a splinter from Mufasa's

Speaking as a european bloke, I’d like to say how impressed I am at the amount of american Tmag readers who’ve just (patriotically speaking) been very self depricating, and although there are some exceptions… (eg: Dustin to Big J 2002-08-12 00:53:03) …a significant number of you seem to be nothing like the stereotype of an archtypical american citizen!
I would like to pose a question: It seems to me that to truly have enough ‘goodness’ in you to be responsible enough to control any weapon of mass destruction for the pupose of “policing the world” - from a grenade, to the media, to a nuclear bomb - a person must be completely objective (so no doubt can be aired as to the reason for their decision), good and kind, and rational.

Is President Bush worthy?

I understand I might’ve just pissed a few people off by asking - sorry - feel free to answer! I’m just asking because I’d like to understand both points of view on this…

…For reference, my opinion here is that he is not at all objective because of his industry connections, and because of the underlying corruption in democracy (I’m not complaining! I think its better than most other systems of gov.t!)

Is President Bush worthy? Interesting question? As a former Army Officer, I was sworn to up hold the Constitution of the United States. And there were many times where I served under officers I did not respect. But there is an old rule: “If you cannot respect the man, respect the rank”.
If you have read some of my other posts you will see that I am a “patriotic” american. That dos not mean I will blindy follow orders. I believe America and European counties can do much to stop the spread of terrorism, but we must attack the source. That does not mean chasing a few individuals around. It will be through “public works” projects. We must win the “Hearts and Minds” (yes and old SF truism) of the people around the world.
So is Bush objective? Hell No! Is our system of democracy in need of fixing? Hell Yes!
Can we do something to fix it? Yes, but we must all work toward that goal.
Best of Luck.

I am curious, my European friend, as to what the stereotype of an archtypical american citizen is. I’m not being argumentative but am curious. I have worked a lot in Europe and have found opinions differ greatly from country to country or even region to region. Thankfully I pay the French no mind.

lol! I agree, It does vary. I think the most commonly shared view here is that the best americans are in america. I mean that not in a derogatory way! It means that the americans in america seem more shrewd than those which do the touristy thing - or rather, than those that do the touristy thing, and succeed in drawing a lot of attention to themselves. I’m from a city up north in england, and we unfarely (sp?) stereotype students as being rich-bitch oxbridge (oxford/cambridge) rejects that go around saying things like “raa raa raa, whaaht do you mean ‘your daddy doesn’t drive a jag-huaah??’”. This stereotype is just the result of the few students who do behave like this not having the common sense to blend in a little (“when in rome…”), and I think (my opinion here, not europes!!) stereotypes of americans are taken from those that draw the most attention. Notably, high-profile americans in the press, which (since the press is sensationalist) are usually in there for making mistakes, and so the stereotype has a negative edge… then the tourists which, as I said earlier, draw attention, and again, can be almost as lacking in common sense as [a vocal minority] of the students here!.. then the hollywoodisation of american buisness people, taken with a dash of salt, seals the stereotype. God knows what it is, and I would remind you this is not our appreciation of americans (I would hope to be able to say we can look beyond stereotypes!), but for each of us, [and I’m going out on a limb saying this - if anyone can think of other things, do, please, say them!!] our stereotype is an amalgamation of our interpretation of these different things.
whew. my brain hurts! I’m going to go and move little pieces of metal around, ciao!

There is a stereotype that Bush is stupid,but is their really any merit to that stereotype?Is it just becuase of his demeanor that people atuomatically assume he is dumb?

So if I were a tourist in Great Britain I would be the type to draw attention to myself? Since you singled out a post I made I would like for you to elaborate a bit further. What did you not agree with? Did I come across as one of those “nuke em’ all” types? Just curious since you did indeed single me out.

Stereotypical American? That’s easy:


Monolingual, geographically illiterate, unable to convert currencies without the use of a calculator (“How much was that in real money, Floyd?”), unfamiliar with any history outside of the US’s, complains that [whatever] isn’t the way it is back home, big belt buckles, can’t choose a wine, fat, conviced that s/he is (and Americans in general are) God’s chosen, etc. etc.


Of course, like any stereotype, there are Americans who don’t fit. But unfortunately there are also sufficient numbers of tourists who DO fit that the stereotype isn’t going to go away anytime soon.


I agree with al above. Tourists give the whole country a bad name. If you look at the expats, though, the people who’ve actually settled down and now live in a different country, you’ll get a different idea of what Americans are like.

I’m curious as to who could possibly be objective enough. I think the Bush administration on the whole (Rice, Cheney, Powell) is fairly level headed. At least it doesn’t take a poll before it decides to blow its nose.

Speaking of ‘nose,’ that reminds me of perhaps the one thing that Bush may well be objective, perhaps even particularly talented at – picking the most appropriate nasal spray to stop the drips after snorting a major line of coke. And I think he’s highly skilled at knowing which bouncers and bartenders to pay off after you groped the cocktail waitress’ ass ten too many times. And he’s VERY objective about selling off his vast shares of oil company stock only one week before that company declares financial instability and its value drops by 60%…oh yeah, and speaking of energy companies, he’s GREAT at encouraging close relations between Enron and the Taliban when you REALLY need a natural gas pipeline built from Turkenistan to Pakistan. It’s so lucky we have such an energy-industry intelligent president. Fortunately for us nearly half his cabinet were executives for Enron and other oil & power companies, and still have all sorts of stock in those sorts of companies. But we all know we ‘need’ to stick behind Bush, so I would NEVER question his objectivity, that would be unpatriotic!!!

Hmmm…does having nearly half your campaign finances bankrolled by oil & energy companies, including hopping city to city in an Enron corporate jet, affect your objectivity? NEVER!!! Turn yourself in to the police if you even considered the possibility!

Yeah, I am in a bitchy mood. Of course, that doesn’t mean that anything I said was untrue…

Why don’t you stop worrying about Americans. Just let those of us who care to visit your rotten little socialist backwaters have their fun in the touristy areas, and just be content to take their money. If some American tourists act like fools, so what? It doesn’t make their tourist dollars worth less. Quit feeding off of us Americans and our foibles, and try to feel good about yourselves by doing something constructive for your own selves.

i singled out yours merely as a very extreme example as something that wasnt self dericating, since, I wanted to voice both sides of the coin when I said how impressed I was that people were being self depricating.

hey…good one, elegua! hush, hush I agree with you…

Anyways, oh, and yeah, gotta also agree with char-dawg.

And for the record, this ain't a slam to the American Flag and the USA - okay?

We need Clinton back. His cabinet members, like Robert Rubin, didn’t have ties to big business.

I’m a Republican, and quite a conservative one at that, so yes, I do think President Bush is worthy. Perhaps he is not the most qualified or intelligent President we’ve ever had (he’s probably in the bottom half for that matter :)), but he has surrounded himself with what I think are competent individuals in all the key positions he has direct control over. Much of this, I’m sure, comes from his father, who I thought was underrated as President. Perhaps the only complaint I have with President Bush’s staff is I think they are sometimes TOO aggressive in pursuing certain matters, such as the current predicament with Iraq, where I think we should use a bit more restraint and patience before launcing into another possibly protracted war in the Middle East. On the other hand, to my frien in Britain, I think European countries tend to be much too passive, perhaps with the exception of the U.K. An example of this would be Yugoslavia, which I think spiraled way out of control before Europe reacted properly to the situation, and it was too late by that time.

Now that I’m through choking on laughter…Rubin didn’t have ties to big business!!! What rock have you been living under? Rubin was a HUGE Wall Streeter and is now the Chairman of the Executive Committe of the Board of Directors of CitiGroup one of the largest corporations in the world. He personally called several people in the Treasury department, which he was previously head of, and lobbied them to cover up the Enron mess. That was possibly the stupidest most uninformed comment I’ve ever seen on this board and that’s saying alot.

Now to the thread subject. First I disagree with your assumption regarding objectivity. Bush is the President of the US, not the world. It is his job to protect and defend the Constitution of the US, not the world. Is he objective, hell no he isn’t supposed to be. He is rightly putting American interests first. As he should. Whose interests is your government interested in when they drag their feet about joining the EU? Germany? I don’t think so.

We were attacked, it doesn’t take any objectivity to see that. Saddam is a dictator who has no qualms about gassing and killing his own people (remember the Kurds?) it doesn’t take a genius to figure out he would be more than willing to do that to others if it will advance his goals.

Personally I don’t care what the Brits, the Europeans, or anyone else thinks about how we decide to defend ourselves. When someone flies a couple of planes into Buckingham palace, Big Ben and a few British skyscrapers, killing almost three thousand Brits and costing your country billions I’ll be interested to hear whether the British still think appeasement is the proper course.

Until then why don’t you relax and enjoy the freedom you enjoy only because we came over there and saved your asses from the Nazis and then spent our tax dollars defending you from the Communists.

Be honest, what bugs the Euroweenies isn’t the fact that we are defending ourselves, it’s the fact that we don’t need your help to do it. If we decide to take out Saddam, he’ll be gone whether Britain or any other country decides to help or not. That’s what bugs the Euroweenies.

Wyzz, well said. NycMan

Thanks NycMan.

Better words were never spoken!!

I’m glad that you laughed your ass off, because I was being sarcastic. There’s only a few other posters here who hate Clinton as much as I do.

Sorry, I forgot to post my name after my reply but obviously that was me. Natt the Hat