While I agree spot values for cortisol are not helpful to indicate overall release patterns throughout the day, what I see as an issue is the extremely high end range cortisol with a concurrent high NOR reading.
I am assuming cortisol is measured in nmol/l. It can’t be ug/dL with the indicated range.
If so, 193 nmol/L (7 ug/L) is not high at all for morning cortisol.
It may be helpful if the poster specified the units.
Hi, thanks for your replies, cortisol is measured in ng/ml and NOR is in pg/ml, let me know, many thanks again
Hi, it is 193 ng/ml = 193 ug/L, I think it is really high
OK. Now it makes more sense. This is 19 um/dL.
This is just about what you would expect as a morning level in a healthy person. Like I said, a single noradrenaline level is absolutely useless unless it’s way out of whack. It’s not.
Listen, buddy, we always have the desire to find a simplistic answer, to identify that specific condition, which we can fix by taking a magic pill. Unfortunately, that is rarely the case when it comes to complex psychosomatic phenomena such as erectile dysfunction, depression, etc. I wish you well. I am not trying to stop you from exploring your adrenal function and subscribing to locker-room theories. Don’t overconcentrate on your adrenal function however for two reasons:
- Nothing in blood work is really abnormal. Your cortisol is not low but that’s about it.
- Theories such as adrenal fatigue and alike are not science-based. Ther is no such thing in conventional medicine. This is the realm of (some) chiropractic, alternative medicine, etc. Just keep that in mind.
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Mario,
Your adrenals are without question disregulated. I don’t recall using the term adrenal “fatigue”. Your adrenal system is not regulated. Once unregulated, you can get any combination of strange lab results. Your NOR value is most definitely a problem. Even though in range you should be in the lower 1/3 of the range with a healthy system. Take the advise you want, but current medical training is NOT helping you. Many physicians will dismiss adrenal problems because of the term " fatigue" … So they dismiss all possibilities. The glands do NOT become fatigued, the signal to the adrenals becomes lowered. If you don’t believe this, waste money on the test. Your system will make changes to the adrenal hormones as needed to keep the most important ones highest and cortisol and DHEAS being the latter.
It is only very recently that modern medicine is beginning to accept that secondary adrenal deficiency is real and has affected patients right in front of their eyes… im sure with further study and research, these providers will catch up to speed…
Wishing you well Mario…
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Secondary adrenal insufficiency is a real condition and well-known to medical science. Like any adrenal insufficiency- primary or secondary- its hallmark is low adrenal function, i.e. low cortisol, not high cortisol.
“Dysregulated adrenals”, “strange lab results” on the other hand are not medical conditions in the realm of conventional medicine and are meaningless layman terms. Outside of medical science? Well, I can’t argue there. It’s a religion of a sort. Not my area of expertise.
The argument that modern science doesn’t know about this yet is ridiculous. There are a lot of things science doesn’t know about. Should we accept any yahoo theory arguing
that modern medicine doesn’t know everything?
One more comment- a normal range is exactly that. You can’t say a level in a healthy system should be in the lower 1/3 of the normal range. 95% of normal people fall in the “normal range”. With all its short-comings, that is the definition of a normal range.
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The only part I want to touch on here is “normal lab ranges”. Normal doesn’t represent ideal. Someone could have a TSH under 4 and be considered in range but that’s trash TSH. I am a medical professional and you might be surprised how many other medical professionals are seeing some validity to older premises (ie eastern medicine by way of TCM etc and the like). to blindly support it is wrong but to blindly ignore it because it’s a different idea isn’t smart either. For instance - this particular individual likely has a super dominant sympathetic nervous system and an extremely dormant parasympathetic nervous system. He needs to nourish the parasympathetic side of himself.
I promise this is my last unsolicited post.
I felt compelled to comment because a clear line needs to be drawn between conventional medicine (evidence-based) and pseudo science/ alternative medicine (virtually zero evidence that anything works and plenty of evidence most doesn’t work).
People are free to believe in pseudoscience the same way they are free to believe in any form of religion. However, it should be clear in these posts what’s what.
deca being severely suppressive- science
nebulous “adrenal dysregulation”- pseudoscience
dominant sympathetic and dormant parasympathetic nervous system- let me be kind- not based on any scientific data (sorry buddy)
Yea - we can disagree. I didn’t learn about it in my endocrine fellowship but I also learned to broaden my horizons to accept alternative views I cant disprove.
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I absolutely agree with this. An in range cortisol result on an adrenal panel means that either the system is functioning normal or the system has compensated to keep the result near normal at the cost of another marker. When the adrenal system is labored, it can appear normal from looking at just cortisol.
While I do agree with Kokori about about current medicine not knowing everything, this doesn’t mean that anecdotal findings are bunk. The fact is, many users of Nandralone have experienced this problem for extended periods of time. There is NO coincidence in that fact. Did Nandralone cause the problem? Likely not… it was just the nandralone that allowed the problem to be revealed. Its my personal observation that the SETUP of some guys and the abuse of nandralone made their systems set to be broken.
As Kokori said, these are theories. However, these facts and observations have been made by countless physicians all over the world. There is no NCBI journal regarding DEC-DICK. Yet many physicians have helped men normalize their systems over time, when the conventional way was to watch and wait…and nothing recovers.
As an example, steroid abusers use Tamoxifen to regain the LH signal after cycling, yet Conventional medicine will say that I cant take these pharmaceuticals because I have not been diagnosed with breast cancer… So, therefore we practice non- conventional medicine regularly.
I am not in the medical field, nor claim to be. However, I do have an extensive understanding of how our neuro-endocrine system functions. I careless who knows the most here… I only wish to help someone who is suffering what I went through…
Thanks PhysioLojic and Kokori for the responses… Erectile dysfunction is a highly complicated psychosomatic function and is incredibly disheartening to experience chronically. Sometimes when a sufferer can hear some good news and others experiences, it can help them to calm down and see some relief…
regards
Z
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Thanks mate…I went to a endo last week and he said i’m ok from the blood panel…but i am not ok i can feel it, you know What i mean…I really don’t know What to do to…let me know, thanks
Jesus christ. This thread is depressing as fuck. I’m in a similar situation. Last used deca little over a year ago now. I’ve had brief glimpses of libido- I hopped on a cruise dose for a couple weeks. The first few shots brought the magic back. I was thinking maybe trying proviron or something? Obviously I have the capacity of a libido, it really truly was back for a week- everything, going out, feeling the desire to interact and touch females. I still get morning wood, I just don’t have the desire anymore. Has anyone had any luck with ANYTHING? Bloods showed slightly high prolactin, possibly from Telmisartan, and my T was 360.
Sorry for the rant, my frustration is beyond real. I suppose I’m ‘okay’ with not being compelled to sex, but that leaves one with serious nihilism problems.
Thanks.
Hang in there, buddy. The effect of deca can last a long time in some people. It must be the individual metabolism that makes some os us so vulnerable to it. There isn’t good evidence suggesting a risk of any permanent damage. Don’t overlook other possibilities such as antidepressants, depression itself, even plain old stress. You can indeed try proviron as needed.
You seem like a wealth of info. I’ve suffered from deca dick for over a decade from taking a 19 nor when I was 19. Currently on test 160mg a week and hcg 500iu 2x a week and adex .25mg 2x a week.
My energy is better but sex drive is still awful. Please let me know what blood tests you suggest to get and what to look for. I’d really appreciate it. Btw my dheas level are high, same with E1 (estrone) thanks in advance for your time
@ztanzanite could you please give me Dr Mariano’s email? It’s the only way for me to get in touch with him, he is my only hope now
Mario,
You can google his practice and get all his contacts.
However, I do suggest more time as kokori stated…
I Do believe that the adrenal system is “part” of the problem…and secondary to what the root problem is…
There are many things that can cause your HPA axis to be dysfunctional… either way time and “proper” sleep will help. Try not to stress and work yourself up… it will only make things worse…
Some good reads for you guys. The first in particular. Soooo many people think Deca Dick is due to estrogen or prolactin. Nope.
These are great info. I have read them in detail. The good news is that some of the studies that support these articles have results that the brain systems that are affected eventually return to normal, some of these studies don’t examine that far out. I do believe that the adrenals are in part contributing to this extended suffering, but that there is a root issue related to autonomic function…
Thanks for posting those…
This study shows that exercise in some respects is as bad as nandrolone. As a matter of fact, the main conclusion of the study in their own words is:
“This study showed that high-intensity resistance training, combined or not with
high doses of nandrolone, may induce endothelial dysfunction in the
thoracic aorta from rats, supported by lower vasodilation response to
ACh and reduced NO bioavailability.”