

let’s see more burden on the men who should be liable for these pregnancies. Not just the wallet.

You’re gonna get crap for this, but it is so much easier to sit in judgement when it is a decision that you will never be confronted with making.
[/quote]

I know… I know… but it had to be pointed out.

the fact of the issue is that this will never be a level playing field. Sorry gentlemen, I am not being underhanded or hysterical, it is the physical truth of the matter. I am not saying it to put myself apart from you or be holding the golden key, it’s the way we were made.

and I also wanted to point out that I haven’t seen any posts relating to the punishment for men (and you’ve discussed punishment for women).

this whole thread seems to only be about punishing women

how about anyone who has adopted these unwanted children please post. I would like to hear from them.