So who and how do you decide on who to “eliminate?” Is that not exactly what the Nazi’s did to the Jews? How did the result work out?
[quote]groo wrote:
Why is this thread focused on downs syndrome? Should just call it I think eugenics is good or bad because…
I mean if our goal is improving the species we’d be much better served by eliminating a whole host of adults that are trying to pass on inferior genes instead of some downs kids.[/quote]
[quote]Raw Finn wrote:<<< For one I value all life, even insects because of the primal urge for survival and equal treatment of all life forms. At the same time I acknowledge life has no value. If I would have been given the choice to have been aborted at an unconscious point as a fetus (yeah I realize this statement contradicts itself but I hope your minds are multidimensional enough to get my point) I would have gladly chosen to be terminated because life is pointless. I have 2 reasons not to commit a suicide. 1. because my loved ones would suffer and 2. I have a natural urge to live.
Have you considered life might not be a “good thing”? Not everyone likes to have be born. I think it is cruel to force life. And if one will never become conscious to realize there is life, then there is absolutely no harm done if one were aborted. The only thing that matters is the people who already live.[/quote]From the standpoint of anti-Christian unbelief this may be the best post I’ve ever read here. This man has just declared the unavoidable conclusion of Elder Forlife’s entire view of reality. Raw Finn simply owns what nobody else will. All is meaningless. Estranged from the living God indeed it is. Of course his growing torment is that he cannot and will not actually live that way. So actually he and Elder Forlife are first cousins.
Elder Forlife universally denies certainty and then mentally manipulates himself into accounting for the purpose and meaning he unavoidably sees all around him. This guy here states outright that nothing has any meaning and then asserts his value for life. Mirror opposite versions of the same despairing unbelief. Elder Forlife builds certain significance for himself on a foundation of utter uncertainty while Raw Finn, who actually sounds a bit over cooked, says that life has no meaning while he values it, seemingly oblivious to the uneven mental state of someone who values that which has no meaning.
Ephrem old friend, you’re in here too.
Every time I think my belief system cannot possibly become more cemented in my soul I live a bit longer and observe a few more unbelievers.
What if it doesn’t? What if when the majority of people keep a level head about it and won’t abuse technology? Are you really willing to deny half the world’s population a choice and say in the matter on the off-chance a stupid person makes a stupid choice?
Think about it. Would you really rather make a woman a secondclass citizen?[/quote]
Ignoring the minefield of loaded verbiage you laid there…
You tell me, eph. Why we should not hold her responsible for the life of the child she voluntarily decided to bring into the world? We convict and jail parents in the case of neglect.
Why is “a woman’s right to choose” (wretch) suddenly sacrosanct in this particular situation?
If you are going to fall back on the “well it isn’t actually (human/life/sentient/thetan)” you are going to have to do a better job explaining why developmental stage is the deal breaker.
[/quote]
I don’t have to explain it better; I’ve explained my position many times now. It will not change as your position will not change. I’m going to leave it at that.
That is then presuming that zygote is something other than a human and really could be anything until ‘something’ bestows it a nervous system that then makes it human?
The genetic material that renders it what it is, doesn’t ever change.[/quote]
That doesn’t matter. An adult without a brain isn’t a person to me either.
Every time I think my belief system cannot possibly become more cemented in my soul I live a bit longer and observe a few more unbelievers.
[/quote]
Ofcourse T, that is the only reason why your on PWI spouting your beliefs. You do it not to bring unbelievers into the fold, but you do it for yourself.
I do think life does not possess inherent meaning. We give it meaning. How we go about it differs for each and everyone of us and we base our acceptance and exclusions of other people’s views on whether meaning overlaps or not.
IDK if this has been mentioned yet, but the test for downs syndrome is not fool-proof. I’ve been told that Doctors get more false positives for the test than people think. What then? What if you abort a normal baby? I know a friend who told me a story about someone who tested positive for it, had the kid anyway and the kid was fine.
…I have my ideology based on the trust towards scientists…
[/quote]
Salient point.
A very sad, sad commentary on how some folks formulate the foundations of their ideology.
[/quote]
That’s fine because the growing consensus among scientists are agreeing that in utero life is human life…It’s kinda tough to deny. It’s not a lizard.[/quote]
Let me finish this sentence: “I have my ideology based on the trust towards scientists” …regarding the development of the consciousness. I only take what they have observed, not their take on ethics.[/quote]
And what they observe is that human life begins at conception. That there is no discernible break in the human life cycle between that and death. Do you have a scientific proof that you rely on that tell you something different? If so, please present it.
In many cases, knowing that it’s a human hasn’t stopped people supporting the ‘right’ to kill it. So I don’t know that matters to much to abortionists. It’s just not human enough.
That is then presuming that zygote is something other than a human and really could be anything until ‘something’ bestows it a nervous system that then makes it human?
The genetic material that renders it what it is, doesn’t ever change.[/quote]
That doesn’t matter. An adult without a brain isn’t a person to me either.
[/quote]
To you. But does this opinion make something what it is?
I placed your (partial) statement in italics for a reason. Do you know what it is?
[/quote]
You are very fond of tilted letters.
What did I win?[/quote]
An all expenses paid “Life is Pointless” tour of the Navajo reservation in northeastern Arizona. There you can counsel pregnant Indian women they are better off murdering their babies in the womb so that they, the unborn, never need suffer the alcoholism, depression, job scarcity, or any other malaise they are likely to encounter in their “pointless lives.”
The Finnish Foundation for Eugenics will put up the dough to create your “experience” in the American Southwest.
Congratulations and don’t forget to send us a postcard.
That is then presuming that zygote is something other than a human and really could be anything until ‘something’ bestows it a nervous system that then makes it human?
The genetic material that renders it what it is, doesn’t ever change.[/quote]
That doesn’t matter. An adult without a brain isn’t a person to me either.
[/quote]
To you. But does this opinion make something what it is?
[/quote]
That is then presuming that zygote is something other than a human and really could be anything until ‘something’ bestows it a nervous system that then makes it human?
The genetic material that renders it what it is, doesn’t ever change.[/quote]
That doesn’t matter. An adult without a brain isn’t a person to me either.
[/quote]
To you. But does this opinion make something what it is?
[/quote]
I don’t have to explain it better; I’ve explained my position many times now. It will not change as your position will not change. I’m going to leave it at that.
[/quote]
I thought you were going to leave it at that a couple of pages ago.
You are alluding to your opinion that a human body without a brain is a person, and that that brainless person has the same rights a person with a brain has.
You are alluding to your opinion that a human body without a brain is a person, and that that brainless person has the same rights a person with a brain has.[/quote]
There it is. The word “person” just appeared.
Next: 3 pages of haggling over the definition of the word “person” while the pro-life side points out that bodies that don’t contain brains but almost certainly will is left unmolested are not exactly the same as the the leftovers from a zombie Thanksgiving.
Next: 3 pages of haggling over the definition of the word “person” while the pro-life side points out that bodies that don’t contain brains but almost certainly will is left unmolested are not exactly the same as the the leftovers from a zombie Thanksgiving.
[/quote]
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
If someone will become conscious again it has nothing to do with unconscious fetuses who will never know suffering.
[/quote]
EVERYONE who’s ever lived knows some suffering. By your parameter above ALL should be aborted.
No, you don’t. Your posts here stand for themselves.
Have you ever swatted a mosquito? If so, you like RogueHypovire have committed murder by your definition of your ethos.
And this is good enough reason to cease debating with you. You might as well be from another planet. I have no business spending sparring time with someone whose basic premise is, “Life is pointless.” No wonder you feel like you do about abortion.
No.
Do possess some kind of contraption that allows you to poll aborted babies?
Why does it matter? After all life is pointless.[/quote]
You are missing my point. I think it is ok to abort fetuses because they can’t be hurt because they don’t have a consciousness. I believe in avoidance of suffering.
Purely speaking life has no value / meaning / point. Still, personally I am forced to value life because of my existence. This is hard to explain because thoughts can never translate into words perfectly.
I have killed insects. I believe in killing. I am a predator after all. Yes it is clearly a murder. I value my kills. I also value every sacrifice a cow, a pig etc. has made by dying for the filling of our plates.
okey-dokey
I think we all should give thought to all options.
No. I don’t have to. They don’t have a conscious mind so they can’t care if they are being aborted.
