90% of Children with Down Syndrome are Aborted

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]ephrem wrote:

That’s not entirely true, is it? Even among mammals often only the Alpha Male gets to mate and procreate. Perhaps his lieutenant sneaks-in a puppy or two, but that’s it. Ofcourse I can only speak from a male perspective but I’ve not met many men who had the same kind of wish to father children like most women do.

I have no children. I know four women in their forties without children [by choice], so the genetic drive to procreate isn’t as strong in everyone. You’ll have to take a different perspective on these matters into account even if you yourself experience a strong drive to procreate.

It’s a little late for that seeing they had children already. But you raise an interesting moral dilemma: my sister is crazy. She has a history of all kinds of abuse and found some kind of peace with the Jehova’s Witnesses. Anyway, she has a 18 year old daughter.

The poor thing didn’t stand a chance, tbh. The girl was placed, by child services, in a home, rebelled, and now she’s turned 18 has to face a judge for something I can’t care to find out. Do I think this kid would’ve been better off not being born?

Perhaps. If she isn’t able to find peace eventually she’ll live a life that her mother lived. One of misery and suffering. She won’t know what it means to be happy, what it means to be at peace with yourself, how it feels to be loved or how it feels to love. All she has to look forward to is to continue the vicious cycle started started a long, long time ago.

She’s still very young though so perhaps things work-out for her. But if I look within my larger family I wonder if she’ll find the strength.
[/quote]
Are you really asserting that it might have been better if your niece was never born? People could look at you and say the samethings…“Poor chap, doesn’t get the government services he needs to lead a happy and meaningful life. Perhaps it would have been better if he weren’t even born!”
Maybe this is your chance to help your niece? Or maybe you don’t care. Either way I can’t see how it translates to it’d be better if she wasn’t born.
I don’t have a moral dilemma, you guys do.

[quote]

If the defect is found early enough, and if the defect is large enough, I’d want to abort the pregnancy. Life is hard enough without the stress and worry of a special-needs child. I’d be sad and I’d mourn the loss of the child that never was but still abort it.[/quote]

Wowzers! That’s really a sad statement about you E.
Why would you morn or be sad about it, by the way?

142

[quote]niksamaras wrote:
To all those that disagree with 90% of people: STOP DOING WHAT YOUR RELIGION IS TELLING YOU IS RIGHT TO DO!

There, I am being a dick and making a generalization because I am tired of trying to explain something that is TOO FUCKING OBVIOUS to 90% of people to other 10% that can’t understanding. I feel like I am trying to teach a monkey algebra.[/quote]

It’s not about religion you TWAT…it’s about basic human compassion and love.

That’s what’s great about atheists…just like the race baiters (who play the race card on FUCKING EVERY ARGUMENT) it’s easy to blame everything on religion, when basic human love and respect are the real reason for this argument.

143

No, I’m not saying that. She might be able to turn things around and make a happy life for herself. She does not necessarily have to follow in her mother’s footsteps, eventhough her mother did.

Aside from the fact that I’ve never met someone who was interested in having children with me, what I never wanted to do was to perpetuate the cycle of misery that emanated from my parent’s respective families by having children.

Most of us are bound to make the same mistakes our parents made and burden our children with trauma and frustration. I did not have a happy childhood you see. So by not having children, in my mind, I’ve done all I could to stop that vicious cycle.

Because of that I’d rather prevent a life of misery from the onset [if it was me that had to make that choice].

If the child was planned or at least wanted and that child would not come to be due to this I’d be sad. I’m not a total monster you know.

144

[quote]Think tank fish wrote:
Where do you draw the line? A lot of peoples genes will let them down at some point in their life.

What if hawkings parents had his genes screened and aborted due to a predisposition to develop MND.

Genetic variation is the biggest gift humanity has!

Gene therapy for genetic disorders is the way forward for the treatment. But that does not eliminate genetic variation.

You cannot have the sweet without the sour![/quote]

This ^^^^^

Wow…

145

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:
To all those that disagree with 90% of people: STOP DOING WHAT YOUR RELIGION IS TELLING YOU IS RIGHT TO DO!

There, I am being a dick and making a generalization because I am tired of trying to explain something that is TOO FUCKING OBVIOUS to 90% of people to other 10% that can’t understanding. I feel like I am trying to teach a monkey algebra.[/quote]

It’s not about religion you TWAT…it’s about basic human compassion and love.

That’s what’s great about atheists…just like the race baiters (who play the race card on FUCKING EVERY ARGUMENT) it’s easy to blame everything on religion, when basic human love and respect are the real reason for this argument.[/quote]

I am not an atheist. Sorry.

EDIT: Basic human love? Well, since 90% is against your opinion, I don’t believe it’s basic at all.

146

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:
To all those that disagree with 90% of people: STOP DOING WHAT YOUR RELIGION IS TELLING YOU IS RIGHT TO DO!

There, I am being a dick and making a generalization because I am tired of trying to explain something that is TOO FUCKING OBVIOUS to 90% of people to other 10% that can’t understanding. I feel like I am trying to teach a monkey algebra.[/quote]

It’s not about religion you TWAT…it’s about basic human compassion and love.

That’s what’s great about atheists…just like the race baiters (who play the race card on FUCKING EVERY ARGUMENT) it’s easy to blame everything on religion, when basic human love and respect are the real reason for this argument.[/quote]

I am not an atheist. Sorry.

EDIT: Basic human love? Well, since 90% is against your opinion, I don’t believe it’s basic at all.[/quote]

90% of the women pregnant with down babies taking the easy way out does not mean 90% of people share your opinion. That’s just plane dumb. First, we are only talking about a very very small % of the population, not 90% of it, and secondly, people do tons of things they don’t believe are right. Killing their child doesn’t mean they don’t know it’s wrong.

147

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:
To all those that disagree with 90% of people: STOP DOING WHAT YOUR RELIGION IS TELLING YOU IS RIGHT TO DO!

There, I am being a dick and making a generalization because I am tired of trying to explain something that is TOO FUCKING OBVIOUS to 90% of people to other 10% that can’t understanding. I feel like I am trying to teach a monkey algebra.[/quote]

It’s not about religion you TWAT…it’s about basic human compassion and love.

That’s what’s great about atheists…just like the race baiters (who play the race card on FUCKING EVERY ARGUMENT) it’s easy to blame everything on religion, when basic human love and respect are the real reason for this argument.[/quote]

I am not an atheist. Sorry.

EDIT: Basic human love? Well, since 90% is against your opinion, I don’t believe it’s basic at all.[/quote]

90% of the women pregnant with down babies taking the easy way out does not mean 90% of people share your opinion. That’s just plane dumb. First, we are only talking about a very very small % of the population, not 90% of it, and secondly, people do tons of things they don’t believe are right. Killing their child doesn’t mean they don’t know it’s wrong.[/quote]

Ok, are we talking here about actions and facts, or what people generally think? Because I don’t a rats ass what someone thinks. Actions matters.

148

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]niksamaras wrote:
To all those that disagree with 90% of people: STOP DOING WHAT YOUR RELIGION IS TELLING YOU IS RIGHT TO DO!

There, I am being a dick and making a generalization because I am tired of trying to explain something that is TOO FUCKING OBVIOUS to 90% of people to other 10% that can’t understanding. I feel like I am trying to teach a monkey algebra.[/quote]

It’s not about religion you TWAT…it’s about basic human compassion and love.

That’s what’s great about atheists…just like the race baiters (who play the race card on FUCKING EVERY ARGUMENT) it’s easy to blame everything on religion, when basic human love and respect are the real reason for this argument.[/quote]

I am not an atheist. Sorry.

EDIT: Basic human love? Well, since 90% is against your opinion, I don’t believe it’s basic at all.[/quote]

90% of the women pregnant with down babies taking the easy way out does not mean 90% of people share your opinion. That’s just plane dumb. First, we are only talking about a very very small % of the population, not 90% of it, and secondly, people do tons of things they don’t believe are right. Killing their child doesn’t mean they don’t know it’s wrong.[/quote]

Ok, are we talking here about actions and facts, or what people generally think? Because I don’t a rats ass what someone thinks. Actions matters.[/quote]

In which case, the number of people who haven’t aborted an down syndrome baby win in the biggest landslide ever.

149

[quote]ephrem wrote:

No, I’m not saying that. She might be able to turn things around and make a happy life for herself. She does not necessarily have to follow in her mother’s footsteps, eventhough her mother did.

Aside from the fact that I’ve never met someone who was interested in having children with me, what I never wanted to do was to perpetuate the cycle of misery that emanated from my parent’s respective families by having children.

Most of us are bound to make the same mistakes our parents made and burden our children with trauma and frustration. I did not have a happy childhood you see. So by not having children, in my mind, I’ve done all I could to stop that vicious cycle.

Because of that I’d rather prevent a life of misery from the onset [if it was me that had to make that choice].
[/quote]
I am nothing like my parents. You’re not bound to be like them if you don’t want to be. But it’s fine with me if you don’t want kids at all. That’s your choice and you are entitled to it.

[quote]

If the child was planned or at least wanted and that child would not come to be due to this I’d be sad. I’m not a total monster you know.[/quote]

It’s a murky water your treading their. This is the even darker side of a dark action of abortion. It’s one thing to not think that abortion is murder, at least your not deliberately trying to terminate a human life. But if the child is determined to be downs or something else, you already know it’s a child and your choosing to take it out because it’s not perfect.

I don’t think you can logically reconcile that person with a genetic defect isn’t a person but just a blob with a genetic defect that will suddenly become human when it touches air. They only way you could be sad or upset about it in any way is because it’s wrong and you know it. If it’s not wrong, there is nothing to be upset about. It’s just another thing, like having a wart removed.

150

[quote]pat wrote:

It’s a murky water your treading their. This is the even darker side of a dark action of abortion. It’s one thing to not think that abortion is murder, at least your not deliberately trying to terminate a human life. But if the child is determined to be downs or something else, you already know it’s a child and your choosing to take it out because it’s not perfect.

I don’t think you can logically reconcile that person with a genetic defect isn’t a person but just a blob with a genetic defect that will suddenly become human when it touches air. They only way you could be sad or upset about it in any way is because it’s wrong and you know it. If it’s not wrong, there is nothing to be upset about. It’s just another thing, like having a wart removed.[/quote]

To be honest pat, I’ve not seen the OP so I don’t know at what stage of the pregnancy Down’s syndrome can be assertained with 100% certainty.

If that moment is way past 21 weeks I would not abort but accept that fact as is and make the best of it.

151

[quote]ephrem wrote:

No, I’m not saying that. She might be able to turn things around and make a happy life for herself. She does not necessarily have to follow in her mother’s footsteps, eventhough her mother did.
[/quote]

And THIS is the point.

Ephrem my friend, you could not have crystallized your opposition’s argument better if you were trying to parody it.

I’ve got no beef with your decision not to have children in order to avoid suffering. But once the deed is done, at least give the kid a fighting chance. If you don’t think your niece would be better being smothered with a pillow as she sleeps, then I can’t see how you can justify the other. Not looking to start up that argument with you again, because I know neither of us are budging, but can you at least see this?

152

[quote]pat wrote:

It’s a murky water your treading their. This is the even darker side of a dark action of abortion. It’s one thing to not think that abortion is murder, at least your not deliberately trying to terminate a human life. But if the child is determined to be downs or something else, you already know it’s a child and your choosing to take it out because it’s not perfect.

I don’t think you can logically reconcile that person with a genetic defect isn’t a person but just a blob with a genetic defect that will suddenly become human when it touches air. They only way you could be sad or upset about it in any way is because it’s wrong and you know it. If it’s not wrong, there is nothing to be upset about. It’s just another thing, like having a wart removed.[/quote]

Excellent post, Pat.

I’d like to see some of those arguing the other side address these specific points above. My guess is that they will not be able to do so without a lot of squirming and word-redefining.

154

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

No, I’m not saying that. She might be able to turn things around and make a happy life for herself. She does not necessarily have to follow in her mother’s footsteps, eventhough her mother did.
[/quote]

And THIS is the point.

Ephrem my friend, you could not have crystallized your opposition’s argument better if you were trying to parody it.

I’ve got no beef with your decision not to have children in order to avoid suffering. But once the deed is done, at least give the kid a fighting chance. If you don’t think your niece would be better being smothered with a pillow as she sleeps, then I can’t see how you can justify the other. Not looking to start up that argument with you again, because I know neither of us are budging, but can you at least see this?
[/quote]

Ofcourse I can see your point Cortes, but rest assured; if I ever get a woman pregnant and during week 15 of the pregnancy tests showed that the fetus would live but live with a debilitating physical problem I’d would rather abort and try again.

155

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

It’s a murky water your treading their. This is the even darker side of a dark action of abortion. It’s one thing to not think that abortion is murder, at least your not deliberately trying to terminate a human life. But if the child is determined to be downs or something else, you already know it’s a child and your choosing to take it out because it’s not perfect.

I don’t think you can logically reconcile that person with a genetic defect isn’t a person but just a blob with a genetic defect that will suddenly become human when it touches air. They only way you could be sad or upset about it in any way is because it’s wrong and you know it. If it’s not wrong, there is nothing to be upset about. It’s just another thing, like having a wart removed.[/quote]

Excellent post, Pat.

I’d like to see some of those arguing the other side address these specific points above. My guess is that they will not be able to do so without a lot of squirming and word-redefining. [/quote]

If that moment (of discovery) is way past 21 weeks I would not abort but accept that fact as is and make the best of it.

156

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

No, I’m not saying that. She might be able to turn things around and make a happy life for herself. She does not necessarily have to follow in her mother’s footsteps, eventhough her mother did.
[/quote]

And THIS is the point.

Ephrem my friend, you could not have crystallized your opposition’s argument better if you were trying to parody it.

I’ve got no beef with your decision not to have children in order to avoid suffering. But once the deed is done, at least give the kid a fighting chance. If you don’t think your niece would be better being smothered with a pillow as she sleeps, then I can’t see how you can justify the other. Not looking to start up that argument with you again, because I know neither of us are budging, but can you at least see this?
[/quote]

Ofcourse I can see your point Cortes, but rest assured; if I ever get a woman pregnant and during week 15 of the pregnancy tests showed that the fetus would live but live with a debilitating physical problem I’d would rather abort and try again.
[/quote]

Given your past very honest explanation of your beliefs (roughly, and feel free to correct me, that we, the human race, amount to basically no more than a tiny, insignificant speck of organic matter that turned out to develop self-awareness, and that there exists not spirit, nor God, nor afterlife nor inherent morality, I find this statement and the one below it both reasonable and ridiculous.

If we don’t matter, why does it matter if it’s week 5 or 15 or 35?

I know your answer, of course, as we’ve been here before, and although it is as unfathomable to me as my reasoning certainly must be to you, it is honest, and I do respect that. Most on this board are not willing to admit what I’m almost certain you are about to say.

157

If you define a 15-week old zygote as equal to a 39 week old unborn baby you’d have trouble understanding my position.

To me they are not equal, and yes we’ve been over this countless times.

158

[quote]ephrem wrote:
If you define a 15-week old zygote as equal to a 39 week old unborn baby you’d have trouble understanding my position.

To me they are not equal, and yes we’ve been over this countless times.[/quote]

Unfathomable implies something similar to but not the same as a failure to understand. I can understand your explanation perfectly.

But, if you don’t mind, please explain to me the difference between a 15 week old zygote and a 39 week old unborn baby.

My position is quite simple: They are one in the same organism. And defining the organism in any other way leads us down a very slippery slope with a very ugly terminus.

Interestingly, that arbitrary line you are describing, and the laws that define it, and the millions of human lives (because that’s just what they are) that are terminated because of decisions such as this, all of this is decided by someone with no skin in the game, or by someone who does, but can only profit from the decision.

And all of the moral outrage that side has been able to muster in this thread so far has been directed at the parents of a little boy who took a picture of him holding a sign they wrote that suggests other parents in the same situation not kill their own children out of convenience.

Oh how exploitative.

Oh the humanity.

159

[quote]Cortes wrote:

But, if you don’t mind, please explain to me the difference between a 15 week old zygote and a 39 week old unborn baby.

[/quote]

Must we go over this again? Physically there’s a big difference between a 15 week old zygote and a 39 week old unborn. A brain for instance, awareness and responsiveness to stimuli that go beyond mere reflexes.

I’ll leave it at that Cortes. You already know what my opinion and ideas are.

160

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

But, if you don’t mind, please explain to me the difference between a 15 week old zygote and a 39 week old unborn baby.

[/quote]

Must we go over this again? Physically there’s a big difference between a 15 week old zygote and a 39 week old unborn. A brain for instance, awareness and responsiveness to stimuli that go beyond mere reflexes.

I’ll leave it at that Cortes. You already know what my opinion and ideas are.[/quote]

I do.

I’m just challenging the arbitrary lines you draw. I understand if you don’t feel like pursuing it, as we’ve been through it in all kinds of different forms before. But I appreciate your bringing it up, as I’d like to see some of the other members answer these last few challenges.

How about this:

Let’s say 15 weeks is around where we draw the line, and talk once again about “pregnancy reduction” (for this case, I use the term to describe when a mother chooses, for non-health related reasons, to abort only one child from a set of otherwise healthy twins).

So, up to around 15 weeks, this is totally okay, right? Please explain why or why not.