A Serious Question About Faith

[quote]pat wrote:

Well, up until the apostles, these weren’t ‘Christian characters’ they were Jewish. And yes, some people through out history have been chosen for divine revelation while the rest of us have not. I don’t know why he chose whom he chose. They all had things in common, though, humility, faithfulness and lowliness.[/quote]

Not really…IMHO.

Paul was quite a proud man, and he writes himself in his letters that he struggles with the sin of Pride.
As far as Faith, its hard exactly to ascertain just how faithful they were before they had a supernatural encounter. After that, yes they were very faithful up til death - which is obviously really commendable but you could obviously say that the encounter was a big part of their faith.

Lets face it, an individual had a supernatural encounter with God and knew (not had faith, but knew for sure) that heaven exists, they’d be a lot more inclined to suffer what they would perceive as a temporal inconvenience or death for eternal glory.

I would have to disagree with you in the strongest terms.

Every single time where God does something supernatural in the Bible, the Bible itself records an outporing of conversions.

Elijah and the Priests of Baal: After the fire of Heaven came down, the crowd were so whipped up in religious fervor they were willing to rebel against Ahab and execute the priests of Baal on the spot.
Jesus heals the official’s son (Gospel of John): The man and his entire household believes.
Peter heals the lame beggar (in Acts): All the onlookers believe after an impromptu street sermon.

Not to mention all those times in the Old Testament God gives Israel an impropable victory and they follow the familiar route of repentance.

So yes, a great many will believe upon seeing miraculous signs. Obviously not everyone, but surely a majority.

[quote]
Jesus raised a guy from the dead who was dead for 4 days and there were witnesses to that who still didn’t believe. [/quote]

Again I beg to differ.

John 12 specifically says many Jews were turning to Jesus after they met Lazarus. Lazarus’ sister Martha who probably witnessed the event live became one of his most devoted followers.

In all honesty, a Jewish friend once told me (and I agree), assuming everything written in the Gospels are true, Jesus would have converted all of Israel in under 10 years, probably closer to 5 if he’d continued crisscrossing the country doing miracles. While that may seem like a “long time” there were no newspapers, telephone or Internet in those days, so that was actually quite a heroic effort for a lone man and a ragtag band of followers. The fact that God planned for him to die after just a couple of years of ministry is quite puzzling when put in context of how God views the Jews as his “chosen”.

Quite an astute opinion IMHO.

Look pal. Whoever you are. No offense, but neither you nor your alleged Jewish friend have any idea what they’re talking about. The Jews witnessed the plagues of Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, the defeat of Pharaoh’s army and the giving of the law only to find themselves erecting a golden calf in idolatrous unbelief. Not to mention Egypt was in no danger of turning to the God of Israel after all that either. They are fed supernaturally by God Himself with manna from heaven and whine and complain that they want meat and the Lord kills a bunch of them for that too. They are eventually sentenced to 40 years of wilderness wandering and Moses himself never enters the land of promise because of disobedience. The entire history of Israel after that is one of backsliding and judgement with God constantly reminding them them that He is their God by covenant who brought them out of the land of Egypt.

In the New Testament the Jewish officials are incessantly seeking to destroy Jesus BECAUSE of the wonders He is performing. He raises Lazarus from the dead and they want to kill Him AND Lazarus. He heals a man born blind and all hell breaks loose as they throw the guy out of the synagogue after they themselves fully acknowledge that he has been healed. They bicker with Jesus all the time about His healing people and picking corn on the Sabbath. Not washing his hands and being a blasphemer. In short they follow Him everywhere trying to discredit Him right in the face of everything that’s going on. He tells them in the gospel of John btw that they are fulfilling prophecy by their unbelief and that the reason they don’t believe, in essence, is because they aren’t His sheep. Sheep which WILL hear His voice and not follow another.

There is also the little matter of the crucifixion. After three and a half years of consistent miraculous ministry in full public view of everyone they have him killed. He rises on the third day and things didn’t get much better from there. He commissions the apostles, they go out also performing miracles everywhere, including raising the dead and are constantly in prison and persecuted by the Jews AND the Romans. I could go on and on.

You also conveniently ignored my quotes above including one where Jesus Himself teaches that being eyewitness to a resurrection won’t induce belief in someone who already refuses to believe the scriptures. Manifestations of the supernatural ARE an inducement to belief, as is also abundantly attested to in the Word, but only in those who have been chosen to believe and they are a judgement against those who do not. Don’t forget what Jesus told Thomas “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

The pagans on this board could witness God part the Atlantic from New York to London and they’d find a way to attribute it to some previously undiscovered natural phenomena. Some would proclaim it as the end of the planet due to global warming somehowe and blame George W. Bush.

[quote]NotaQuitta wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Well, up until the apostles, these weren’t ‘Christian characters’ they were Jewish. And yes, some people through out history have been chosen for divine revelation while the rest of us have not. I don’t know why he chose whom he chose. They all had things in common, though, humility, faithfulness and lowliness.[/quote]

Not really…IMHO.

Paul was quite a proud man, and he writes himself in his letters that he struggles with the sin of Pride.
[/quote]
Uh, no he doesn’t… LOL! Having read them many times, it’s the complete opposite. Where did you get such a fiction? Tell you what, provide book, chapter and verse.

Well, in those letters that mention nothing of his sin if pride, he also talks about his faithfulness as a Pharasitic Jew of the tribe of Benjamin, who’s passion for his faith was leading him persecute the followers of Christ.
Seriously do some research before you post.

No, it would reduce faithfulness to a circus act.

Yep, and then the pharisees would sit there all pissed off because people would follow Jesus instead of them, so instead of following Jesus after witnessing miracles, they plotted to kill him. I didn’t say lot’s of people didn’t convert. I said that even when people witnessed miracles, they still refused to believe.

A majority already believe. 2.1 billion Christians in the world is the largest in the world by far. There is plenty of reason to have faith with out magic. The signs are wonderful, but they are and always have been rare.

[quote]

You misinterpret what is being said. I didn’t say that people didn’t convert I said that people witnessed great miracles and still didn’t believe. That doesn’t mean that conversions didn’t happen it means that miracles aren’t a slam dunk for conversion.

[quote]
In all honesty, a Jewish friend once told me (and I agree), assuming everything written in the Gospels are true, Jesus would have converted all of Israel in under 10 years, probably closer to 5 if he’d continued crisscrossing the country doing miracles. While that may seem like a “long time” there were no newspapers, telephone or Internet in those days, so that was actually quite a heroic effort for a lone man and a ragtag band of followers. The fact that God planned for him to die after just a couple of years of ministry is quite puzzling when put in context of how God views the Jews as his “chosen”.

Quite an astute opinion IMHO.[/quote]

Bullshit. There is no way to know that and Jesus had plenty of followers already, until he said something they didn’t like, then they’d stop following, miracles be damned. Miracles are not the bulwark of faith.

With Knowledge comes faith. How do you except to have faith in something you know nothing about

[quote]UrHighness wrote:
With Knowledge comes faith. How do you except to have faith in something you know nothing about
[/quote]

With faith comes knowledge. Knowledge only comes when premises and axioms that unprovable are accepted.

This just turned into metaphysics.

[quote]UrHighness wrote:
With Knowledge comes faith. How do you except to have faith in something you know nothing about
[/quote]

Kind of. But, not really. Switch “knowledge” with “witnessing.”

One does not receive faith by oneself. Faith is given to one person to the next.

  1. Someone gives witness or their testimony of their relationship with Jesus Christ.
  2. Person who heard the testimony receives an invitation to have the faith or an invitation to be in a relationship (faith is not a list of things you believe and hold to be true, it is in fact a relationship with the King of the new Kingdom) with Jesus Christ (which entails --hopefully-- orthodox doctrine and discipline)
  3. Said person believes and enters into the faith or relationship with the King, being baptized and supernaturally saved by the grace of God through his Body, the Church, in the sacrament of baptism. He then follows the precepts and all the commandments, by the Grace of God alone, put forth by the King and his Steward, the Prime Minister of his eternal Kingdom, the servant of servants, Pope and all those bishops in union with the Pope. Said person then frequently receives gifts by his Beloved Husband, our Lord, the New King through our Husband’s body and wife, the Church.

That is a masterfully crafted piece of Catholicism there Christopher. Seriously.

[quote]pat wrote:

Uh, no he doesn’t… LOL! Having read them many times, it’s the complete opposite. Where did you get such a fiction? Tell you what, provide book, chapter and verse.
[/quote]

Come on, why are you taking this so personally? I’m not attacking any of your biblical characters, simply stating what most scholars perceive as fact.

Since you insist: 2 Corinthians 12:6-8.

Paul explicitly states God gave him a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble. And God did not take it away despite being asked thrice. If it was not something he struggled with he would not need such a constant reminder, no?

Again with the aggressive stance.

Dude, being “Faithful” enough to persecute someone is easy. Hell lots of people were “faithful” enough to persecute others for Stalin, Mao or some other despot. It is a terrible indication of faith.

Being “Faithful” enough to ENDURE persecution is where it’s at.

But that’s ridiculous because God has clearly numerous times worked wonders and many believed. The bible is full of such examples.
He can’t be in agreement with such theology - unless of course you are suggesting he likes circus acts too?

True there’ll always be sceptics.
But even assuming a simple majority of people believed (60%) would it not be worth it?

Even assuming all those 2.1 billion are real believers and not nominal christians (I’d probably be counted in under that as the Government takes a census of my family as “Christian”), that still leaves 4 billion others…

So we agree that miracles or supernatural signs are a great catalyst for conversion as opposed to conventional evangelism. Obviously not perfect but much better.
Going back on topic, I still think those who witnessed miracles or supernatural signs would be far more “Faithful” than those who convert in the more traditional manner. You do know there are also a large number of backslidden Christians who only turn up on Easter and Christmas…right?

[quote]
Bullshit. There is no way to know that and Jesus had plenty of followers already, until he said something they didn’t like, then they’d stop following, miracles be damned. Miracles are not the bulwark of faith. [/quote]

Well, those who directly followed Jesus and saw the miracles he performed typically formed the most faithful of the followers. We actually have biblical accounts and Church histories show all the apostles were quite dedicated up till death.

We have much less evidence that any of those people “fell away”.

Serious question, wouldn’t you like it if God sent an angel to speak with you tonight? Wouldn’t you feel encouraged in your faith? Especially if you’re going through tough times.

If God is real, this kind of stuff should be happening more often - that’s all I’m saying. But it isn’t.

FTR, I’m not atheist. Probably more agnostic in that I believe in a God that chooses not to reveal himself for whatever reason.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Look pal. Whoever you are. No offense, but neither you nor your alleged Jewish friend have any idea what they’re talking about. The Jews witnessed the plagues of Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, the defeat of Pharaoh’s army and the giving of the law only to find themselves erecting a golden calf in idolatrous unbelief. Not to mention Egypt was in no danger of turning to the God of Israel after all that either. They are fed supernaturally by God Himself with manna from heaven and whine and complain that they want meat and the Lord kills a bunch of them for that too. They are eventually sentenced to 40 years of wilderness wandering and Moses himself never enters the land of promise because of disobedience. The entire history of Israel after that is one of backsliding and judgement with God constantly reminding them them that He is their God by covenant who brought them out of the land of Egypt. [/quote]

Hold on there pal, you can’t apply today’s standards to people of 2,500 years ago.

Every time those people experienced a major miracle they believed. Aside from the Exodus generation, basically Israel experienced some sort of spiritual revival after every major act of God - during the Judges and Kings era especially.

Obviously these revivals didn’t last too long but you have to remember there wasn’t any video those days and the majority of people were illiterate. So there’s that. After a while old stories become mundane and lets face it, 2000 years ago people believed all sorts of magical shit.

There probably were all sorts of stories on other competing Gods doing all sorts of crazy shit too - stuff that made parting the Red Sea look ordinary. They probably weren’t real, but can an illiterate farmer tell the difference?

Even today there are nuts disputing if we landed on the Moon and we have video of that, and even moon rocks.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

You also conveniently ignored my quotes above including one where Jesus Himself teaches that being eyewitness to a resurrection won’t induce belief in someone who already refuses to believe the scriptures. Manifestations of the supernatural ARE an inducement to belief, as is also abundantly attested to in the Word, but only in those who have been chosen to believe and they are a judgement against those who do not. Don’t forget what Jesus told Thomas “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

The pagans on this board could witness God part the Atlantic from New York to London and they’d find a way to attribute it to some previously undiscovered natural phenomena. Some would proclaim it as the end of the planet due to global warming somehowe and blame George W. Bush.
[/quote]

Yeah Jesus might have said that, but don’t you think the appearance of Jesus to Thomas caused a major difference in his belief and faith?

Thomas was the apostle who went the furthest to spread Jesus’ gospel after his death according to Church historians, you mighta think Jesus appearing to Thomas and asking him to feel the nail holes in his palms might’ve something to do with that…

Nevermind. You win. What could I have ever been thinking?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
That is a masterfully crafted piece of making a distinction between words, since if they were the same word we wouldn’t need two different words for the exact same thing… there Christopher. Seriously.[/quote]

Fixed. And, thank you.

[quote]NotaQuitta wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Uh, no he doesn’t… LOL! Having read them many times, it’s the complete opposite. Where did you get such a fiction? Tell you what, provide book, chapter and verse.
[/quote]

Come on, why are you taking this so personally? I’m not attacking any of your biblical characters, simply stating what most scholars perceive as fact.

Since you insist: 2 Corinthians 12:6-8.

Paul explicitly states God gave him a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble. And God did not take it away despite being asked thrice. If it was not something he struggled with he would not need such a constant reminder, no?
[/quote]
No. Unless you consider boasting in weakness a prideful thing. In context the extract does not say what you wish it would.

It merely refutes your notion that Paul wasn’t a extremely religious person before his conversion. Acts 26 speaks to this clearly.

I am merely saying faith isn’t about putting on a show, which is the demand you are putting on God. He said it plainly, 'No sign will be given." That question is asked and answered.

That would also inhibit freewill. The point is to choose him willingly, then you will see his magic. Signs and wonders were rare even in the Bible. The ancient texts cover huge swaths of time that sometimes in reading appears to be a quick succession.

Most practice other faiths, but the majority is Christian. Not a big deal, God obviously has other plans for them.

Yes. I am not terribly worried about that. I can only control myself. Knowing what you cannot control is part of the faith experience. Most everything is out of our control.

[quote]

[quote]
Bullshit. There is no way to know that and Jesus had plenty of followers already, until he said something they didn’t like, then they’d stop following, miracles be damned. Miracles are not the bulwark of faith. [/quote]

Well, those who directly followed Jesus and saw the miracles he performed typically formed the most faithful of the followers. We actually have biblical accounts and Church histories show all the apostles were quite dedicated up till death.

We have much less evidence that any of those people “fell away”.

Serious question, wouldn’t you like it if God sent an angel to speak with you tonight? Wouldn’t you feel encouraged in your faith? Especially if you’re going through tough times.

If God is real, this kind of stuff should be happening more often - that’s all I’m saying. But it isn’t.

FTR, I’m not atheist. Probably more agnostic in that I believe in a God that chooses not to reveal himself for whatever reason.[/quote]

I am not sure I’d want a visitation. Those who get those are asked for a lot. Would you want a visitation if it meant you had to completely change everything about who you are. Would you be willing to walk away from everything and everybody, be willing to be ridiculed and persecuted for name if Christ, just to have a miraculous experience? That’s what was required of Paul…
Careful what you wish for, you might get it.