6 Months of Ineffective TRT; Latest Labs Posted. What Next?

[rabbit_ears]

here is a snap shot of some of the most relevant blood work over my journey to TRT

[systemlord]

@rabbit_ears

here is a snap shot of some of the most relevant blood work over my journey to TRT

Look at how your Free T levels went from 15->28 going from 100->140mg, if you felt ok at 15 and when you got to 28 felt worse, then you should go between 15-28.

[Gossamer]

In that chart, it looks like the Total Testosterone (TT), and the Free T numbers are reversed.

I’ve seen corpses with a higher Total T than 3.

[rabbit_ears]

Different units of measure; if you concert 3.0 to ng/dL it’s somewhere around 90

[rabbit_ears]

I’m saying I felt the exact same at 15, 28 and 3. Absolutely no difference other than maybe marginally better sleep and feel like I’m retaining water (bloated)

[systemlord]

@rabbit_ears

I’m saying I felt the exact same at 15, 28 and 3.

Then you have others medical problems.

[rabbit_ears]

That was the whole point of this post. I said I was non-responsive to TRT. Asked why that could be and what labs I should get done. Then posted my labs in hopes that they would give someone an indication as to why I am not getting any symptom relief regardless of hormone level.
I may as well be injecting water for all it is doing. I think maybe I’ll get off this merry go round as TRT is not for everybody

[maddog352002]

I find trt to be mild as far as effect on mood. For energy it’s hit or miss, mostly because I’m working out harder and growing more muscle. I’ve had all the labs done and the doctors think I should feel like a god at 210mg per week. But I feel mostly the same.

Now libido is a different story. It’s got me horny 24/7. My erections were lacking due to the years of no libido but I got some Cialis online and that has been a game changer. It’s blown the piping wide open and even without it things with great.

Hope my experience helps.

[bcostigan41]

@rabbit_ears

why I am not getting any symptom relief regardless of hormone level.

I am by no means an expert, but they only thing I see is a slightly elevated TSH. My case was sorta like you a little, but I was seeing some symptom relief at 120mg-140mg a week… But not what I expected. I tested my thyroid and found I was subclinical hypothyroid and started Armour Thyroid.

140mg a week (40mg EOD) pre-armour had my TT at 690ish and E2 around 26. I was still having intermittent ED and hit or miss libido.

4 months after starting armour on the same dose had my TT at 1192, FT at 23.1, E2 at 41 and I was getting much better symptom relief.

While your FT3 is at the top of the range, I wonder if there is something there with this l thyroid? I have no idea, maybe you need a higher FT? I know @dbossa has experience helping guys. Maybe he could chime in?

[rabbit_ears]

That’s kinda what I hoping for with these bloods, was to find thyroid tanked and would explain my non-response. But they seemed to be normal, at least as far as the range goes and they are comparable to my results from 4yrs ago, which doesn’t mean much as I’ve been symptomatic for years as far a libido, ED, energy and inability to lose weight goes. But as I said, I don’t fully understand the mechanism of all the thyroid hormones.
Been waiting for someone more enlightened than myself to chime in.
I wouldn’t be averse to running some armour and slightly lowering my T dosage if it would help, but not sure if my levels are at point where that is warranted.
I went out with a girl a while back that said a few years ago she was on some hormones when she was trying to get pregnant and she said it made her ridiculously horny all the time. She would see a truck go by and think “I bet there’s a guy in there…”
While I don’t want to go around humping legs, I would like to rekindle something; I can feign interest for a while but I don’t think that helps much with the ED issues

[dbossa]

@systemlord

Anyone with 3.0 nmol/L (86 ng/dL) pre-TRT more than likely has super low SHBG and the high dosing might not be appropriate and if you do have low SHBG, high testosterone is might actually be why you don’t feel any benefits.

Where do you come up with nonsense like this? Where?

@systemlord

This is because everyone is different, I didn’t feel hardly any benefits at high levels, in fact dropping the dosage down worked wonders. Less is more in my case. You’ve only been on the daily protocol for 6 weeks, a little too early to be feeling the full benefits of TRT and the previous protocols were a little aggressive.

This is funny because everyone I know (including myself) does better with higher levels except for you. Why are you giving him advice when you KNOW you are an outlier? Why are you giving him advice based on your personal experience that affects maybe 1 in a 1000 men?

@systemlord

If you don’t have enough SHBG, you can’t play this TRT game, SHBG hands out all the cards, if SHBG is in the single digits, all the testosterone in the world will never be enough and knowing how androgens suppress SHBG, more isn’t always better.

What the hell are you talking about? You can’t do TRT if your SHBG is low? What the hell are you talking about?? Are you just ignorant on this subject or are you purposely being dishonest with everyone? Which one is it?

@unreal24278

@dbossa going to use you as my backup, my ace card in case I’m ganged up on here lol

You KNOW that everything @systemlord is saying in this thread is utter bullshit. You KNOW it. Everyone else KNOWS it. For crissakes even @vonko1988 knows it.

@systemlord

I don’t understand why people keep bringing outliers to the discussion.

You bring YOURSELF into EVERY DISCUSSION and you KNOW you are an outlier!!

@systemlord

I think your dosage is too aggressive and is why you aren’t feeling good, more is better doesn’t apply to you. This wouldn’t be the first time some complained of symptoms with estrogen creeping towards 70 with poor sleep being the most notable one.

No it isn’t! It isn’t!! Why are you giving this man this nonsense advice??

@systemlord

I’m probably going to take some heat from my next comment, but this for me would be an estrogen problem because it has my mind sped up to the point where sleep suffers even though I felt groggy/sleepy.

How many videos with physicians do we need to do to get this point through your head? How much literature do I have to send you that estrogen is not the culprit here? Here is some more evidence. Read it!

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Ml3jnxdxpBTc3kKIIpW3KT5CqrwIdjuG

@rabbit_ears

when i first started on TRT six months ago, i was told to take 0.5mg arimidex 2X per week.

So right away you were led astray and that’s not your fault.

rabbit_ears:

I am not “symptomatic” of high E, in that i don’t have sensitive nipples or gyno (though i do feel i’m paranoid about;

I think a lot of your problems are also T related and not just E2 related, poor sleep is a symptom of excess of both and can wire us up a little. Some guys can easily handle levels 1000>, some can’t. Your Free T is higher than any natural men and you may not need levels this high.

Adjust your protocol and lower your dosage and you’ll be fine.

You’re tell the guy he was led astray by taking an AI but then tell him to be afraid of estrogen?? Which one is it??

@systemlord

You are changing too many things, just lower the dosage. For all we know these two changes will lead to the same place. Your can’t math this out in your head, your biology doesn’t play by the same rules.

Just lower the dosage? Since when do we lower the dosage when there are symptoms of low testosterone? WHY are you wasting this man’s time?? Do you WANT him to continue to feel like garbage?

@unreal24278

Not “heat” but I should clarify estrogen doesn’t induce insomnia, it’s quite the opposite. Oestrogen promotes a healthier sleep for most, during menopause many women notice insomnia in response to declining levels of estrogen.

Testosterone itself up regulates beta adrenergic receptors, influencing sensitivity to catecholamine release, up-regulating the sympathetic nervous system etc.

YES! EXACTLY!

@systemlord

Your levels are too high, you need balance. I felt as bad or worse with Total T at the top of the reference ranges, yours are well above and your E2 is approaching a woman’s estrogen level.

No they are NOT too high!!! They are not high ENOUGH!! 69 pg/mL is approaching a woman’s level?? What???

[dbossa]

Jesus Christ.

I just can’t believe it. The amount of time I spend away from my business and my family, bringing on medical professionals from all over the world, providing the medical literature as evidence, getting thousands of views and yet this garbage continues to be spewed. You should be ashamed of yourself. No wonder everyone is a mess. Time to start a @systemlord thread.

@rabbit_ears, let’s make this really, really simple, shall we?

Rule #1: If you take any of @systemlord advice, you will continue to feel like dogshit. I can spend an 8 hour day on the phone with you explaining why what he says is sheer nonsense and that wouldn’t give me enough time.

Rule #2: Look at your levels. 1046.1 ng/dL total testosterone and 28 pg/mL free testosterone (I converted to the units of measurement that they use here). You have the EXACT levels I had when I was just STARTING to feel better, and that took me 250mg of T a week to get those numbers. My numbers are LOWER than most of the guys I deal with, if you can believe that so, no, you numbers are NOT too high. On the contrary. You could try a significantly higher dose to see what affect it has and then lower gradually if required.

Rule #3: Don’t even post your estrogen because @systemlord will make you have nightmares about it. I can bring you men with DOUBLE those levels and there is no issue whatsoever. Watch this to learn more: Why You DO NOT Need Aromatase Inhibitors On TRT - YouTube

Rule #4: You’re not dialed in. This much is clear. Do daily dosing to keep levels as consistent as possible. Get your dose up higher to see what effect it has. If you start to ‘feel something’, stay there for a good 6-8 weeks and then assess. Don’t take anything else. No pregnenolone, no DHEA, no HCG, no AI, no vitamin D, no nothing. Testosterone ONLY. Get testosterone dose dialed in first. Experiment with ONE thing at a time. No other changes.

[vonko1988]

@dbossa

Rule #4: You’re not dialed in. This much is clear. Do daily dosing to keep levels as consistent as possible. Get your dose up higher to see what effect it has. If you start to ‘feel something’, stay there for a good 6-8 weeks and then assess. Don’t take anything else. No pregnenolone, no DHEA, no HCG, no AI, no vitamin D, no nothing. Testosterone ONLY. Get testosterone dose dialed in first. Experiment with ONE thing at a time. No other changes.

2 times here

[ncsugrad2002]

This forum needs a super heart button

[rabbit_ears]

Thanks Danny, I will try, not sure I will have much success though. As I said, my healthcare provider will work with me to an extent, but not sure she will be willing to up my dosage when my levels already read high (to the reference standard)

[systemlord]

@ncsugrad2002

This forum needs a super heart button

What we need is a button that providers a little electric shock to the user on the other end, I would be hitting buttons on some members frequently.

[unreal24278]

Many would do the same to you though.

I’m trying to be somewhat on you’re side here… but comments like this make it difficult. I understand you’re frustration, but lashing out at this point is highly counterproductive

[systemlord]

@unreal24278

I’m trying to be somewhat on you’re side here… but comments like this make it difficult.

I was totally kidding, it wasn’t meant as a serious comment. There is no frustration here, only a difference of opinion. I never took this thread as an attack and if it were, I’m fine with defending my position.

Maybe I need to start using emojis.

[unreal24278]

Oh… fair enough

#autisticunrealmoment

[louiststeinhil]

@rabbit_ears

Cialis started working again, so at least that’s a step in the right direction; but at $18/pill in Canada,

Can’t you get the generic tadalafil up there? Down here in the states I can get the generic for about $2 without insurance and slightly over $1 with.