5-4 Insurance Mandate Upheld

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:
Id like to say something to anyone talking to ZEB on this issue (waylon, etc.): you’re fighting a 10 headed beast of the internet, he has more time on his hands and more willingness to disregard what you say than almost anyone I’ve ever seen; it is a tragic quality, not a remarkable one. Be warned, you have nothing to gain; every head you cut off will grow back twofold. Your time spent on logic and reason would be better spent on witty insults he won’t understand, because in the end the only thing he really wants to do is call you a subhuman piece of excrement. And then a bigot. Do you understand?

[/quote]

I understand that you are an Internet coward.

You’ve chosen a nice way to take a cheap shot at me with no facts to back up the drooling you’ve been doing over Obama and his national health care plan. This way you don’t have to debate me on a single point. I shouldn’t be surprised knowing you as I do I would have suspected that you would choose such a cowardly act.

And I’m still waiting for some sort of proof from any of the Obama droolers that Obamacare, something that punishes small business and threatens people with fines and jail time is actually a good thing for America. Schlenkatank, what do you really understand about America anyway? Not much.

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
My dad is a moderate democrat who currently serves as a county commissioner. As part of his job, he’s involved in the budget process and finances of running a county hospital, including costs of indigent care and so forth. He’s a great guy and I have a lot of respect for his opinions.

He’s strongly AGAINST this new healthcare plan. [/quote]

Interesting…

So far I have a list of people against this:

  1. People that have insurance
  2. People in hospital administration
  3. People that understand economics

lol

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:
Id like to say something to anyone talking to ZEB on this issue (waylon, etc.): you’re fighting a 10 headed beast of the internet, he has more time on his hands and more willingness to disregard what you say than almost anyone I’ve ever seen; it is a tragic quality, not a remarkable one. Be warned, you have nothing to gain; every head you cut off will grow back twofold. Your time spent on logic and reason would be better spent on witty insults he won’t understand, because in the end the only thing he really wants to do is call you a subhuman piece of excrement. And then a bigot. Do you understand?

[/quote]

I understand that you are an Internet coward.

You’ve chosen a nice way to take a cheap shot at me with no facts to back up the drooling you’ve been doing over Obama and his national health care plan. This way you don’t have to debate me on a single point. I shouldn’t be surprised knowing you as I do I would have suspected that you would choose such a cowardly act.

And I’m still waiting for some sort of proof from any of the Obama droolers that Obamacare, something that punishes small business and threatens people with fines and jail time is actually a good thing for America. Schlenkatank, what do you really understand about America anyway? Not much.

[/quote]

Your only debating strategy is forking off every argument into multiple tangents while slipping in childish insults with intent to lure the person back in to defend those insults.

[quote]Waylon wrote:
Shlenk, yes I get it, just trying hard to give some one the benefit of the doubt. Every post, responding to Zeb, since the first has simply been trying to clarify the first post. I will take your implied suggestion, and not feed the “issue.”[/quote]

Or, you could respond to the questions that I posed, but that might be difficult. Joining the coward Shlenk is far easier. Certainly the decision is yours.

Either way take care.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Your only debating strategy is forking off every argument into multiple tangents while slipping bla bla bla bla I’m not too bright you know.[/quote]

Sufiandy…the man that Thunderboldt has called PWI’s dumbest poster. Hmm…maybe…

If you feel like jumping in and countering any of my points feel free. I can fit you in between two or three other legitimate posters.

I preferred Help! to Revolver, and both to most of the following albums. But do find some wonderful gems amongst the likes of Yellow Submarine and other heavy drug influenced albums.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
My dad is a moderate democrat who currently serves as a county commissioner. As part of his job, he’s involved in the budget process and finances of running a county hospital, including costs of indigent care and so forth. He’s a great guy and I have a lot of respect for his opinions.

He’s strongly AGAINST this new healthcare plan. [/quote]

Interesting…

So far I have a list of people against this:

  1. People that have insurance
  2. People in hospital administration
  3. People that understand economics

lol[/quote]

  1. People that have jobs. If ~30 million American’s don’t have insurance and the US population is about 311 million, then just under 10% of American’s don’t have insurance. This PROBABLY correlates to the 8% unemployment rate to some extend. So pitbull’s old comment about “only military, people with high paying jobs, and politicians have good insurance” is nonsense. 280 million Americans have insurance, so unless the top 90% of American jobs are considered “high paying, military, or political office jobs”, then my argument stands.

Remember that the youth think this is a great idea but still have coverage because of mommy and daddy, so they don’t count. Once they bear the burden of adulthood their minds will change.

Okay those against the mandate. If the US could drop its current healthcare system and replace it exactly with some other countries system, which country would you want to copy?

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Okay those against the mandate. If the US could drop its current healthcare system and replace it exactly with some other countries system, which country would you want to copy?[/quote]

No one - there is not one worth copying.

What we need to do is implement policy to reduce health care costs and make helath insurance prtability by disentangling it from employment. Give insurance companies competitive pressure across state boundaries and breack up local monopolies.

Then, after this is accomplished, see who is left over that cannot get insurance - and devise a plan to help them. But that pool of people should be small and the costs manageable.

That’s the great idiocy of Obamacare - how can you complain that the law is supposed to help people who can’t afford insurance when you never try, as an initial matter, to make it more affordable in the first place? If affordability is truly the problem, well, simply try to make it more affordable…right?

Obamacare - and its Orwellian official title, done to maximize marketing - did the opposite: it simply decided to expand coverage without worrying about affordability. That’s the point: the “Affordable Care Act” had nothing to do with affordability - it was an attempt at universal coverage, affordability be damned. It;s the most dishonest bill in modern history.

Every sane person - including legions of moderate Democrats - knew (and know) that if you want to fix health care, you have to prioritize bringing the cost down. Period. Any serious reform will have to begin there. The only thing that Obamacare did was set back real health care reform for years.

[quote]Waylon wrote:
Shlenk, yes I get it, just trying hard to give some one the benefit of the doubt. Every post, responding to Zeb, since the first has simply been trying to clarify the first post. I will take your implied suggestion, and not feed the “issue.”[/quote]

Just trying to help you out. You can do as you like. The main issue is he challenges you to “prove me wrong”–this will literally drain your life away. The idea is if he can’t be proven wrong he’s right apparently. Obviously a logical fallacy.

The other thing he loves to do is deride you and belittle you with names–sometimes foul. It’s ad hominem and it’s childish.

Also, he loves to do a version of strawman where he takes the time to separate your quotes and then bash them down piece by piece so that he ignores the significant points and takes the rest of your words out of context.

Normally I’d say he’s a troll, but the amount of time and effort he takes to do all this leads me to think he has problems.

In spite of everything, I hope the best for him.

So be warned, lol.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Okay those against the mandate. If the US could drop its current healthcare system and replace it exactly with some other countries system, which country would you want to copy?[/quote]

No one - there is not one worth copying.

What we need to do is implement policy to reduce health care costs and make helath insurance prtability by disentangling it from employment. Give insurance companies competitive pressure across state boundaries and breack up local monopolies.

Then, after this is accomplished, see who is left over that cannot get insurance - and devise a plan to help them. But that pool of people should be small and the costs manageable.

That’s the great idiocy of Obamacare - how can you complain that the law is supposed to help people who can’t afford insurance when you never try, as an initial matter, to make it more affordable in the first place? If affordability is truly the problem, well, simply try to make it more affordable…right?

Obamacare - and its Orwellian official title, done to maximize marketing - did the opposite: it simply decided to expand coverage without worrying about affordability. That’s the point: the “Affordable Care Act” had nothing to do with affordability - it was an attempt at universal coverage, affordability be damned. It;s the most dishonest bill in modern history.

Every sane person - including legions of moderate Democrats - knew (and know) that if you want to fix health care, you have to prioritize bringing the cost down. Period. Any serious reform will have to begin there. The only thing that Obamacare did was set back real health care reform for years.[/quote]

Agreed.

The question–left completely unanswered by Baucus and company–is how to expand coverage and reduce or contain aggregate costs. The answer should be easy: reduce aggregate demand for medical services.

But as a matter or policy, how does Congress accomplish this? The answer should be to empower consumers by making them pay progressively for services: the educated consumer will choose not to pay for marginally worthless services. (Trust me: much of what is offered as medical care is baseless and worthless.)

This is not news. The interested reader will find 40 years of literature by Mark V.Pauly, and many others.

Instead, what policy have we? In the last 3 years, as a small businessman, my premiums have gone up 50%, largely to pay for the anticipated costs of the “Affordable Care Act.” For any employer, it will become a reasonable choice to end health insurance benefits, and kick part of the cash back to the employees and say, “You are on your own. Go find an insurance exchange.” The exchanges will function to limit access to services, and just because someone has an insurance card does not mean that they will find a “provider.”

(I do not endorse Krauthamer’s argument. Now that Mr. Chief Justice Roberts has redefined the ACA as a piece of taxation, what activity or lack thereof will be untaxable by Congress? By his flawed opinion, the restraint placed on the Commerce Clause now is replaced by COngress’ power of taxation to intrude unrestrained into every private behavior.)

The ACA expands coverage–by fiat, and not well–and gives away entitlements–without funding them publicly–and empowers insurance companies only–without meaningful restraint. Thunderbolt is correct: in no way was any real national health care need met by this monstrosity of a law.

In short, despite what sufiandy or BrianHanson would like to believe, the mere fact that Congress passes a law and the President signs it, does not make it happen, and the worst of “unanticipated” outcomes have been written into this law. Economic forces cannot be wished away.

Were Congress to repeal the Laws of Gravitation today, I would not walk out of a tenth-story window tomorrow.

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:
Also, he loves to do a version of strawman where he takes the time to separate your quotes and then bash them down piece by piece so that he ignores the significant points and takes the rest of your words out of context.
[/quote]

He is not the only one to do that and its annoying. Each response turns into 5 separate pieces you need to answer and any response to those ends in 5 more. Of course you don’t have time to play that game so later unanswered responses come back as avoiding the question followed by an insult.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Okay those against the mandate. If the US could drop its current healthcare system and replace it exactly with some other countries system, which country would you want to copy?[/quote]

No one - there is not one worth copying.

What we need to do is implement policy to reduce health care costs and make helath insurance prtability by disentangling it from employment. Give insurance companies competitive pressure across state boundaries and breack up local monopolies.

Then, after this is accomplished, see who is left over that cannot get insurance - and devise a plan to help them. But that pool of people should be small and the costs manageable.

That’s the great idiocy of Obamacare - how can you complain that the law is supposed to help people who can’t afford insurance when you never try, as an initial matter, to make it more affordable in the first place? If affordability is truly the problem, well, simply try to make it more affordable…right?

Obamacare - and its Orwellian official title, done to maximize marketing - did the opposite: it simply decided to expand coverage without worrying about affordability. That’s the point: the “Affordable Care Act” had nothing to do with affordability - it was an attempt at universal coverage, affordability be damned. It;s the most dishonest bill in modern history.

Every sane person - including legions of moderate Democrats - knew (and know) that if you want to fix health care, you have to prioritize bringing the cost down. Period. Any serious reform will have to begin there. The only thing that Obamacare did was set back real health care reform for years.[/quote]

This, this, this, and this!

Aside from the complete constitutional issue clusterfuck, this is it. There was ZERO serious attempt to actually take a logical approach to resolving any cost problem in the first place. You could have passed any number of small, 50 page bills for tort reform, creating competition pressure, bring costs down in any number of a dozen ways at least-- and NONE of those bills would have been seriously controversial, or had any Constitutional questions raised at all. But the current bill is blatant pandering, power grab, and grandstanding. And it’s terrible fucking policy to boot–no reasonable bill can be longer than War and Peace and still maintain enough flexibility to create a workable (real) solution.

easy steps toward a solution were easily visible to almost anyone with a brain–including MANY on the left side of the aisle–but it wasnt as “sexy” a solution as the idea of national coverage for the ideologues.

Sufi,

I’m pretty sure that they are all private messaging some obscure e-book entitled “Parsing and Obfuscation: A Way to Win Any Debate Without Ever Thinking.” It comes complete with a series of clever catchphrases like “You’re posing a strawman argument.” “That’s a False Dichotomy.” or “You’re a Socialist.”. I actually enjoy trying to predict the response to anything I post.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Okay those against the mandate. If the US could drop its current healthcare system and replace it exactly with some other countries system, which country would you want to copy?[/quote]

No one - there is not one worth copying.

What we need to do is implement policy to reduce health care costs and make helath insurance prtability by disentangling it from employment. Give insurance companies competitive pressure across state boundaries and breack up local monopolies.

Then, after this is accomplished, see who is left over that cannot get insurance - and devise a plan to help them. But that pool of people should be small and the costs manageable.

That’s the great idiocy of Obamacare - how can you complain that the law is supposed to help people who can’t afford insurance when you never try, as an initial matter, to make it more affordable in the first place? If affordability is truly the problem, well, simply try to make it more affordable…right?

Obamacare - and its Orwellian official title, done to maximize marketing - did the opposite: it simply decided to expand coverage without worrying about affordability. That’s the point: the “Affordable Care Act” had nothing to do with affordability - it was an attempt at universal coverage, affordability be damned. It;s the most dishonest bill in modern history.

Every sane person - including legions of moderate Democrats - knew (and know) that if you want to fix health care, you have to prioritize bringing the cost down. Period. Any serious reform will have to begin there. The only thing that Obamacare did was set back real health care reform for years.[/quote]

Agreed.

The question–left completely unanswered by Baucus and company–is how to expand coverage and reduce or contain aggregate costs. The answer should be easy: reduce aggregate demand for medical services.

But as a matter or policy, how does Congress accomplish this? The answer should be to empower consumers by making them pay progressively for services: the educated consumer will choose not to pay for marginally worthless services. (Trust me: much of what is offered as medical care is baseless and worthless.)

This is not news. The interested reader will find 40 years of literature by Mark V.Pauly, and many others.

Instead, what policy have we? In the last 3 years, as a small businessman, my premiums have gone up 50%, largely to pay for the anticipated costs of the “Affordable Care Act.” For any employer, it will become a reasonable choice to end health insurance benefits, and kick part of the cash back to the employees and say, “You are on your own. Go find an insurance exchange.” The exchanges will function to limit access to services, and just because someone has an insurance card does not mean that they will find a “provider.”

(I do not endorse Krauthamer’s argument. Now that Mr. Chief Justice Roberts has redefined the ACA as a piece of taxation, what activity or lack thereof will be untaxable by Congress? By his flawed opinion, the restraint placed on the Commerce Clause now is replaced by COngress’ power of taxation to intrude unrestrained into every private behavior.)

The ACA expands coverage–by fiat, and not well–and gives away entitlements–without funding them publicly–and empowers insurance companies only–without meaningful restraint. Thunderbolt is correct: in no way was any real national health care need met by this monstrosity of a law.

In short, despite what sufiandy or BrianHanson would like to believe, the mere fact that Congress passes a law and the President signs it, does not make it happen, and the worst of “unanticipated” outcomes have been written into this law. Economic forces cannot be wished away.

Were Congress to repeal the Laws of Gravitation today, I would not walk out of a tenth-story window tomorrow.

Oddest thing… Romney did this first, and when he did it, it wasn’t a tax, it was a penalty.

Romney has been in part running on his tax record, but if it turns out this is indeed a tax and not a penalty, we need to revisit what a penalty is and a tax is on quite a few things on his record… Is this a good thing?

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Oddest thing… Romney did this first, and when he did it, it wasn’t a tax, it was a penalty.

Romney has been in part running on his tax record, but if it turns out this is indeed a tax and not a penalty, we need to revisit what a penalty is and a tax is on quite a few things on his record… Is this a good thing?

[/quote]

Actually, it would be, but I doubt a campaign run by Democrats wants this discussed publicly.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
Oddest thing… Romney did this first, and when he did it, it wasn’t a tax, it was a penalty.

Romney has been in part running on his tax record, but if it turns out this is indeed a tax and not a penalty, we need to revisit what a penalty is and a tax is on quite a few things on his record… Is this a good thing?

[/quote]

Actually, it would be, but I doubt a campaign run by Democrats wants this discussed publicly. [/quote]

But don’t you think the double standard is super odd? Democrat does it and every republican calls it a tax, turn on Fox news and see what they are saying about it. Conveniently forget to mention Romney does the exact same thing but it’s not considered a tax.

So, lets hear it Republicans. Splain it to my dumb ass.

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:

Just trying to help you out. You can do as you like. The main issue is he challenges you to “prove me wrong”–this will literally drain your life away. The idea is if he can’t be proven wrong he’s right apparently. Obviously a logical fallacy.[/quote]

Not only have you lost your spine but your thought process is no better than it’s been over the past couple of years.

If I say “X” is a fact you have a few choices.

  1. You can try to prove it wrong with liberal talking points and fail such as you’ve tried in the past.

  2. You can try to prove it wrong with good evidence and succeed.

  3. You can do an end run around direct confrontation and whine to other posters like a little school girl, or in this case Schlenkatank.