Neurobiology of consciousness: an overview
or
There’s loads more!
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Parts aren’t people, people are made of parts. Like a brain for instance. I don’t care if you want to chop your arm off, I do care if you want to kill your kid.
The fetus is a complete human, in developement, just as much as born human, just further along. Newborns are still pretty useless people. Hell, they can’t even roll over, how useless can you be? All they do is suck, sleep and grab.[/quote]
No brain = not people.[/quote]
Thats funny, I was just about to post EXACTLY THIS in the “using human embryos in stem cell research” thread but you beat me to it.
The brain more or less IS the person.
[quote]supa power wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Parts aren’t people, people are made of parts. Like a brain for instance. I don’t care if you want to chop your arm off, I do care if you want to kill your kid.
The fetus is a complete human, in developement, just as much as born human, just further along. Newborns are still pretty useless people. Hell, they can’t even roll over, how useless can you be? All they do is suck, sleep and grab.[/quote]
No brain = not people.[/quote]
Thats funny, I was just about to post EXACTLY THIS in the “using human embryos in stem cell research” thread but you beat me to it.
The brain more or less IS the person.[/quote]
That much is obvious to us, but to the religiously inclined it’s a different matter. They believe in something that isn’t tied to the body by vital parts, fully depending on its functionality.
I’d like for them to prove that instead.
As an embryo the individual human’s life cycle has already begun. Arguing that you managed to kill it before what normally would occur, development of the brain, doesn’t change that fact the a human individual has been murdered. Supa Power as an adult is the same individual organism that was an embryo. It is the death, the murder, that robs the individual of the natural and inevitable development of the brain.
It is the ultimate perversion of ‘human rights.’
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Neurobiology of consciousness: an overview
or
There’s loads more![/quote]
Hmmm, weird. Neither one of these links stated that the presence of a brain is the equivalent of human life. I don’t disagree that the human brain is where we interact with consciousness. That it defines consciousness? That I doubt. We cannot know if rocks are conscious, after all they move and chance and adapt to their environments, pretty much like every other thing.
Nevertheless, neither article authoritatively states that a fully developed brain is when an organism becomes human. My dog has a brain, it’s not human.
This theory of yours necessarily posits that all developing organisms prior to fully developing a brain, can be anything and that if human, that same human can be replicated if terminated prior to developing a fully functional brain.
[quote]supa power wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Parts aren’t people, people are made of parts. Like a brain for instance. I don’t care if you want to chop your arm off, I do care if you want to kill your kid.
The fetus is a complete human, in developement, just as much as born human, just further along. Newborns are still pretty useless people. Hell, they can’t even roll over, how useless can you be? All they do is suck, sleep and grab.[/quote]
No brain = not people.[/quote]
Thats funny, I was just about to post EXACTLY THIS in the “using human embryos in stem cell research” thread but you beat me to it.
The brain more or less IS the person.[/quote]
Really? All this time I thought my dog and my guinea pigs were animals, one canine the other rodent, but damn they have brains. They’ve been human all this time…I better feed them then.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]supa power wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Parts aren’t people, people are made of parts. Like a brain for instance. I don’t care if you want to chop your arm off, I do care if you want to kill your kid.
The fetus is a complete human, in developement, just as much as born human, just further along. Newborns are still pretty useless people. Hell, they can’t even roll over, how useless can you be? All they do is suck, sleep and grab.[/quote]
No brain = not people.[/quote]
Thats funny, I was just about to post EXACTLY THIS in the “using human embryos in stem cell research” thread but you beat me to it.
The brain more or less IS the person.[/quote]
That much is obvious to us, but to the religiously inclined it’s a different matter. They believe in something that isn’t tied to the body by vital parts, fully depending on its functionality.
I’d like for them to prove that instead.
[/quote]
What’s religion got to do with it? This is strait biology. And you made the claim that a developing fetus, prior to developing a brain is not human, hence the burden of proof lies with you.
I am betting money that if I DNA sample a 2 day old fetus and that same person 20 years later, it will be the same. Both human, both identical. You’re claiming that it’s not. I am feeling pretty safe on my ground.
Don’t forget pat and push, our biology based arguments are somehow tied to “morals” or with some “religiously inclined” folk. Even though simple high school biology defines the position of life. Awesome how the people of the world define a position by placing ideas or words in the opponents statements, to have a point in their mind. A professor summarized the whole debate quite well for me in one simple phrase, “WILLFULLY IGNORANT.”
So how about a person who is injured and has a brain injury? What are they? They no longer have a functional brain, so are they dead? When should we pull the plug? After a week, a month or a year? Should we wait longer? Please define your position before you make a blanket statement about you simply disagreeing with the OP.
[quote]supa power wrote:
Thats funny, I was just about to post EXACTLY THIS in the “using human embryos in stem cell research” thread but you beat me to it.
The brain more or less IS the person.[/quote]
ephrem, your point please. These sites are nothing but about how the brain is THOUGHT by some, to house consciousness. Far from globally accepted science.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Neurobiology of consciousness: an overview
or
There’s loads more![/quote]
Does this theory still need to be trashed, AGAIN?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
No brain = not people.[/quote]
The ear is never going to be a whole individual, functional and alone by itself. An embryo will be, after nature is allowed to continue down its intended path!
[quote]ephrem wrote:
So what?
The ear they grew on the back of a mouse a few years ago was human too. Should that ear have the same rights aswell?[/quote]
[quote]pat wrote:<<< Really? All this time I thought my dog and my guinea pigs were animals, one canine the other rodent, but damn they have brains. They’ve been human all this time…I better feed them then.
[/quote]LOL!!! And give them better names too. Like John and Mary. Of course if I were this guy I’d retort that a human brain equals a human and a guinea pig brain equals a guinea pig, but this was still pretty funny man.
[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< Ofcourse T, that is the only reason why your on PWI spouting your beliefs. You do it not to bring unbelievers into the fold, but you do it for yourself. >>>[/quote]I do it out of obedience with results left up to the sovereign God I serve. The moment I no longer believe I’m obeying is the moment I stop. [quote]ephrem wrote:<<< I do think life does not possess inherent meaning. We give it meaning. >>>[/quote]Lemme see if I got this. So we have meaning to give to life which does not? Does this then mean that we and life are separate entities from one another? If not then we must have both meaning and life with life then also having meaning unless you can somehow define for me a meaning compartment and a separate life compartment in your being. What do you do? Close your eyes, squint real hard and will some meaning from it’s compartment over to the life compartment which was meaningless until you did?
Naah. You are nuthin BUT meaning and significance Ephrem because you are a man bearing the image of the most high creator God and for whose purpose you most assuredly have been brought into existence. You WILL glorify Him. Either in His life or your death. You will serve as an object lesson of His grace and love or His wrath and judgment, but His perfect holiness in either case. He always gets His way… Always.
[quote]pat wrote:
This theory of yours necessarily posits that all developing organisms prior to fully developing a brain, can be anything and that if human, that same human can be replicated if terminated prior to developing a fully functional brain. [/quote]
Ah, how you twist my words is refreshing pat. If you need to believe that this is what I said and/or meant then please, be my guest.
Bye!
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]supa power wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Parts aren’t people, people are made of parts. Like a brain for instance. I don’t care if you want to chop your arm off, I do care if you want to kill your kid.
The fetus is a complete human, in developement, just as much as born human, just further along. Newborns are still pretty useless people. Hell, they can’t even roll over, how useless can you be? All they do is suck, sleep and grab.[/quote]
No brain = not people.[/quote]
Thats funny, I was just about to post EXACTLY THIS in the “using human embryos in stem cell research” thread but you beat me to it.
The brain more or less IS the person.[/quote]
Really? All this time I thought my dog and my guinea pigs were animals, one canine the other rodent, but damn they have brains. They’ve been human all this time…I better feed them then.
[/quote]
^This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on T nation… wow. So You had no idea whatsoever that I was obviously referring to a human brain??? If so then I don’t think it’s even worth arguing with you.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So how about a person who is injured and has a brain injury? What are they? They no longer have a functional brain, so are they dead? When should we pull the plug? After a week, a month or a year? Should we wait longer? Please define your position before you make a blanket statement about you simply disagreeing with the OP.
[quote]supa power wrote:
Thats funny, I was just about to post EXACTLY THIS in the “using human embryos in stem cell research” thread but you beat me to it.
The brain more or less IS the person.[/quote]
[/quote]
A brain injury does not = no brain. They still have consciousness of some sort.
Also how far back in the development cycle do people want to go before they define a human? One could argue that every time you toss a jizz covered tissue down the toilet that you are murdering humans because that sperm had the potential to produce humans. There has to be a cut off point. No brain, no human, no rights.
If people started giving rights to every damn thing that had the potential to become human then the world would be a crazy place.
[quote]supa power wrote:
One could argue that every time you toss a jizz covered tissue down the toilet that you are murdering humans because that sperm had the potential to produce humans. [/quote]
Sperm is not already an individual human organism with it’s own diploid set of chromosomes. It is a gamete, haploid. The embryo is already a developing individual. Human organism, in this case. Diploid, with it’s own DNA in place, advancing through it own life cycle. Sorry, but you’re not on the same page here.