[quote]Testy1 wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Uh, working group?
Uh, wouldn’t that include herders?[/quote]
square is a rectangle ==> rectangle is a square
There are working dogs that aren’t herders. Unless my malamute is a herder.
[quote]Geminspector wrote:
…toy breeds were bred to work in some capacity.[/quote]
Toy breeds are annoying… Sorry to those people that have Poms and such… But I can’t stand their high pitched barking. They bark at the slightest noise. They also need attention 24/7. My ex had a tea-cup Pom, annoying.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
wfifer wrote:
Get a Weimaraner. They’re clean, great with kids and love to run around outside.
Respectfully, I disagree.
My good friend had to recently get rid of his fiancees weimeraner, since it was TOO active and on the boil. He tried everything he could, to adapt its behaviour, including dog training and activity classes.
They had a dobermann too which was well behaved and they kept him, but the weimeraner is a working dog and just couldn’t cope without constant stimulation.
However you can’t plot a graph from one point. I’m sure not all weimeraners are this intense.
Bushy[/quote]
They definitely need to be exercised quite a bit. For an active family with children and a lot of space it’s a great fit. Maybe not as a first dog, as they do need to be trained well from the beginning.
We got our weimaraner from an old couple who was going to put him down. He’s very mellow for his breed and he absolutely loves people and other animals. Definitely atypical.
[quote]josh86 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
josh86 wrote:
Oh and I almost forgot: I HATE the media and I can easily list three reasons why…
Anyway, back on topic. Dogs![/quote]
2x to almost everything you’ve written.
Add a vote for English Stafford Terriers, they’re known as nanny dogs in England.
Ours was a rescue dog, and is now a temperament-tested therapy dog. (He visits at hospitals, seniors housing, etc)
So for our Samson specifically:
The Good:
0 people aggression - he’d love a burgular.
Low maintenace - 3 baths a year, 2 moderate walks a day, lots of naps near the fireplace.
Looks like a bit of a bad-ass, so I’d think my wife was safer if she took him out in the evening.
Very Quiet.
The Bad:
Squirrels & skunks are his sworn enemies, so he might jerk somebody smaller off their feet if they weren’t paying attention while walking him.
Dumb as a stump. I’ve met a good number of really smart Pits, but he ain’t one of them.
Bit of a baby when its cold/wet.
A spacehog on ‘his’ couch. We allow him on one of our couches, by invitation only, then he sees just how close he can squash himself against you.
I’d have no qualms against getting a fixed adult Pit-Bull breed that I had personally tested for temperament.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
Capacity wrote:
This goes for health-related issues too. Many people think mixed breeds are healthier when in fact, they share the same likelihood of inheriting any of the health issues of the breeds in their genetic gene pool.
While purebreds typically share a couple of known genetic health issues, mixed breeds can develop any of the health issues from any of the breeds in it.
I am no expert, but this just doesn’t make sense due to dilution of the gene pool. [/quote]
Mixed breeds do not have a “diluted” gene pool, but inherit their genetic stamp from their parental (familial) lines just as purebreds do.
The problem with keeping track of health statistics in mixed breeds is that there is no Mixed Breed Registry. In other words, there is no organization or professional group motivated to record the “family tree” and track the occurrence of heritable diseases in mutts. So basically you are left to try to collect statistical data (and opinions) about heritable disease in mixed breeds from the people who train or treat these dogs for a living; typically dog trainers, groomers and veterinarians.
These people are exposed to volumes dogs from a large cross section of breeds. I tend to value their opinion and observations over the average pet owner, who usually have a personal bias and a limited exposure to a variety of different breeds over their lifetime. Many of the people I know who work in animal professions will talk about the growing rate of genetic-related diseases in mixed breeds.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
For example, a vast majority of Dalmatians are deaf due to inbreeding (thanks 101 Dalmatians), but I doubt you will find many Dalmatian/mix breeds that are deaf. Specialization has to bring certain genetic traits to the forefront, good or bad.
[/quote]
Congenital deafness has been reported for approximately 80 breeds and the list continues to grow. I am not a vet or a geneticist, but I know it is not fully understood what causes deafness in certain breeds. They know that sometimes it’s linked (somehow) to the merle gene and pigmentation (Specifically, white). Dalmatians are born totally white. So are ACDs. It’s no surprise that deafness plagues my breed too. http://www.offa.org/deafgeninfo.html
Deaf mixed breeds that have Dalmatian, ACD, or one of the other many breeds prone to deafness or that carry the merle gene can be deaf and/or produce deaf puppies. It’s a very, very complex issue and I’ve personally known breeders, my own included, who’ve had to deal with the heartache of producing a deaf puppy in spite of a very carefully planned breeding with fully tested breeding pairs.
Deafness is really not as simple as being the result of too much “inbreeding” but can be the result when untested breeding pairs are repeatedly bred and the untested offspring are not sold with a spay or neuter contract.
Unfortunately, most inherited traits, including inherited diseases, are probably polygenic. http://www.upei.ca/cidd/howare.htm#ar They have a complex mode of inheritance influenced by multiple gene pairs. To date, no DNA tests have been developed to identify the specific combination of mutant genes responsible for any polygenic disorders. Therefore, decisions regarding a dog’s suitability for breeding purposes rely on phenotypic evaluations.
The complexity of polygenic traits results in a wide range of expression, from least to most desirable. It is the reason why two dogs of ideal conformation may produce offspring less than ideal, and the reason why the mating of two dogs that are phenotypically normal for a disease may produce affected offspring. When dealing with genetic unknowns, it is difficult to control the incidence of a polygenic disease.
The same can be said for glaucoma; Many small mixed breeds develop glaucoma because they inherited it from one of the breeds in their gene pool (Terrier is often one of the breeds) that are prone to it. PRA is another devastating eye disease that my breed is fighting. The Canine Eye Registry Foundation (CERF) reports that PRA affects several other breeds and mixed breeds as well. http://www.vmdb.org/july99.html#dx
The same can be said for seizures, which are common in many purebreds as well as mixed breeds that have an assortment of affected breed genes in them. "Epilepsy is found in all breeds and mixed breeds of dogs. Belgian Tervueren are listed among the breeds for which a genetic factor is either proved or highly suspected. Other breeds so listed include the Beagle, Dachshund, German Shepherd Dog, (Alsatian), and Keeshond.
A high incidence of seizure disorders is also found in Boxers, Cocker Spaniels, Collies, Golden Retrievers, Irish Setters, Labrador Retrievers, Miniature Schnauzers, Poodles, Saint Bernards, Siberian Huskies, and Wire-Haired Terriers. (Oliver, Seizures). The prevalence of epilepsy in the general dog population has been estimated at .5 to 5.7%. (Koestner, Cunningham)." http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/FAQ.html
And cardiomyopathy. http://www.southpaws.com/topics/canine-dcm.html
And Sebaceous Adenitis. http://www.gsdhelp.info/allergies/sebaceous.html
And don’t even get me started on hip and elbow dysplasia, which continues to cripple dogs across all sectors.
Bottom line, one of the reasons why veterinary care has become so expensive is because more and more pets are requiring medical care … mixed breeds included. So if I were to engage in a discussion about the pros of choosing a purebred over a mixed breed, one of my comments would be to point out that the genetic history of a purebred can sometimes be traced, breeding pairs carefully tested and (hopefully) a better opportunity to obtain a dog that has been carefully bred away from certain heritable diseases. You don’t have those options when you get a mixed breed.
Naturally, there are always exceptions, like the breeder who doesn’t bother to test for breed-specific genetic markers or the dog that develops something (like deafness) in spite of ethical breeding practices. I’ve owned dogs from both sides of that coin. So health databases can play a significant role. As the database is populated, incorporating information not only on the parent’s phenotype into the breeding decision, but phenotypic information from close relatives such as siblings, half siblings, aunts, uncles, grand-sires, and grand-dams becomes possible. This allows breeders to make a more accurate assumption regarding the potential sire and dam’s genotype, and allows them to apply greater selective pressure to produce desired and avoid undesirable traits.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
Doesn’t that leave only guarding and fighting breeds?[/quote]
There is no such thing as a “fighting” or “guarding” group or breed, but several breeds were bred with personal protection in mind. In addition, dogs from many breeds are often used in areas of service or in ways they were not originally intended. The German Shepherd is typically trained as a police, protection or guard dog, but it actually comes from the Herding group. The traits that make the GS so well suited for those jobs stem from the intense prey drive and intelligence of the herding breeds. The Golden Retriever is bird dog from the Sporting group, but it’s keen sense of smell and love of people make them highly suited for search and rescue or as guide/therapy dogs. Humans have learned to exploit certain heritable traits and temperament of some breeds to our advantage.
Cappy
[quote]Capacity wrote:
The problem with keeping track of health statistics in mixed breeds is that there is no Mixed Breed Registry. In other words, there is no organization or professional group motivated to record the “family tree” and track the occurrence of heritable diseases in mutts. So basically you are left to try to collect statistical data (and opinions) about heritable disease in mixed breeds from the people who train or treat these dogs for a living; typically dog trainers, groomers and veterinarians.
[/quote]
I dont have it with me, But I saved a USA Today that talked about a “foundation”, if you will, that is like the AKC for mutts and mixed breed. You can go and register you MB dogs and they said that they were even going to have MB dogs shows. Ill get the artical when I get home and Ill put up the link to their site.
[quote]Himora22 wrote:
I dont have it with me, But I saved a USA Today that talked about a “foundation”, if you will, that is like the AKC for mutts and mixed breed. You can go and register you MB dogs and they said that they were even going to have MB dogs shows. Ill get the artical when I get home and Ill put up the link to their site.[/quote]
There are a few different groups that are starting to offer DNA tests for mixed breeds, the idea being to help people identify the breeds in their dogs. Part of this was just a response to satisfy human curiosity, but there is a growing interest because people with mixed breeds are running into health issues with their dogs and knowing what genes their dogs have may expedite better treatment. (I know a couple of people who’ve done the DNA test on their mutt only to be totally shocked by the results. Sometimes what you see just ain’t what you got!)
I think this is a worthy endeavor, but like anything else, the organization is only as good as the people who run it. Sometimes the wrong people get in control and it discredits a lot of hard work. This already happened with one testing organization.
The AKC allows you to put an PAL (Purebred Alternative Listing) or ILP (Indefinite Listing Privilege) on an unregistered dog, but that dog must look very close to a purebred standard. (You have to submit pictures) You can’t ILP a dog that is obviously a mixed breed. These listing are not registration papers, but simply allow you to enter your dog in certain types of AKC competition.
There are organizations for mixed breeds. These are not registries, but mixed breed clubs. Many of the clubs try to promote education (training, health, sterilization, etc.) while allowing mixed breeds to compete. I think that’s a very worthy cause. One of the best things about competition is the increased time spent training and working with the dog. That’s a win-win situation no matter what the outcome.
The AKC lists this club:
Mixed Breed Dog Clubs of America 13884 State Route 104 Lucasville , OH 45648-8586 http://mbdca.tripod.com/
Cappy
[quote]frodolives wrote:
My wife and I have decided to get a family dog around spring time. I’ve never owned a dog before so I have been learning about the different breeds online and in book stores. I’m leaning toward the boxer, beagle and german shepherd. We live in a rural area so there is lots of room to run. We have 2 kids ages 5 and 7. Any opinions on the three breeds or any other breed would be great.[/quote]
Don’t do it. Dogs stink, eat their own poop, slobber everywhere, jump on guests and piss them off, wake the neighbors at night, carry fleas and other disease (like rabies) and many times attack and eat parts of your children off. Dogs belong in the wild. They have no other use.
wow had to find this post today. had to family dog down today. old buona. not a word of a lie, the old girl was 17 and a half years old, damn good if you are a golden retreiver.she was blind and deaf, had horrible hips, but still pulled through. her condition went dowhnill fast his weekedend though, and had to make the choice. the vet said he could barely find a vein to stick the needle in her pulse was so weak. she was great, and i miss her already
RIP Buona we miss you
[quote]silverblood wrote:
Proud owner of a Miniature Blue Merle Australian Shepherd. These dogs are not for everyone.[/quote]
Now there’s a brave man. Australian shepherds, like any cattle dog, are probably the worst dog to have around children, because of their herding behavior. In contrast to sheepdogs, like border collies, which I’ve gotta say, if you’ve got small children and at least 50 acres, are one of the best dogs for that mix. Both sorts of dog will herd your children, actually, with the OCD nature of border collies, will herd your children, squirrels, song birds, power tools, lawn gnomes–its one of those things that has to be seen to appreciated.
nywho, sheep dogs are used to their subjects being afraid of them, so they’ll herd from the front and try and stare down the sheep. Cattle dogs, though, herd from the back, where the cow can’t try and gore them–and they move them by nipping their heels. Unfortunately, that nipping behavior applies to everything else in their lives. Only dogs I’ve ever wanted to strangle out of annoyance.
[quote]Capacity wrote:
Testy1 wrote:
Capacity wrote:
This goes for health-related issues too. Many people think mixed breeds are healthier when in fact, they share the same likelihood of inheriting any of the health issues of the breeds in their genetic gene pool.
While purebreds typically share a couple of known genetic health issues, mixed breeds can develop any of the health issues from any of the breeds in it.
I am no expert, but this just doesn’t make sense due to dilution of the gene pool.
Mixed breeds do not have a “diluted” gene pool, but inherit their genetic stamp from their parental (familial) lines just as purebreds do.
The problem with keeping track of health statistics in mixed breeds is that there is no Mixed Breed Registry. In other words, there is no organization or professional group motivated to record the “family tree” and track the occurrence of heritable diseases in mutts. So basically you are left to try to collect statistical data (and opinions) about heritable disease in mixed breeds from the people who train or treat these dogs for a living; typically dog trainers, groomers and veterinarians.
These people are exposed to volumes dogs from a large cross section of breeds. I tend to value their opinion and observations over the average pet owner, who usually have a personal bias and a limited exposure to a variety of different breeds over their lifetime. Many of the people I know who work in animal professions will talk about the growing rate of genetic-related diseases in mixed breeds.
Testy1 wrote:
For example, a vast majority of Dalmatians are deaf due to inbreeding (thanks 101 Dalmatians), but I doubt you will find many Dalmatian/mix breeds that are deaf. Specialization has to bring certain genetic traits to the forefront, good or bad.
Congenital deafness has been reported for approximately 80 breeds and the list continues to grow. I am not a vet or a geneticist, but I know it is not fully understood what causes deafness in certain breeds. They know that sometimes it’s linked (somehow) to the merle gene and pigmentation (Specifically, white). Dalmatians are born totally white. So are ACDs. It’s no surprise that deafness plagues my breed too. http://www.offa.org/deafgeninfo.html
Deaf mixed breeds that have Dalmatian, ACD, or one of the other many breeds prone to deafness or that carry the merle gene can be deaf and/or produce deaf puppies. It’s a very, very complex issue and I’ve personally known breeders, my own included, who’ve had to deal with the heartache of producing a deaf puppy in spite of a very carefully planned breeding with fully tested breeding pairs.
Deafness is really not as simple as being the result of too much “inbreeding” but can be the result when untested breeding pairs are repeatedly bred and the untested offspring are not sold with a spay or neuter contract.
Unfortunately, most inherited traits, including inherited diseases, are probably polygenic. http://www.upei.ca/cidd/howare.htm#ar They have a complex mode of inheritance influenced by multiple gene pairs. To date, no DNA tests have been developed to identify the specific combination of mutant genes responsible for any polygenic disorders. Therefore, decisions regarding a dog’s suitability for breeding purposes rely on phenotypic evaluations.
The complexity of polygenic traits results in a wide range of expression, from least to most desirable. It is the reason why two dogs of ideal conformation may produce offspring less than ideal, and the reason why the mating of two dogs that are phenotypically normal for a disease may produce affected offspring. When dealing with genetic unknowns, it is difficult to control the incidence of a polygenic disease.
The same can be said for glaucoma; Many small mixed breeds develop glaucoma because they inherited it from one of the breeds in their gene pool (Terrier is often one of the breeds) that are prone to it. PRA is another devastating eye disease that my breed is fighting. The Canine Eye Registry Foundation (CERF) reports that PRA affects several other breeds and mixed breeds as well. http://www.vmdb.org/july99.html#dx
The same can be said for seizures, which are common in many purebreds as well as mixed breeds that have an assortment of affected breed genes in them. "Epilepsy is found in all breeds and mixed breeds of dogs. Belgian Tervueren are listed among the breeds for which a genetic factor is either proved or highly suspected. Other breeds so listed include the Beagle, Dachshund, German Shepherd Dog, (Alsatian), and Keeshond.
A high incidence of seizure disorders is also found in Boxers, Cocker Spaniels, Collies, Golden Retrievers, Irish Setters, Labrador Retrievers, Miniature Schnauzers, Poodles, Saint Bernards, Siberian Huskies, and Wire-Haired Terriers. (Oliver, Seizures). The prevalence of epilepsy in the general dog population has been estimated at .5 to 5.7%. (Koestner, Cunningham)." http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/FAQ.html
And cardiomyopathy. http://www.southpaws.com/topics/canine-dcm.html
And Sebaceous Adenitis. http://www.gsdhelp.info/allergies/sebaceous.html
And don’t even get me started on hip and elbow dysplasia, which continues to cripple dogs across all sectors.
Bottom line, one of the reasons why veterinary care has become so expensive is because more and more pets are requiring medical care … mixed breeds included. So if I were to engage in a discussion about the pros of choosing a purebred over a mixed breed, one of my comments would be to point out that the genetic history of a purebred can sometimes be traced, breeding pairs carefully tested and (hopefully) a better opportunity to obtain a dog that has been carefully bred away from certain heritable diseases. You don’t have those options when you get a mixed breed.
Naturally, there are always exceptions, like the breeder who doesn’t bother to test for breed-specific genetic markers or the dog that develops something (like deafness) in spite of ethical breeding practices. I’ve owned dogs from both sides of that coin. So health databases can play a significant role. As the database is populated, incorporating information not only on the parent’s phenotype into the breeding decision, but phenotypic information from close relatives such as siblings, half siblings, aunts, uncles, grand-sires, and grand-dams becomes possible. This allows breeders to make a more accurate assumption regarding the potential sire and dam’s genotype, and allows them to apply greater selective pressure to produce desired and avoid undesirable traits.
Testy1 wrote:
Doesn’t that leave only guarding and fighting breeds?
There is no such thing as a “fighting” or “guarding” group or breed, but several breeds were bred with personal protection in mind. In addition, dogs from many breeds are often used in areas of service or in ways they were not originally intended. The German Shepherd is typically trained as a police, protection or guard dog, but it actually comes from the Herding group. The traits that make the GS so well suited for those jobs stem from the intense prey drive and intelligence of the herding breeds. The Golden Retriever is bird dog from the Sporting group, but it’s keen sense of smell and love of people make them highly suited for search and rescue or as guide/therapy dogs. Humans have learned to exploit certain heritable traits and temperament of some breeds to our advantage.
Cappy
[/quote]
Well thought out post Cappy, and I really can’t argue your points. I do know that my vet has told me she see’s much fewer problems in mixed breeds, but this could also be attributed to her own personal bias.
[quote]Capacity wrote:
Himora22 wrote:
There are organizations for mixed breeds. These are not registries, but mixed breed clubs. Many of the clubs try to promote education (training, health, sterilization, etc.) while allowing mixed breeds to compete. I think that’s a very worthy cause. One of the best things about competition is the increased time spent training and working with the dog. That’s a win-win situation no matter what the outcome.
Cappy
[/quote]
Bet your boodts they have their own clubs and org’s.
Many mixed breeds have become “designer dogs” that command great prices. Many are 1K and up. They are combined desirable traits, such as good natured temperament of the Lab and Golden with non-shedding coat and trainability of the Poodle. Hence, the labra-doodle and golden-doodle. Both wonderful (and expensive) new breeds. The cocka-poo, peeka-poo, shih-poo, malte-poo all share the poo’s non-shedding coat. Obviously a highly sought after trait.
[quote]ether_bunny wrote:
silverblood wrote:
Proud owner of a Miniature Blue Merle Australian Shepherd. These dogs are not for everyone.
Now there’s a brave man. Australian shepherds, like any cattle dog, are probably the worst dog to have around children, because of their herding behavior. In contrast to sheepdogs, like border collies, which I’ve gotta say, if you’ve got small children and at least 50 acres, are one of the best dogs for that mix. Both sorts of dog will herd your children, actually, with the OCD nature of border collies, will herd your children, squirrels, song birds, power tools, lawn gnomes–its one of those things that has to be seen to appreciated.
nywho, sheep dogs are used to their subjects being afraid of them, so they’ll herd from the front and try and stare down the sheep. Cattle dogs, though, herd from the back, where the cow can’t try and gore them–and they move them by nipping their heels. Unfortunately, that nipping behavior applies to everything else in their lives. Only dogs I’ve ever wanted to strangle out of annoyance.
[/quote]
Yeah, one of my good friends has 2 whippets and 2 Aussies. And yes, the Aussies would try to herd everything, including the other dogs. The funniest thing was when the 2 Aussies would try to herd each other.
I would bring over my puppy and let him play with one of the whippets, who was also a puppy and the Aussie would try to stay in between them the whole time to keep them from playing.
Ever heard of Rat Terriers? I love these dogs and there are some great rescue organizations out there including http://newrattitude.org
[quote]IronWarrior24 wrote:
Get one of these.[/quote]
sister has one.
cute thing,very yappy
very high strung
and as a pup he ate everyting could wrap his lips around.
but over all besides the high maintainence of having a hyper dog untill he grew into himslef,he is a great dog I might say
Just want to thank the other Pit Bull owners for stepping in here and helping show that the breed is not what the media portrays it to be.
My three pits:
Bailey, Remy, and Alize. What the hell!?! They’re on my bed!!!
They all look great! I really like the red-nose look, I think my next pit will be a red nose. 
[quote]Nich wrote:
IronWarrior24 wrote:
Get one of these.
sister has one.
cute thing,very yappy
very high strung
and as a pup he ate everyting could wrap his lips around.
but over all besides the high maintainence of having a hyper dog untill he grew into himslef,he is a great dog I might say[/quote]
You are right. They definitely are not for someone who doesn’t want to put in a lot of time for training, exercise, etc.