9/11 Inside Job

you are right, it doesn’t sound like any of these people were “in a burning pool of jet fuel” which is probably why they were able to survive

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
Donovan Cowan was in an open elevator at the 78th floor (impact floors of the south tower were 78-84) sky-lobby: “We went into the elevator. As soon as I hit the button, that’s when there was a big boom. We both got knocked down. I remember feeling this intense heat. The doors were still open. The heat lasted for maybe 15 to 20 seconds I guess. Then it stopped.”

Doesn’t sound like Donovan Cowan was standing in a burning pool of jet fuel.

Stanley Praimnath was on the 81st floor of the south tower: “The plane impacts. I try to get up and then I realize that I’m covered up to my shoulder in debris. And when I’m digging through under all this rubble, I can see the bottom wing starting to burn, and that wing is wedged 20 feet in my office doorway.”

Doesn’t sound like Stanley Praimnath was in a burning pool of jet fuel, either.

Ling Young was in her 78th floor office: “Only in my area were people alive, and the people alive were from my office. I figured that out later because I sat around in there for 10 or 15 minutes. That’s how I got so burned.”

Doesn’t sound like Ling Young was in a burning pool of jet fuel, either. One suspects that 10 or 15 minutes in a a burning pool of jet fuel would have lead to the demise of the survivor Ling Young.[/quote]

[b]Battalion Seven Chief: “Battalion Seven … Ladder 15, we’ve got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones.”

Ladder 15: “Chief, what stair you in?”

Battalion Seven Chief: “South stairway Adam, South Tower.”

Ladder 15: “Floor 78?”

Battalion Seven Chief: “Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here.”

Battalion Seven Chief: "Tower one. Battalion Seven to Ladder 15.

“Fifteen.”

Battalion Seven Chief: “I’m going to need two of your firefighters Adam stairway to knock down two fires. We have a house line stretched we could use some water on it, knock it down, kay.”

Ladder 15: “Alright ten-four, we’re coming up the stairs. We’re on 77 now in the B stair, I’ll be right to you.”

Battalion Seven Operations Tower One: “Battalion Seven Operations Tower One to Battalion Nine, need you on floor above 79. We have access stairs going up to 79, kay.”

Battalion Nine: “Alright, I’m on my way up Orio.”[/b]

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/firefighter-tape-excerpts.htm

doesn’t sound like the firemen thought the building was compromised.

[quote]silencer wrote:
[b]Battalion Seven Chief: “Battalion Seven … Ladder 15, we’ve got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones.”

Ladder 15: “Chief, what stair you in?”

Battalion Seven Chief: “South stairway Adam, South Tower.”

Ladder 15: “Floor 78?”

Battalion Seven Chief: “Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here.”

Battalion Seven Chief: "Tower one. Battalion Seven to Ladder 15.

“Fifteen.”

Battalion Seven Chief: “I’m going to need two of your firefighters Adam stairway to knock down two fires. We have a house line stretched we could use some water on it, knock it down, kay.”

Ladder 15: “Alright ten-four, we’re coming up the stairs. We’re on 77 now in the B stair, I’ll be right to you.”

Battalion Seven Operations Tower One: “Battalion Seven Operations Tower One to Battalion Nine, need you on floor above 79. We have access stairs going up to 79, kay.”

Battalion Nine: “Alright, I’m on my way up Orio.”[/b]

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/firefighter-tape-excerpts.htm

doesn’t sound like the firemen thought the building was compromised. [/quote]

They didn’t. That’s why they ran up to fight the fire. By the way I saw smoke coming out of the first tower the entire time, until it fell. Not dust, a plume of smoke. So did a couple of million New Yorkers. The site also smoldered for nearly a week after they collapsed. Any thoughts on that?

Do you really think the hundreds of firefighters who were on scene would keep this secret because they are under a “gag order”. Just curious?

good point, but this doesn’t mean it wasn’t burning like hell elswhere, such as where the majority of the impact occured. Also, a large plane hit the building, the structure isn’t going to withstand that 100%. Granted it was designed to withstand it without collapsing, but it would be naive to think that it wouldn’t need immediate repair (as opposed to an inferno of a fire).

[quote]silencer wrote:
[b]Battalion Seven Chief: “Battalion Seven … Ladder 15, we’ve got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones.”

Ladder 15: “Chief, what stair you in?”

Battalion Seven Chief: “South stairway Adam, South Tower.”

Ladder 15: “Floor 78?”

Battalion Seven Chief: “Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here.”

Battalion Seven Chief: "Tower one. Battalion Seven to Ladder 15.

“Fifteen.”

Battalion Seven Chief: “I’m going to need two of your firefighters Adam stairway to knock down two fires. We have a house line stretched we could use some water on it, knock it down, kay.”

Ladder 15: “Alright ten-four, we’re coming up the stairs. We’re on 77 now in the B stair, I’ll be right to you.”

Battalion Seven Operations Tower One: “Battalion Seven Operations Tower One to Battalion Nine, need you on floor above 79. We have access stairs going up to 79, kay.”

Battalion Nine: “Alright, I’m on my way up Orio.”[/b]

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/firefighter-tape-excerpts.htm

doesn’t sound like the firemen thought the building was compromised. [/quote]

Some basic logic here for you in the tin foil hats.

If the super secret society of bad men were going to attack the WTC so we could invade Afghanistan and then Iraq, maybe one of the first things they would have done is [i]make sure the passports they were going to fake for the alleged “terrorists” were from Afghanistan and Iraq.[/i]

Instead, most of the highjackers came from Saudi Arabia, which was a horrible embarrassment to the Bush Administration, and made it infinitely more difficult to justify the invasion of Iraq!

Oh, wait, that’s right several of the “hijackers” are still alive, proving that their identity was faked. Let’s say they are alive and their identity was faked. Who’s so stupid as to fake the identity of someone from a country that you don’t want to invade?

Now, I’m no fan of Bush, but surely he’s smart enough to make sure the goddamn passports were from Iraq and not his friends in Saudi Arabia!

Also, let’s say you wanted to invade Iraq because of Oil, and you were going to use WMDs as your justification. Well, don’t collapse the WTC and risk sending the country into a horrible recession, just throw some goddamn anthrax in the subway and frame some Iraqis. OMG, we’ve raided their apartments and they’re stockpiled full of chemical and biological weapons and the blueprints for Disneyworld!

And then you get your war on. That simple.

/ruthless liberal who’s embarrassed by the “logic” of the left.

[quote]futuredave wrote:
Some basic logic here for you in the tin foil hats.

If the super secret society of bad men were going to attack the WTC so we could invade Afghanistan and then Iraq, maybe one of the first things they would have done is [i]make sure the passports they were going to fake for the alleged “terrorists” were from Afghanistan and Iraq.[/i]

Instead, most of the highjackers came from Saudi Arabia, which was a horrible embarrassment to the Bush Administration, and made it infinitely more difficult to justify the invasion of Iraq!

Oh, wait, that’s right several of the “hijackers” are still alive, proving that their identity was faked. Let’s say they are alive and their identity was faked. Who’s so stupid as to fake the identity of someone from a country that you don’t want to invade?

Now, I’m no fan of Bush, but surely he’s smart enough to make sure the goddamn passports were from Iraq and not his friends in Saudi Arabia!

Also, let’s say you wanted to invade Iraq because of Oil, and you were going to use WMDs as your justification. Well, don’t collapse the WTC and risk sending the country into a horrible recession, just throw some goddamn anthrax in the subway and frame some Iraqis. OMG, we’ve raided their apartments and they’re stockpiled full of chemical and biological weapons and the blueprints for Disneyworld!

And then you get your war on. That simple.

/ruthless liberal who’s embarrassed by the “logic” of the left.[/quote]

Come on man you are ruining the nut job thread!

I was just about to select a few finalists.

hiya…

Religious fanatic muslims from several middle eastern countries make up Al qaeda. Even though all these terrorists were from different countries they were all united under one banner and that is Islam. Al qaeda had its base in afghanistan… that is why Bush invaded the country to destroy them, members of the group are not all afghani’s.
So those hijackers having saudi arabian passports is irrelevant to Bush attacking Afghanistan

I cant comment as to whether the conspiracy theorists are right…but they do have some interesting points… and the fact that the US govt has lied about certain facts doesnt help!

[quote]Sifu wrote:
When I watched buildings being demolished on the history channel they used shaped charges that had to be perfectly aligned on either side of a support beam to cut it.

Since all of the world trade centers support beams were on the outside I think the charges would have been visible.

It’s retarded to make comparisons between the world trade center and fires that have affected much smaller buildings. The forces on a building that tall are much higher.

The sad thing is that these conspiracy web stories are recieved by some as factual information.

There is so much of this stuff out there, that real stories just get lost in all the chatter. It’s a real disservice to the public interest.[/quote]

The support beams of the WTC were on the inside of the building not on the outside hence if there were charges you would not have seen them. Picture a popsicle.

[quote]silencer wrote:
What makes it anti-semitic, Zap? The fact that it criticizes the Israeli government? Well what about the “Jews for Justice in the Middle East” organization that produced this online pamphlet (http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html) on “The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict” which is one of the strongest cases agaist the Zionist claims?
And what about the “Jews Against the Occupation” (http://www.jatonyc.org). Are they anti-semitic because they think that Israeli policy is wrong? They oppose Israel on moral grounds.

How about the Jewish groups who believe that Zionism is completely opposed to the teachings of the Torah, such as “True Torah Jews Against Zionism” (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/), or Neturei Karta- Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism (http://www.nkusa.org/), and the (http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/) Jews Not Zionists (http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/), all of which are different than each other and have some differences between them, but oppose Zionism as being un-Jewish? These, as opposed to the examples above, oppose Israel on religious grounds.

And Victor Ostrovsky also comes to mind, the infamous Canadian who went to Israel to serve its government, but was so disgusted by the actions of the Mossad (Israeli secret service) that he quit and exposed their practices in two books?

Are all of these “self-hating” Jews?

Screw you Zap, and all who try to destroy any argument against Israeli goverment practices by labelling everyone as “anti-semitic”. This suppression of people’s views, and their false labeling is almost as bad as anti-semitism itself.

so maybe, Zap, just maybe, people will be able to have intelligent discussions if there weren’t loud-mouth idiots falsely labelling everyone around in order to suppress opposing viewpoints.

And I have a tip for you, Zap… you see, when one plans to read a certain argument, to find out if the premise is true, he is actually expected to read the arguments and then make a decision. If you simply decide not to read it because you are opposed to the idea being presented, then you will never know if there are any good arguments against your own beliefs… That’s not very smart now is it? It beats the whole purpose of trying to find out the truth.[/quote]

Blaming the Jews and Zionists for everything wrong in the world is indeed anti-semitic. It is not a “label”, it is the definition.

Israel is certainly not blameless in the world, but they did not conspire with the Zionists in the US government to knock down the WTC.

It is impossible to have an “intelligent discussion” about this foolishness because there is nothing intelligent about it. An intelligent man recognizes it as crap and dismisses it or laughs at it.

As to reading that whole site, I don’t have to eat 10 pounds of shit to know it tastes bad. After eating the first 3 or 4 pounds I can figure it out.

If you think my dismissing their views as foolish and anti-semitic is the same thing as suppressing their views you certainly have a lot to learn.

Silencer, next time you think about posting drivel like you did maybe you should suppress yourself.

[quote]futuredave wrote:
A whole bunch of good stuff.

/ruthless liberal who’s embarrassed by the “logic” of the left.[/quote]

Futuredave, The Democrats have to distance themselves from this kind of crap like the Republicans had to do in the 1990’s with the militia movements.

I really don’t think this crap is part of most of the lefts beliefs.

I am truly shocked this hasn’t turned into an all out flame war.

That being said… I am also suprised that people on both sides of this have been somewhat open minded… very surprised in fact. Let me me throw you a little curveball. Let’s say that we totally switched the stories of both sides (govt vs tin foil hats). So… lets say the FBI came out and initially said 9/11 was in inside job blah blah blah and the conspiracy theorists claimed that it wasnt an inside job and was really the work of bin laden blah blah blah. Keep in mind that the supporting evidence from both sides would be switched as well.

Who would you believe? The government I’m sure. Why is that? They have quite a history of lying to us. I look at anything they say with a pretty jaundiced eye. In the words of our President…

“Fool me once, shame on … shame on you. Fool me … … you can’t get fooled again.”"

If something is indeed laughable, it isn’t simply because you don’t believe it or don’t like it or because the recognized authorities say so.

There need to be reasons. Otherwise, you may as well have been born a parrot instead of a human.

Also, there is no group that should not be allowed to be placed under scrutiny. There is nothing evil about looking into a conspiracy by some ethnic group or minority.

After all, the working theory that has brought us to war is that an Arabic “minority” known as Al-Quaeda committed the acts which lead us to where we are today.

So, while I’m not pointing any fingers, the fact that the Jewish community was indescribably wronged in the past does not mean that some hard line fraction of them cannot commit any wrongs of their own for all eternity.

They are just another group that deserved realistic scrutiny and application of law and justice as is done towards any of us. They are simply people and they have flaws just like we do.

Anyway, I’m simply talking about process, not trying to put forward any theories or beliefs here.

No pga the structural steel that held up the world trade center was what made the outer walls. That’s why the outside of the wtc looked liked steel beams.

The floors tied the support columns together and connected them to the center which contained the elevators stairs electrical and most importantly water. The floors were the first thing to give way. When the floors gave way the supports were no longer tied together then they failed.

PBS ran did a nova episode that explains it. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/collapse.html

These conspiracy theorists do a real disservice by putting so much bad disinformation out there. It’s ok to question things but these people go too far.

[quote]bigrondog wrote:
What the hell does a “former chief economist” know about the structural integrity of skyscrapers?[/quote]

While I read these boards once a day, I never really post. However I would like to add to bigrondog’s comments.

This article about an inside job for 9/11 is chock full of logical fallacies.
The one that bigrondog pointed out is the Appeal to Authority. The author of the article used a title of an Authority figure to give substance to the article, the problem is there is no name attached to the Authority plus the fact an economist is no authority of buildings, fires, wall structure, or engineering design.

Essentially the author’s first sentence screamed out “I am fake, read me and laugh!”

And yes this was a fun read.

Qivalon~

Don?t know if other engineers have chimed in yet, but I will debunk what the author claims right now.

?-- Photos showing people walking around in the hole in the North Tower where 10,000 gallons of jet fuel supposedly was burning…?
First, when were the pictures taken? Was it more than 15minutes after impact? Odds are it was. And as we all know, fire needs fuel to burn. With ample oxygen supply and an open fuel source- such as a compromised fuel tank- the fuel would have burned rather quickly, and at darn hot temps. So a picture of ppl walking around where the building collapsed proves absolutely nothing because the fuel would have been consumed within minutes after impact.

?–When the South Tower was hit, most of the North Tower’s flames had already vanished, burning for only 16 minutes, making it relatively easy to contain and control without a total collapse.?
Well, it?s nice that the author just proved my point for issue 1 above. I ask what suggests to the author that just because there was no active fire that a collapse could have been avoided. Considering the towers were designed to withstand an impact of a smaller plane with a lighter fuel supply and the low factors of safety they were likely using for such an unlikely worst case scenario load case. From the temperatures that the fuel would have burned and the force of impact, the structure at the area of impact was more likely than not incinerated. The steel would not have only been weakened by the heat (steel is tempered when heat is applied, making it less brittle, more ductile but it also reduces the tensile and compressive yield and ultimate strengths). So, even if the steel support structure somehow withstood the impact (not likely) it would have been tempered to the point that it wouldn?t even have been able to support the few floors above it- had it not melted outright. This would lead to collapse of the floors above the impact area which would have lead to the collapse of the rest of the tower through multiple modes: 1) Impact energy from the plane going to energy of deformation 2) Kinetic energy of the top floors collapsing (KE=1/2mv^2) onto the already compromised lower levels and 3) tempering of the structure below the impact area because heat has a tendency to radiate out from its source point- so the structure beneath the impact area was also weakened substantially by the intense heat of the fuel burning.

?–The fire did not grow over time, probably because it quickly ran out of fuel and was suffocating, indicating without added explosive devices the firs could have been easily controlled.?
Since when can fires not spread? Since when is it short work to control a fire that hot at that high a floor? The author makes so many presuppositions about things it makes my head hurt.

?–Even the flawed 9/11 Commission Report acknowledges that “none of the [fire] chiefs present believed that a total collapse of either tower was possible.”?
Can?t comment on fire chiefs and what they were thinking. Don?t know if this is even true, but I cannot see where any fire chief could say such things.

?-- Fire had never before caused steel-frame buildings to collapse except for the three buildings on 9/11, nor has fire collapsed any steel high rise since 9/11.?
To my knowledge no other buildings have been hit by jet liners with that much kinetic energy behind them, either. Multiple factors contributed to the WTC case- you might call it a complex stress case. The author over simplifies the case into a single stress, neglecting all other stresses. This makes for a HUGE amount of error.

?-- The fires, especially in the South Tower and WTC-7, were relatively small.?
Relatively small compared to what? On whos authority is the author making these claims?

?-- WTC-7 was unharmed by an airplane and had only minor fires on the seventh and twelfth floors of this 47-story steel building yet it collapsed in less than 10 seconds.

– WTC-5 and WTC-6 had raging fires but did not collapse despite much thinner steel beams.?
Don?t know about the accuracy of these statements, but the structural integrity is directly proportional to the heat of the fires and any vibration caused by impact and/or collapse and any other energy absorbed into the structure being converted to energy of deformation. Don?t feel like looking it up- a link to a reputable website would be nice if anyone has one- then I can study it in detail and give an informed view.

?-- It’s difficult if not impossible for hydrocarbon fires like those fed by jet fuel (kerosene) to raise the temperature of steel close to melting.?
On some other guys site he tries to explain away the heat and energy of the fire, but he gets about 1,364,000,000,000 Joules of energy, and claims that the fire could only have gotten to about 280degrees. Now, he is basing these calculations on the idea that the building was fully intact when the fire started so that every gram of material was there to absorb energy- which is patently false because a damn plane just slammed into the building. But, let?s take this likely underestimate and run with it. 280C=536F. Tempering can be achieved at temperatures as low as 300-400F. So, there is proof for tempering and structure weakening by the heat. Factor in the impact, the load and the heat, and you have more than enough to collapse a building. But like I said before, I would bet money that the temp the dude calc?d above are underestimations.

?Eagar points out the steel in the towers could have collapsed only if heated to the point where it “lost 80 percent of its strength,” or around 1,300 degrees Fahrenheit. Critics claim his theory is flawed since the fires did not appear to be intense and widespread enough to reach such high temperatures.?
This guy is running numbers on only the heat, again. Leave out a single factor and you have a completely different load case, and a completely different scenario.

?Other experts supporting the official story claim the impact of the airplanes, not the heat, weakened the entire structural system of the towers, but critics contend the beams on floors 94-98 did not appear severely weakened, much less the entire structural system.?
What critics? I want to see the numbers and the samples that they analyzed. But yet again, these guys are looking only at a single factor. Anybody w/ any kind of training knows better than that.

?“First, no steel-framed skyscraper, even engulfed in flames hour after hour, had ever collapsed before. Suddenly, three stunning collapses occur within a few city blocks on the same day, two allegedly hit by aircraft, the third not,” said Reynolds. "These extraordinary collapses after short-duration minor fires made it all the more important to preserve the evidence, mostly steel girders, to study what had happened.

“On fire intensity, consider this benchmark: A 1991 FEMA report on Philadelphia’s Meridian Plaza fire said that the fire was so energetic that ‘beams and girders sagged and twisted, but despite this extraordinary exposure, the columns continued to support their loads without obvious damage.’ Such an intense fire with consequent sagging and twisting steel beams bears no resemblance to what we observed at the WTC.”?
Again, only taking into consideration the heat. The energy of deformation from the plane is immense. Ignoring that completely changes EVERYTHING.

If anybody has exact numbers on stuff, I would be glad to run solid numbers to back everything up. but the biggest thing that gets me is how every damn “expert” oversimplifies the case and then makes concrete absolute conclusions. Unless you have EXACT data, you cant make EXACT conclusions. And even if you do, it really isnt safe because odds are you missed a few things in the analysis. That is what factors of safety in design are for - math simplifications, variations in materials and overlooked influences on the system. These guys are ingoring 2 of three factors and making absolute conclusions on the incomplete and innacurate information. Shit in = Shit out, ladies and gentlemen.

DA MAN,

So you are arguing that it collapsed after being heated, when it was later cooling off?

Read the PBS website analysis. It explains that the beams only had to experience 300 degrees temperature difference from one end to the other to be permanently distorted and buckle.

The weak link was the angle irons that attached the floors to the structure. The floors are what held everything together. It took a lot less to damage them than the structural supports.

The 10,000 gallon lake of burning fuel is just wrong. It is well known and documented that much of that fuel poured down the elevator shafts and burned people in the lobby.

It was also established that the planes plowed everything on the floors they hit out of the way.

The piled debris was a big source of slow burning fuel for the fire and it was on the side that had to take up the load from the missing structural supports.

This created a fuel free zone where there was nothing left to burn. This same area was where people were seen walking around.

There are significant flaws in this conspiracy theory, that anyone who took the time to study what structural engineers have to say would be able to see.

the notion that the center of the building was carrying the load would be pure garbage as a cantilevered beam, in this case the floor, would bend a rediculous amount if it was stationed to the only the center of the building. The fact that large buildings use both the INSIDE and the OUTSIDE of the structure for support should be obvious to anyone who’s ever built, or studied the building of pretty much any very large structure.

Sifu, I commend you on your reference

[quote]Sifu wrote:
No pga the structural steel that held up the world trade center was what made the outer walls. That’s why the outside of the wtc looked liked steel beams.

The floors tied the support columns together and connected them to the center which contained the elevators stairs electrical and most importantly water. The floors were the first thing to give way. When the floors gave way the supports were no longer tied together then they failed.

PBS ran did a nova episode that explains it. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/collapse.html

These conspiracy theorists do a real disservice by putting so much bad disinformation out there. It’s ok to question things but these people go too far.[/quote]

it’s nice to see someone with good sense out there!

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Read the PBS website analysis. It explains that the beams only had to experience 300 degrees temperature difference from one end to the other to be permanently distorted and buckle.

The weak link was the angle irons that attached the floors to the structure. The floors are what held everything together. It took a lot less to damage them than the structural supports.

The 10,000 gallon lake of burning fuel is just wrong. It is well known and documented that much of that fuel poured down the elevator shafts and burned people in the lobby.

It was also established that the planes plowed everything on the floors they hit out of the way.

The piled debris was a big source of slow burning fuel for the fire and it was on the side that had to take up the load from the missing structural supports.

This created a fuel free zone where there was nothing left to burn. This same area was where people were seen walking around.

There are significant flaws in this conspiracy theory, that anyone who took the time to study what structural engineers have to say would be able to see. [/quote]

I would really like to keep this thread going a while longer. I reread some of the nutty conspiracies and they were most entertaining.

Anyone else?