A Matter of Ethics...

Off Topic
41

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
My old man just got home from the job, and told me that he informed the owner’s son (a guy in his 30’s- not kid). The son was dumbfounded; as far as he knew, the guy was “married before, but in some kind of abusive relationship”. Apparently he didn’t mention the whole “hacksaw to the neck” thing.

To make things worse, this guy is “dating” a woman who works in the same section (the nursery of a garden center). This broad is also nearly schizophrenic, and seems barely able to take care of herself. She talks to inanimate objects, mumbles incoherently, and (ironically, hah) talks about her Church all the time.

Like I said, I found out the whole thing is true…my neighbor is the cop that arrested him.

I couldn’t make this shit up if I tried…I’m actually speechless. Which, if you knew me, is a big fuckin rarity.

A murderer, a lunatic and other “disreputable characters…”

I am never going to another garden center as long as I live.
[/quote]

I have more stories than you would believe…guys helping customers while their bottle of whiskey slowly works it’s way out of their pockets, guys shooting heroin in the nursery…It’s as amusing as it is sad.

[quote]
Oh, and to the guy who asked what the murderer answered on teh “have you ever been convicted of a felony? if yes, please describe” and thought that the managers MUST know about it … very often NO background checks are performed on employees. They’re basically taking your word for it when you answer “no.”[/quote]

Shit jobs don’t do background checks. We’re kind of like the French Foreign Legion, just without the weapons (thankfully)

42

[quote]BIGRAGOO wrote:
Yo Momma wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

He said the guy probably served about 18 years, and he thought it was fucked up that the guy was out. Sometimes I hate New Jersey.

18 years for murder one, and a particularly gruesome one at that? Doesn’t sound right to me. Either the story is embellished or he’s got one hell of a lawyer.

I’m wondering if their was a plea of insanity or mental illness.[/quote]

Being as his wife was cheating, I heard the words, “Crime of passion” a couple times, so I think it might be something like that. Temporary insanity mixed with some kind of forgetting his medication I guess.

Like I said, New Jersey is fucked up sometimes

43

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
My old man just got home from the job, and told me that he informed the owner’s son (a guy in his 30’s- not kid). The son was dumbfounded; as far as he knew, the guy was “married before, but in some kind of abusive relationship”. Apparently he didn’t mention the whole “hacksaw to the neck” thing.

To make things worse, this guy is “dating” a woman who works in the same section (the nursery of a garden center). This broad is also nearly schizophrenic, and seems barely able to take care of herself. She talks to inanimate objects, mumbles incoherently, and (ironically, hah) talks about her Church all the time.

Like I said, I found out the whole thing is true…my neighbor is the cop that arrested him.

I couldn’t make this shit up if I tried…I’m actually speechless. Which, if you knew me, is a big fuckin rarity.
[/quote]

You know, cutting someone’s head off might not make the papers in Jersey, but most places it would. If it did you can look it up at the library and secretly post a copy on your workplace bulletin board. That should get the word out without you having to figuratively (maybe literally) stick your neck out!

44

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
My old man just got home from the job, and told me that he informed the owner’s son (a guy in his 30’s- not kid). The son was dumbfounded; as far as he knew, the guy was “married before, but in some kind of abusive relationship”. Apparently he didn’t mention the whole “hacksaw to the neck” thing.

To make things worse, this guy is “dating” a woman who works in the same section (the nursery of a garden center). This broad is also nearly schizophrenic, and seems barely able to take care of herself. She talks to inanimate objects, mumbles incoherently, and (ironically, hah) talks about her Church all the time.

Like I said, I found out the whole thing is true…my neighbor is the cop that arrested him.

I couldn’t make this shit up if I tried…I’m actually speechless. Which, if you knew me, is a big fuckin rarity.

You know, cutting someone’s head off might not make the papers in Jersey, but most places it would. If it did you can look it up at the library and secretly post a copy on your workplace bulletin board. That should get the word out without you having to figuratively (maybe literally) stick your neck out!

[/quote]

Funny you should say that, but a body was just chucked onto a big highway where I live, evidently it was a Mafia hit…it never made the papers.

At least it’s more interesting than when they just chop the guy up and leave him in the trunk of a Lincoln in the long term parking at Newark Airport.

45

[quote]apayne wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

To make things worse, this guy is “dating” a woman who works in the same section (the nursery of a garden center). This broad is also nearly schizophrenic, and seems barely able to take care of herself. She talks to inanimate objects, mumbles incoherently, and (ironically, hah) talks about her Church all the time.

Now that’s what I call natural selection!
[/quote]

Where’s the problem?

46

[quote]doogie wrote:
I don’t even understand the question. What do you owe the guy? He’s a sick, murdering fuck. People need to know that. Are you worried about hurting his feelings?[/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree with Doogie, and am often scolded for my thinking…I think a lot of people feel it’s not “politically correct” to think like we do.

Unfortunately, equal opportunity dictates that employers aren’t allowed to “discriminate” based upon health status (psych issues that are being “treated” and other bases, and (maybe one of our t-attorneys can claify, but aren’t there laws saying we can’t “discriminate” based upon felony convictions as well?)

This leaves us vulnerable to potential dangers of working with these people. And schizophrenics are UNPREDICTABLE. Scary. Perhaps you may want to speak to your supervisor in private about this?

Anyway, good luck.

47

Jesus Irish, what part of Jersey do you live in? I seriously hope none of this shit happens to you. Stay strong.

48

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
lostinthought wrote:
Playing the devil’s advocate…Is it possible that the story is exaggerated? I mean, is it possible he killed his wife during a very physical argument, she’s abused him badly numerous times in the past, and he was “over” defending himself? I know you mentioned the word dismembered…But what exactly are the facts and how are they known?

No, it’s not embellished. He got a hacksaw, tried to cut her head off, and the blade apparently broke in her throat.

He proceeded to decapitate her, hid the head under the bed, and then dismembered her, Mafia style. His own father turned him in.

This comes from the mouth of the cop who arrested him. He said that it was one of the more…gruesome things he’d seen being a cop.

I shit you not.[/quote]

Oh damn…

49

[quote]danmaftei wrote:
Jesus Irish, what part of Jersey do you live in? I seriously hope none of this shit happens to you. Stay strong.[/quote]

I live in North Jersey. Not to play into any stereotypes or anything, but all those places that you see in the Sopranos- they’re filmed where I live (and the surrounding towns).

When you’ve got over a thousand people per square mile, you’re bound to have some crazies. Throw in some nasty ghettos, the Mafia, and the hillbilly parts North of us, and this is what you get.

50

Egads you work in a whacky place

But I have to stress, there is a huge difference between a person who murders/decapitates out of cold (or hot) blooded hatred, and someone who is INSANE.

18 years is a very long time in psychiatric medicine and it is likely in my opinion that the guy has been adequately medicated and observed for 18 years and been OK in prison (or wherever he was).

I very much suspect that the system that let him out is convinced he is OK to let out.

Unless they really screwed up. Which is possible. Especially if he is insane, undiagnosed, and they treated it like a normal murder case, he served time and now they have let out a lunatic with no medication or observation, who was 100% well behaved in an all-male prison that had nothing to trigger his murderous behaviour.

I’d let people know because it is better to let them know and perhaps save them, than not let them know and regret it for the rest of your life if something goes wrong.

It is also pretty crap that the boss at least wasn’t somehow informed by the system.

51

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
Egads you work in a whacky place

But I have to stress, there is a huge difference between a person who murders/decapitates out of cold (or hot) blooded hatred, and someone who is INSANE.

18 years is a very long time in psychiatric medicine and it is likely in my opinion that the guy has been adequately medicated and observed for 18 years and been OK in prison (or wherever he was).

I very much suspect that the system that let him out is convinced he is OK to let out.

Unless they really screwed up. Which is possible. Especially if he is insane, undiagnosed, and they treated it like a normal murder case, he served time and now they have let out a lunatic with no medication or observation, who was 100% well behaved in an all-male prison that had nothing to trigger his murderous behaviour.

I’d let people know because it is better to let them know and perhaps save them, than not let them know and regret it for the rest of your life if something goes wrong.

It is also pretty crap that the boss at least wasn’t somehow informed by the system.
[/quote]

I don’t get the insanity defense at all.

If he was crazy and had to be treated for those 18 years just to reach the point of sanity, he now owes his debt to society for the murder. He got psyche treatment at taxpayer expense, so now he owes for the murder AND the treatment.

52

[quote]Magarhe wrote:

18 years is a very long time in psychiatric medicine and it is likely in my opinion that the guy has been adequately medicated and observed for 18 years and been OK in prison (or wherever he was).

I very much suspect that the system that let him out is convinced he is OK to let out.

It is also pretty crap that the boss at least wasn’t somehow informed by the system.
[/quote]

The system is forced to release stable mental health people because they’re legally bound to do so.

Also, especially with the Mental Health industry, confidentiality laws are one of the main issues, in terms of legalities/liability. And this is moreso significant with the recent emphasis on HIPAA.

The Mental Health System, because of the laws that are in place, has to be very mindful of their clinical decisions in terms of Mental Health patients, as these patients have lots of special rights under the laws of this land. For example, there are time limits and specific indications as to how long and why facilities can hold patients coming from the streets to the ER’s, the ER’s to the Psych Units, the Psych Units to the Psych Hospitals. The same criteria apply to the police finding an actively psychotic person on the streets and bringing the person to a facility-- they have to walk a very straight, thin legal line, otherwise they technically are violating the person’s rights. And the patients have to be reassessed within these time limits and assessment/indication parameters, otherwise their rights are being violated as well.

And remember that simply someone being mentally ill doesn’t mean that they can be taken into custody, or ever kept in custody or kept in a facility once they’re there…there has to be specific criteria met at any one time, and if the indications have resolved, the MH facilities must release the patient.

Very very often, these parameters and time limits can conflict with what’s in the best interests of society, although they are conducive to protecting the mental health patient’s rights. Therefore, when a patient who had subsequently been very unstable, has been in a facility for a certain amount of time and is stable, insightful, etc…the MH clinicians are forced, because of the laws of this land, to release the person back into society. The common thing is for an MH person to have some kind of stressor- a life change, drug use, etc… or to feel “normal” again and decide that he/she is cured and stop taking the meds, thereby becoming again Psychotic, Delusional, Decompensated, Homocidal, Suicidal, etc…again, and hopefully end up in the system again before being able to inflict much harm upon society.

Hence, this is one reason why people in the field have long referred to it as the “Revolving Door of Mental Health”. The MH industry, because of the many laws that very closely regulate MH practice, is forced to abide by these laws in order to protect the rights of MH patients.

I only post this because I know a lot of people will ask why this person with a history of xyz behavior but stable today, is able to be released back into the community, and the thin line of legalities that regulate the mental health field enables much of this.

53

[quote]chinadoll wrote:
Magarhe wrote:

18 years is a very long time in psychiatric medicine and it is likely in my opinion that the guy has been adequately medicated and observed for 18 years and been OK in prison (or wherever he was).

I very much suspect that the system that let him out is convinced he is OK to let out.

It is also pretty crap that the boss at least wasn’t somehow informed by the system.

The system is forced to release stable mental health people because they’re legally bound to do so.

Also, especially with the Mental Health industry, confidentiality laws are one of the main issues, in terms of legalities/liability. And this is moreso significant with the recent emphasis on HIPAA.

The Mental Health System, because of the laws that are in place, has to be very mindful of their clinical decisions in terms of Mental Health patients, as these patients have lots of special rights under the laws of this land. For example, there are time limits and specific indications as to how long and why facilities can hold patients coming from the streets to the ER’s, the ER’s to the Psych Units, the Psych Units to the Psych Hospitals. The same criteria apply to the police finding an actively psychotic person on the streets and bringing the person to a facility-- they have to walk a very straight, thin legal line, otherwise they technically are violating the person’s rights. And the patients have to be reassessed within these time limits and assessment/indication parameters, otherwise their rights are being violated as well.

And remember that simply someone being mentally ill doesn’t mean that they can be taken into custody, or ever kept in custody or kept in a facility once they’re there…there has to be specific criteria met at any one time, and if the indications have resolved, the MH facilities must release the patient.

Very very often, these parameters and time limits can conflict with what’s in the best interests of society, although they are conducive to protecting the mental health patient’s rights. Therefore, when a patient who had subsequently been very unstable, has been in a facility for a certain amount of time and is stable, insightful, etc…the MH clinicians are forced, because of the laws of this land, to release the person back into society. The common thing is for an MH person to have some kind of stressor- a life change, drug use, etc… or to feel “normal” again and decide that he/she is cured and stop taking the meds, thereby becoming again Psychotic, Delusional, Decompensated, Homocidal, Suicidal, etc…again, and hopefully end up in the system again before being able to inflict much harm upon society.

Hence, this is one reason why people in the field have long referred to it as the “Revolving Door of Mental Health”. The MH industry, because of the many laws that very closely regulate MH practice, is forced to abide by these laws in order to protect the rights of MH patients.

I only post this because I know a lot of people will ask why this person with a history of xyz behavior but stable today, is able to be released back into the community, and the thin line of legalities that regulate the mental health field enables much of this.
[/quote]

We all can thank Ronald Regan for the stupid laws we have now regarding mental health. Before Regan when someone was determined to have a mental disorder that impaired their judgment they could be placed in a hospital for treatment until they were stable. Now, thanks to Regan, a person can be psychotic as hell, but if they are not a danger to themselves or others they have the choice to not be hospitalized. Giving someone who doesn’t have the ability to make choices the choice to treatment or not was not a bright move by Regan.

So if you want to know why there are more homeless now after Regan it is mostly because these are mental health patients who have been given the choice to be on the streets or in a hospital and most have chosen the streets!

54

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
…
We all can thank Ronald Regan for the stupid laws we have now regarding mental health. Before Regan when someone was determined to have a mental disorder that impaired their judgment they could be placed in a hospital for treatment until they were stable. Now, thanks to Regan, a person can be psychotic as hell, but if they are not a danger to themselves or others they have the choice to not be hospitalized. Giving someone who doesn’t have the ability to make choices the choice to treatment or not was not a bright move by Regan.

So if you want to know why there are more homeless now after Regan it is mostly because these are mental health patients who have been given the choice to be on the streets or in a hospital and most have chosen the streets!

[/quote]

This has nothing to do with Reagan.

It is purely the courts.

I believe the initial case started during the Carter years but was finalized by the Supreme Court during the Reagan years.

Either way it has nothing to do with them, just the fact that the Supreme Court ruled that mentally ill have the same rights as the rest of us.

They cannot be locked up or institutionalized unless they are a proven danger to others.

55

Mr. Irish26,

I’m not too sure about going to the boss…

The other “disreputable characters” that work with you and him may not be too keen on having a rat running around the nursery.

Your dad has informed to the boss’s son. Responsibility has been passed. You have nothing to lose sleep over.

If the boss does nothing, look for another job, you don’t know how many other short triggered axe murderers you are working with.

If the boss fires him, place yourself at your father’s back, just in case. He did the noble thing here, he is in the right, but the others may see it differently.

I am glad I am not in your shoes.

Good Luck
Stinker.

56

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
…
We all can thank Ronald Regan for the stupid laws we have now regarding mental health. Before Regan when someone was determined to have a mental disorder that impaired their judgment they could be placed in a hospital for treatment until they were stable. Now, thanks to Regan, a person can be psychotic as hell, but if they are not a danger to themselves or others they have the choice to not be hospitalized. Giving someone who doesn’t have the ability to make choices the choice to treatment or not was not a bright move by Regan.

So if you want to know why there are more homeless now after Regan it is mostly because these are mental health patients who have been given the choice to be on the streets or in a hospital and most have chosen the streets!

This has nothing to do with Reagan.

It is purely the courts.

I believe the initial case started during the Carter years but was finalized by the Supreme Court during the Reagan years.

Either way it has nothing to do with them, just the fact that the Supreme Court ruled that mentally ill have the same rights as the rest of us.

They cannot be locked up or institutionalized unless they are a proven danger to others.

[/quote]

Well, in my case, I think it’s proven quite well that this guy is a danger to others.

I talked with the boss, gave him all the gory details. He’s still kind of shocked. I told’em that I wouldn’t want to be in his place…

There are going to be more steps taken about this…I’ll let you all know when I hear about it.

57

[quote]Stinker wrote:
Mr. Irish26,

I’m not too sure about going to the boss…

The other “disreputable characters” that work with you and him may not be too keen on having a rat running around the nursery.

Your dad has informed to the boss’s son. Responsibility has been passed. You have nothing to lose sleep over.

If the boss does nothing, look for another job, you don’t know how many other short triggered axe murderers you are working with.

If the boss fires him, place yourself at your father’s back, just in case. He did the noble thing here, he is in the right, but the others may see it differently.

I am glad I am not in your shoes.

Good Luck
Stinker.[/quote]

I appreciate the concern, but the last thing I’m concerned with is physical retribution from anyone. The disreputable characters are friends to me, and even they know when a line like that has been crossed in regards to committing crimes. It’s funny when tough guys like that even look at you and go, “Wow, that’s fucked up”.

I’m only concerned about this crazy fucker. At this point, I think he should be looking for a new job, and I think that might be what’s going to happen.

58

Geez, cut the guy some slack. He cut up his wife. It’s not like he defrauded investors or something really heinous like that. Otherwise, he’d still be in prison.

DB

59

It doesn’t seem unbelievable to me that he is out after only 18 years. In Australia there have been cases where murderers are released after only serving 10-12 years of a ‘life’ sentence. As far as being reformed in prison, there are no women there to victimise, so of course he would appear reformed and non-violent.
It is good that you have let people know about him. I hope that nothing personally comes back onto you.
Cain

60

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I talked with the boss, gave him all the gory details. He’s still kind of shocked. I told’em that I wouldn’t want to be in his place…

There are going to be more steps taken about this…I’ll let you all know when I hear about it.
[/quote]

Smart move. Good luck Irish and stay safe!