7/7 "Mastermind" Seized, Iraq

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]Sloth wrote:
100meters wrote:

Accepting punishment is what we do now. And of course there are smarter ways to fight terrorism than creating more terrorists and giving them U.S. soldiers to hone their tactics against every single day.

You do realize the goal should be less terrorism, not fight more terrorists…right?

Accepting punishment? Our forces kill/capture far more Al Qaeda, and their pals, than they do ours. You talk about Al Qaeda honing their tactics in this type of warfare, well so do our guys.

And, correct, that is the goal. Which is why victory in Iraq has to be achieved. You’re not going to argue that handing a victory to Al Qaeda in Iraq will be a better solution for lessening the threat of terrorism, are you?[/quote]

If we’re staying deployed as we are in Iraq, then yes we are accepting punishment (given that military,officials,everbody agree there will be no military victory.) Also I believe Al qaeda’s goal was to draw us into a war just like this one. We are willingly participating in their “victory”.

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The opinion of an unbiased person.

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If you think Al Qaeda is there merely to kill americans, think again. AL Qaeda and it’s insurgent partners [Islamic State of Iraq] have a plan for Iraq. An extraordinarily Islamic state, that will be an unopposed haven for the Jihadists. Pull out of Iraq now, and we’ll be turning right back around to go after AL Qaeda again.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/29/iraq.main/index.html
"The city went on high alert after the Islamic State of Iraq – the insurgent umbrella group that includes al Qaeda in Iraq – distributed leaflets to police in Samarra on Saturday, warning them that they have three days to “repent” or be killed.

The insurgent group also told police to use loudspeakers at mosques and marketplaces to announce their rejection of the "apostate state.""

Yeah, good luck getting moderate muslims and/or governments to assist us once they see the moderates we leave behind in Iraq slaughtered and swallowed up.

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[quote]Sloth wrote:
If you think Al Qaeda is there merely to kill americans, think again. AL Qaeda and it’s insurgent partners [Islamic State of Iraq] have a plan for Iraq. An extraordinarily Islamic state, that will be an unopposed haven for the Jihadists. [/quote]

The Mujahideen never hid the fact that they wanted to instaure Islamic states just about everywhere on the globe. We’ve been aware about their evil scheme for decades.

Iraq is different from other countries precisely because you invaded it and created a haven in which extremists could foster. If your goal is to strengthen the ranks of Al-Qaeda, then don’t change a thing. If, on the other hand, you’re interested in securing the country and making it hard for Al-Qaeda to operate there, follow Baker and Hamilton’s advices.

Brute force will only lead to the adverse effect in this case.

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[quote]Sloth wrote:

"The al-Qaeda leader who is thought to have devised the plan for the July 7 suicide bombings in London and an array of terrorist plots against Britain has been captured by the Americans.

Abd al-Hadi al-Iraqi, a former major in Saddam Hussein?s army, was apprehended as he tried to enter Iraq from Iran and was transferred this week to the ?high-value detainee programme? at Guantanamo Bay."

See the rest of the article. But yeah, we should just cut and run. Hand them the victory, you know?[/quote]

MI6 was the mastermind.

What a “coincidence” …

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[quote]Sloth wrote:
If you think Al Qaeda is there merely to kill americans, think again. AL Qaeda and it’s insurgent partners [Islamic State of Iraq] have a plan for Iraq. An extraordinarily Islamic state, that will be an unopposed haven for the Jihadists. Pull out of Iraq now, and we’ll be turning right back around to go after AL Qaeda again.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/29/iraq.main/index.html
"The city went on high alert after the Islamic State of Iraq – the insurgent umbrella group that includes al Qaeda in Iraq – distributed leaflets to police in Samarra on Saturday, warning them that they have three days to “repent” or be killed.

The insurgent group also told police to use loudspeakers at mosques and marketplaces to announce their rejection of the "apostate state.""

Yeah, good luck getting moderate muslims and/or governments to assist us once they see the moderates we leave behind in Iraq slaughtered and swallowed up.[/quote]

Sloth,

In the interests of fairness, I have spent time trying to figure out what the other side is thinking.

One must throw out the guys who are nuts/agendas like lixy/renny/bradley.

Then you are left with a group of people who say, “out of Iraq.” I think their “logic” starts with: Bush lied us into war. Therefore, we made more terrorists. Finally, we should stop the mistake and pull out. No more Americans dying in Iraq.

The problem that you and I have (beyond the obvious Bush Derangement Syndrome crap) is that EVEN if all of this was true, the fact remains that Iraq is the central front on terror. Not Afghanistan. Not Bali. It’s Iraq. The resources are going there. The publicity. The enemy “army” is there.

Therefore, since Iraq is the highest priority in the enemy’s battleplan, pulling out of the battle is defeat.

What else can you call it?

The very second we pull out, guess who will publically claim victory.

Does anyone seriously want to state that we won’t be “treated” to audio/video tapes of bin laden and his deputies declaring victory?

Now, unless the other side (Americans only) are traitors as well as misguided, they’ll give this some thought next time they open up their cloacas.

JeffR

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[quote]lixy wrote:

Getting out of Iraq is NOT a victory for Al-Qaeda. If anything, it’ll automatically and instantely shrink their support base.[/quote]

I, seriously, can’t find any way to even begin to believe this. I have trouble even reading it without laughing. That said, do you have anything even close to evidence or anyone even tangential to the intelligence community who would put his name behind this assessment?

Because I’ve heard plenty of “paper tiger” speeches to the opposite effect.

[quote]lixy wrote:

The Mujahideen never hid the fact that they wanted to instaure Islamic states just about everywhere on the globe. We’ve been aware about their evil scheme for decades.[/quote]

Please clarify Mujahideen and/or their evil scheme.

So, Iraq’s infrastructure is shattered, its people oppressed, and Al-Qaeda is thriving?

And we should leave?

And go against President Talabani’s advice?

Would the adverse effect be worse than the ones we suffered when we weren’t an occupying force in the ME?

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I KNEW they’d spring this stuff on us right before the election. Bushitler HAD this guy and he trotted him out just before the election to swing things his

way…man…oh…wait…my AirAmerica/NY Times/NPR talking points are a bit out of date here…uh…oh, well: BUSH LIED KIDS DIED!

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[quote]JeffR wrote:
The very second we pull out, guess who will publically claim victory.

Does anyone seriously want to state that we won’t be “treated” to audio/video tapes of bin laden and his deputies declaring victory? [/quote]

Let me start by saluting your intellectual honesty and thank you for sharing that priceless bit of wisdom.

That said, you seriously need to have your priorities sorted. Nobody can refute that Al-Qaeda will abuse that situation and make some derogatory videos depicting a defeated America and claim that they will now start the coup de grace part of their plan to bring America to its knees.

I can already picture Al-Jazeera playing those in loops and O’Reilly fuming and waving his arms. Anyway, like I said, that’s a given. But to be fair, you missed the fact that they already are claiming victory after every successful attack against US troops. Yeah, they also pull stunts like Bush’s “mission accomplished” except that they’re proud of their combatants’ inflated casualty numbers when Washington does its best to keep it’s own losses hush-hush.

So the choice is simple: Either you withdraw from Iraq and a bunch of suicidal nutjobs gets to poke fun at you, OR you stay there, waste money, spill your kids’ blood and help them get ever more sympathizers. Your call!

A wise man once said: “EFPs and AK-47 bullets can wound my flesh but videos on YouTube can never hurt me”

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[quote]lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
The very second we pull out, guess who will publically claim victory.

Does anyone seriously want to state that we won’t be “treated” to audio/video tapes of bin laden and his deputies declaring victory?

Let me start by saluting your intellectual honesty and thank you for sharing that priceless bit of wisdom.

That said, you seriously need to have your priorities sorted. Nobody can refute that Al-Qaeda will abuse that situation and make some derogatory videos depicting a defeated America and claim that they will now start the coup de grace part of their plan to bring America to its knees.

I can already picture Al-Jazeera playing those in loops and O’Reilly fuming and waving his arms. Anyway, like I said, that’s a given. But to be fair, you missed the fact that they already are claiming victory after every successful attack against US troops. Yeah, they also pull stunts like Bush’s “mission accomplished” except that they’re proud of their combatants’ inflated casualty numbers when Washington does its best to keep it’s own losses hush-hush.

So the choice is simple: Either you withdraw from Iraq and a bunch of suicidal nutjobs gets to poke fun at you, OR you stay there, waste money, spill your kids’ blood and help them get ever more sympathizers. Your call!

A wise man once said: “EFPs and AK-47 bullets can wound my flesh but videos on YouTube can never hurt me”[/quote]

lixy,

Let’s put aside the fact that you are on here to dispirit and defeat the weak-minded.

You (and unfortunately Bush) grossly underestimate the importance of the Information War. To give al qaeda (who is being killed by the score) a victory of this magnitude, would swell their numbers FAR BEYOND “Bush lied, everyone died.” Think about it, the Americans leave prior to the Iraqi Government being able to police itself, what happens?

I’ll tell you, al qaeda turns Iraq into Afghanistan west. They can say, we defeated the Americans, join our cause.

You know what happens after the Iraqi pullout? bin laden and his deputies conference, recruit, and drive us out of Afghanistan.

“Hey, we won in Iraq.”

The same turdballs who blame the color of piss on George Bush, will say, “Well, it’s Bush’s fault for invading Iraq. We had Afghanistan perfectly pacified.”

Some dimwit said, “Well Vietnam defeated you and didn’t follow up on our shores.” That crap misses the essential FACT that this is a global war. They’ve already bloodied our nose. Their stated goals are our destruction.

What’s sickening, lixy, is not that you and your commanders are waging an information war, it’s that some American weiners are willing to agree with you.

JeffR

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[quote]JeffR wrote:
lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
The very second we pull out, guess who will publically claim victory.

Does anyone seriously want to state that we won’t be “treated” to audio/video tapes of bin laden and his deputies declaring victory?

Let me start by saluting your intellectual honesty and thank you for sharing that priceless bit of wisdom.

That said, you seriously need to have your priorities sorted. Nobody can refute that Al-Qaeda will abuse that situation and make some derogatory videos depicting a defeated America and claim that they will now start the coup de grace part of their plan to bring America to its knees.

I can already picture Al-Jazeera playing those in loops and O’Reilly fuming and waving his arms. Anyway, like I said, that’s a given. But to be fair, you missed the fact that they already are claiming victory after every successful attack against US troops. Yeah, they also pull stunts like Bush’s “mission accomplished” except that they’re proud of their combatants’ inflated casualty numbers when Washington does its best to keep it’s own losses hush-hush.

So the choice is simple: Either you withdraw from Iraq and a bunch of suicidal nutjobs gets to poke fun at you, OR you stay there, waste money, spill your kids’ blood and help them get ever more sympathizers. Your call!

A wise man once said: “EFPs and AK-47 bullets can wound my flesh but videos on YouTube can never hurt me”

lixy,

Let’s put aside the fact that you are on here to dispirit and defeat the weak-minded.

You (and unfortunately Bush) grossly underestimate the importance of the Information War. To give al qaeda (who is being killed by the score) a victory of this magnitude, would swell their numbers FAR BEYOND “Bush lied, everyone died.” Think about it, the Americans leave prior to the Iraqi Government being able to police itself, what happens?

I’ll tell you, al qaeda turns Iraq into Afghanistan west. They can say, we defeated the Americans, join our cause.

You know what happens after the Iraqi pullout? bin laden and his deputies conference, recruit, and drive us out of Afghanistan.

“Hey, we won in Iraq.”

The same turdballs who blame the color of piss on George Bush, will say, “Well, it’s Bush’s fault for invading Iraq. We had Afghanistan perfectly pacified.”

Some dimwit said, “Well Vietnam defeated you and didn’t follow up on our shores.” That crap misses the essential FACT that this is a global war. They’ve already bloodied our nose. Their stated goals are our destruction.

What’s sickening, lixy, is not that you and your commanders are waging an information war, it’s that some American weiners are willing to agree with you.

JeffR
[/quote]

Yes, we must allow second term Bush to continue “fixing” the mistakes of first term Bush.

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Should we fight Al Qaeda?

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[quote]lucasa wrote:
I, seriously, can’t find any way to even begin to believe this. I have trouble even reading it without laughing. That said, do you have anything even close to evidence or anyone even tangential to the intelligence community who would put his name behind this assessment?[/quote]

They are too many to cite:

Same as always, pinky; their scheme is to rule the world.

[quote]So, Iraq’s infrastructure is shattered, its people oppressed, and Al-Qaeda is thriving?

And we should leave?[/quote]

Let’s see, if you didn’t go there, the people would still be oppressed but at least the infrastructure would be intact and you couldn’t find traces of Al-Qaeda around.

You shouldn’t have went there to start with.

You evidently didn’t read the report. It preconized sitting down with Syria and Iran and Talabani fully supports that.

I hate playing the cynic, so let’s please keep it brief.

What you suffered when you weren’t in the M.E:

  • 9/11 attacks: 2948 dead (confirmed deaths)

What you suffered when you went to Iraq:

  • Military casualties: 3351 dead (From the DoD)

What iraqis suffered when you went to the M.E:

  • Civilian casualties: 650,000+ dead (Lancet)

What Iraqis had to do with 9/11:

  • 9/11 Iraqi hijackers: 0 (absolutely nothing)

Given that Saddam was fiercely fighting Islamists when he was in power, the answer to your question is a resounding YES! Counting only the military casualties (not the Blackwater people), you managed to kill more Americans than Al-Qaeda did on 9/11.

Simple. You fscked up BIG time!

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Do the majority of Iraqi’s regret Saddam being overthrown?

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[quote]JeffR wrote:
To give al qaeda (who is being killed by the score) a victory of this magnitude, would swell their numbers FAR BEYOND “Bush lied, everyone died.” [/quote]

No way. Suicide bombing is the arm of the desperate. If you remove the “lost cause” from the equation, it’ll be harder for them to find people ready to blow themselves up.

Don’t be ridiculous. You’re the mightiest army the world has ever seen. There’s no way a bunch of bearded guys can drive you out of anywhere.

Good point. I wouldn’t call it a war though. I mean did Paris declare a war against Corsica for its terrorists? Did Spain declare war against the ETA? It’s a battle alright, but you can’t engage militarily in it. The Russians experienced that in Afghanistan (and keep in mind that they didn’t have the liberals on their back all the time!). You experienced it in 'Nam and are now reliving it in Iraq. But of course, when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

I don’t claim to have the solution, but I’m sure that it involves less killing of innocents (whose relatives then wanna get back to you). It’s more along the lines of having an international cooperation between intelligence and police forces. That’s SCARY, but at least, less innocents will die.

I have to ask you a question at this point and please be genuine. How sure would you say you are that I’m part of a ring/cell? Please quantify in percents.

Thank you.

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[quote]lixy wrote:

I don’t claim to have the solution, but I’m sure that it involves less killing of innocents (whose relatives then wanna get back to you).

It’s more along the lines of having an international cooperation between intelligence and police forces. That’s SCARY, but at least, less innocents will die.

[/quote]
So let me get this straight, police actions? In what capacity are we talking. Say terrorists strike, a government won’t hand over their leaders, what then?

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[quote]Sloth wrote:
So let me get this straight, police actions? In what capacity are we talking. Say terrorists strike, a government won’t hand over their leaders, what then? [/quote]

We’ve been thru that already.

Carpet bomb the hell out of them like you did to the Afghans. Just make sure you’re CERTAIN first.

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So should we fight Al Qaeda?