Everything you choose to do makes you feel good in some way. You might do bodybuilding because, for example, it feels good to get some natural struggling going on, because it makes you look good in the mirror and that makes you feel good and because you enjoy being a part of something special not everyone is into. You know it’s healthy, chicks dig…
There is nothing you do that won’t benefit some urge in you. You go to work because of the money which you like for obvious reasons, you donate to charity because you feel good about it. You are willing to die for your loved ones because you feel it is an honorable thing to do, and, ultimately, you like the thought of doing something honorable because you feel compassion towards your own species.
And finally, you argue over the Internet because of learning and getting intellectual stimulus which give you feelings of worthiness in this world. A good feeling.
Thanks again for the sparring and forcing me to become more precise. Hope I made myself clearer there ^.
The brain is no longer functional, in fact many times the body can NOT be supported by the brain. There is NO “consciousness of” any sort in many different levels of coma!
[quote]supa power wrote:
A brain injury does not = no brain. They still have consciousness of some sort.[/quote]
[quote]Raw Finn wrote:<<< How would we have moral that is based on something else than this, if not for a god?[/quote]That’s a rather splendid question there skippy. I have the answer ya know.
Please tell me what society in the world allows ANY of the acts to be a good and beneficial act in their society.
[quote]Raw Finn wrote:
[RANT] . . . . Abortion, murder, theft, rape, whatever cannot be said to be right or wrong with any kind of authority. This is impossible. Sure there are laws, sure there is the society, but just as surely there are us with our opinions solely derived from our feelings. . . .[/quote]
RF - I have read your posts and I still fail to see how you can justify abortion. Use simple biology to prove to me that unborn are NOT alive. Do this for me and I will argue your side of this case to everyone I can.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
The brain is no longer functional, in fact many times the body can NOT be supported by the brain. There is NO “consciousness of” any sort in many different levels of coma!
[quote]supa power wrote:
A brain injury does not = no brain. They still have consciousness of some sort.[/quote]
[/quote]
How do you know that?? The brain can still work when a person has a near death experience, despite all vital signs showing no signs of life. A brain injury still does not = no brain.
I know this better than you, that is for sure. Take a look at my AVI <---- I was in a motorcycle wreck and in a coma for six weeks! My brain was swollen and every Dr. that saw me told my family I was going to die!! My brain had ZERO function for the first ~4 weeks!! You are wrong to say the brain still has function. No brain function when I was 25, but I am alive today, even by your standards!
Prove the embryo does not have the cells that make up the brain. You have an impossible claim to defend. Not even Dr.'s can explain how or why the cells go to predetermined portions of the embryo, such as the brain, and develop in the new organs of the person.
[quote]supa power wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
The brain is no longer functional, in fact many times the body can NOT be supported by the brain. There is NO “consciousness of” any sort in many different levels of coma!
[quote]supa power wrote:
A brain injury does not = no brain. They still have consciousness of some sort.[/quote]
[/quote]
How do you know that?? The brain can still work when a person has a near death experience, despite all vital signs showing no signs of life. A brain injury still does not = no brain.
[/quote]
[quote]Raw Finn wrote:<<< How would we have moral that is based on something else than this, if not for a god?[/quote]That’s a rather splendid question there skippy. I have the answer ya know.
[/quote]
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
RF - I have read your posts and I still fail to see how you can justify abortion. Use simple biology to prove to me that unborn are NOT alive. Do this for me and I will argue your side of this case to everyone I can.[/quote]
People have different hormonal profiles. Some people give a damn more. It really just comes down to that I don’t feel as bad about abortion as you do. Yeah, one day I might face this situation and then care more. But as I said I believe people only wants the survival of themselves and those who they care about. For some those other people may consist of everyone. These feelings of caring are based on survival of the species. Hormonal levels vary → so feelings vary → so people’s actions and thoughts vary. Moral is fluid.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
RF - I have read your posts and I still fail to see how you can justify abortion. Use simple biology to prove to me that unborn are NOT alive. Do this for me and I will argue your side of this case to everyone I can.[/quote]
People have different hormonal profiles. Some people give a damn more. It really just comes down to that I don’t feel as bad about abortion as you do. Yeah, one day I might face this situation and then care more. But as I said I believe people only wants the survival of themselves and those who they care about. For some those other people may consist of everyone. These feelings of caring are based on survival of the species. Hormonal levels vary → so feelings vary → so people’s actions and thoughts vary. Moral is fluid.[/quote]
So, if you ‘feel’ like raping a child, that’s ok? What if it were socially acceptable, would it be ok? What about the kid?
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I know this better than you, that is for sure. Take a look at my AVI <---- I was in a motorcycle wreck and in a coma for six weeks! My brain was swollen and every Dr. that saw me told my family I was going to die!! My brain had ZERO function for the first ~4 weeks!! You are wrong to say the brain still has function. No brain function when I was 25, but I am alive today, even by your standards!
Prove the embryo does not have the cells that make up the brain. You have an impossible claim to defend. Not even Dr.'s can explain how or why the cells go to predetermined portions of the embryo, such as the brain, and develop in the new organs of the person.
[quote]supa power wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
The brain is no longer functional, in fact many times the body can NOT be supported by the brain. There is NO “consciousness of” any sort in many different levels of coma!
[quote]supa power wrote:
A brain injury does not = no brain. They still have consciousness of some sort.[/quote]
[/quote]
How do you know that?? The brain can still work when a person has a near death experience, despite all vital signs showing no signs of life. A brain injury still does not = no brain.
[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
The brain is no longer functional, in fact many times the body can NOT be supported by the brain. There is NO “consciousness of” any sort in many different levels of coma!
[quote]supa power wrote:
A brain injury does not = no brain. They still have consciousness of some sort.[/quote]
[/quote]
How do you know that?? The brain can still work when a person has a near death experience, despite all vital signs showing no signs of life. A brain injury still does not = no brain.
[/quote]
You cannot know what does and does not posses consciousness.
[quote]Raw Finn wrote:
Everything you choose to do makes you feel good in some way. You might do bodybuilding because, for example, it feels good to get some natural struggling going on, because it makes you look good in the mirror and that makes you feel good and because you enjoy being a part of something special not everyone is into. You know it’s healthy, chicks dig…
There is nothing you do that won’t benefit some urge in you. You go to work because of the money which you like for obvious reasons, you donate to charity because you feel good about it. You are willing to die for your loved ones because you feel it is an honorable thing to do, and, ultimately, you like the thought of doing something honorable because you feel compassion towards your own species.
And finally, you argue over the Internet because of learning and getting intellectual stimulus which give you feelings of worthiness in this world. A good feeling.
Thanks again for the sparring and forcing me to become more precise. Hope I made myself clearer there ^.[/quote]
Eh, it’s a weak grasp, but a grasp of some sort. You’re seeking to explain the entire world by a single human drive which is the pursuit of pleasure or sensation. It’s not the only thing that drives human behavior, but it is a powerful drive. What it does not control is morality. Morality is a higher level abstract that is not effected by human drives, limitations or frailties. Things are what they are, despite what you think, not because of what you think.
[quote]pat wrote:
So, if you ‘feel’ like raping a child, that’s ok? What if it were socially acceptable, would it be ok? What about the kid?[/quote]
Our brain commands what we do. We all have a different brain. I guess it follows the Bell curve like many things. So at one extreme there are people whose moral doesn’t make them think it would be bad to rape. Like I have said, moral is individual. I don’t think you can claim absolute moral about anything. It very is often about your survival and well-being against other people’s needs.
If it were socially acceptable it would merely mean that many people’s brain would be wired in a way that they accept raping a child (or the ones in power would make sure that is the consensus).
What about the kid? - The kid would probably not like to be raped but the rapist would not care. Again, individual needs versus group needs. The intensity of each varies in us individually and at different times, spaces, situations, and depends on your immediate experiences before, on the whole of your experiences etc. etc. etc.
Morality is, by definition, the respect for and obedience to the rules of right conduct.
Forget about “right conduct” for a moment.
Let’s focus ourselves on this “rules” thing.
Not everything can become a rule. A rule requires some kind of universality and systematicity.
It’s something you do (or don’t do) each time you are in a specific situation.
If X, then (i do or don’t do) Y.
Ie : Each time X, then (i do or don’t do) Y.
In other words, a “do” or “don’t do” imperative need to be universalizable.
If it’s not, then it can not become a rule.
And if it can not become a rule, then it has nothing to do with morality.
No matter our feelings and opinions.
What it means is that, even if the actual definition of “good” may be relative, the (negative) definition of “not good” is not.
Ie : Evil is absolute.
We can know with an absolute certainty (not think, not feel, not believe, but actually know) that some things are definetely immoral.
And we are not speaking about Nazi-like evil here.
But very “simple” things.
“Lie”, “Cheat” “rape your child” can not become universal imperatives.
Therefore, no morality will ever be derived from these imperatives.
[quote]pat wrote:
So, if you ‘feel’ like raping a child, that’s ok? What if it were socially acceptable, would it be ok? What about the kid?[/quote]
Our brain commands what we do. We all have a different brain. I guess it follows the Bell curve like many things. So at one extreme there are people whose moral doesn’t make them think it would be bad to rape. Like I have said, moral is individual. I don’t think you can claim absolute moral about anything. It very is often about your survival and well-being against other people’s needs.
If it were socially acceptable it would merely mean that many people’s brain would be wired in a way that they accept raping a child (or the ones in power would make sure that is the consensus).
What about the kid? - The kid would probably not like to be raped but the rapist would not care. Again, individual needs versus group needs. The intensity of each varies in us individually and at different times, spaces, situations, and depends on your immediate experiences before, on the whole of your experiences etc. etc. etc.[/quote]
Uh, I didn’t ask what people thought. I am guessing a rapist thinks his rape is a right dandy idea. I am asking is it right? Is it a morally correct thing to do?
[quote]pat wrote:
Morality is a higher level abstract that is not effected by human drives, limitations or frailties. Things are what they are, despite what you think, not because of what you think.[/quote]
I have explained my take on what is the basis of morality. So what do you think is the basis of it?
[quote]pat wrote:
Morality is a higher level abstract that is not effected by human drives, limitations or frailties. Things are what they are, despite what you think, not because of what you think.[/quote]
I have explained my take on what is the basis of morality. So what do you think is the basis of it?[/quote]
Well first of all, it’s abstract, metaphysical, i.e. it materially does not exist. Morality is an act or determination of will to either achieve good or achieve evil.
You can say ‘Oh it’s a brain chemical, or a feeling or a emotion.’ but it’s not. You cannot taste good. You cannot sense it in anyway. Yet good exists. You cannot sense evil in anyway but evil clearly exists.
I bring up the example of child rape particularly on the grounds that it is intrinsically evil, and it is not defensible in anyway. It’s a perfect illustration as to why moral relativity is wrong. No matter how you feel about it, or what the consensus is, it’s evil.
Same with slavery, it doesn’t matter how common or accepted it was, it is wrong and always will be.
