What happened to pre-vention? What happened to pills, one of the cornerstones of womens liberation. You have public education about gays and what not, but then nothing about contraception? Maybe abortion for non-medical reasons should be a bit more expensive and preventive methods cheaper.
[quote]orion wrote:
… there really is no reason to equate a fertilized egg with a human being.
[/quote]
Why not? It’s the same individual organism. That’s a scientific fact.
[quote]orion wrote:
I see business opportunities.
Abortion cruises for well off women, the coat hanger industry will absorb the demand from all others. [/quote]
Well, then the abortion rate would shrink incredibly.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
I see business opportunities.
Abortion cruises for well off women, the coat hanger industry will absorb the demand from all others. [/quote]
Well, then the abortion rate would shrink incredibly. [/quote]
Or the charter ship industry would soar.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
… there really is no reason to equate a fertilized egg with a human being.
[/quote]
Why not? It’s the same individual organism. That’s a scientific fact.
[/quote]
Maybe, but so is a braindead person.
In the end a human being is more than a mere lump of cells with human DNA.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
I see business opportunities.
Abortion cruises for well off women, the coat hanger industry will absorb the demand from all others. [/quote]
Well, then the abortion rate would shrink incredibly. [/quote]
Or the charter ship industry would soar. [/quote]
Oh, it’d soar, but the abortion rate would dramatically shrink.
[quote]orion wrote:
In the end a human being is more than a mere lump of cells with human DNA.[/quote]
Outside of religious faith, that IS all a human being is. Every human action in this material universe goes directly back to man being a lump of cells with human DNA. Poetry is the product of a lump of cells.
Its get’s almost religious, in a twisted way, watching pro-aborts struggle with some immaterial component the fetus just has to be lacking. As if they’re on the verge of saying something like, “well, the human soul has yet descended from the soul factory.” Same organism.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
In the end a human being is more than a mere lump of cells with human DNA.[/quote]
Outside of religious faith, that IS all a human being is. Every human action in this material universe goes directly back to man being a lump of cells with human DNA. Poetry is the product of a lump of cells.
Its get’s almost religious, in a twisted way, watching pro-aborts struggle with some immaterial component the fetus just has to be lacking. As if they’re on the verge of saying something like, “well, the human soul has yet descended from the soul factory.” Same organism.
[/quote]
That completely ignores the existence of emerging patterns like consciousness.
My clipped fingernails are as likely to write poetry as a brain dead person or an embryo.
[quote]orion wrote:
That completely ignores the existence of emerging patterns like consciousness.
[/quote]
Consciousness is also the result of a lump of cells. That is all human beings are. An individual organism, a lump of cells, with human DNA. The Orion fetus is the SAME INDIVIDUAL organism as the libertarian Orion adult poking away at his keyboard today. There is no switch-a-roo at some point in the pregnancy, swapping out some placeholder organism for the Orion organism. Pro-aborts and their silly superstitions…
And why, oh why, do you people try to make the fetus the equivalent of the braindead? Do you not understand the two very different states of being, and their outcomes? Do you have to sign a “play dumb” agreement when you join the pro-abort movement?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
That completely ignores the existence of emerging patterns like consciousness.
[/quote]
Consciousness is also the result of a lump of cells. That is all human beings are. An individual organism, a lump of cells, with human DNA. The Orion fetus is the SAME INDIVIDUAL organism as the libertarian Orion adult poking away at his keyboard today. There is no switch-a-roo at some point in the pregnancy, swapping out some placeholder organism for the Orion organism. Pro-aborts and their silly superstitions…[/quote]
Maybe so, but just because a lump of cells might develop consciousness it does not change that it has not done so yet.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
And why, oh why, do you people try to make the fetus the equivalent of the braindead? Do you not understand the two very different states of being, and their outcomes? Do you have to sign a “play dumb” agreement when you join the pro-abort movement?[/quote]
Because both are not conscious.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
So basically, fake “women’s health clinics” are allowed to pretend that they provide abortion services when in reality they don’t, and then string women along until the pregnancy is too far along to terminate? If I remember correctly, that’s what this measure was intended to prevent.[/quote]
I think you forgot Roe v. Wade, there is no ‘too late’ except after they have given birth to the child according to the Supreme Court.
Are you mad? It seems that you’re pissed off that a pregnancy center’s first priority might be to actually bring the pregnancy to full term and keep both the mother and child healthy, rather than you know killing babies and endangering the mother? Kind of goes against pregnancy to be killing babies.[/quote]
Roe V. Wade provides for limits and heavy restrictions on late term abortions. It would help if you knew what you were talking about.
I’m not mad, I just think you’re a largely hypocritical imbecile who thinks far too highly of his intellectual abilities. If you actually cared about abortion endangering the lives of pregnant women, you wouldn’t be against (as you already clearly stated in this thread) abortions in situations where the pregnant woman’s life is in jeopardy if she carries the fetus to term. I’m not pissed about pregnancy centers having the health of the pregnant woman in mind. I’m saying it’s hypocritical for someone who ascribes to a religious text that clearly states “THOU SHALT NOT LIE” to support a so-called “crisis pregnancy centers” masquerading as abortion clinics in order to attempt to coerce and misdirect women away from the aforementioned advertised services that brought them there in the first place. If you believe that every ball of cells with human DNA is a human-regardless of viability or consciousness, then surely you believe that every intentional mistruth is a lie-regardless of the intent behind it. What was that the other poster was saying about “shifting morality”?
Abortion doesn’t “go against pregnancy”. Pregnancy is a biological process, nothing more. Abortion goes against your personal religious views, but, according to your own posts on this board, so does being emotionally candid with your spouse before marrying them.
[quote]
“And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn
in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his
throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and
all the firstborn of cattle.” (Exodus 12:29)
“Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill
every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls
who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”
(Moses - Numbers 31:17)
“And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his
sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly
destoyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city
we left none to remain:” (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)
“And the LORD said unto me, ‘Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all
his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as
thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon’…
And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon,
utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.”
(Deuteronomy 3:2-6)
“This is what the LORD says: Now go and smite Amalek, and
utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both
man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass …’
And Saul … utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.”
(1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)
“And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that
Uriah’s wife bare unto David, and it was very sick… And it came to
pass on the seventh day, that the child died…” (2 Samuel 12:15-18)
“And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the
way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him,
and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of
the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare
forty and two children of them.” (2 Kings 2:23-24)
“Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is
joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be
dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and
their wives ravished… Their bows also shall dash the young men to
pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye
shall not spare children.” (Isaiah 13:15-18)
“Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that
they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with
cities… For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts…”
(Isaiah 14:21-22)
“And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and
the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have
mercy, but destroy them.” (Jeremiah 13:14)
“The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. The Lord hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof.” (Lamentations 4:10-11)
“And the Lord said unto him,… And to the others he said in mine hearing,
Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither
have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children,
and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin
at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the
house.” (Ezekiel 9:4-6)
“Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with
her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I
will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that
I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every
one of you according to your works.” (Jesus - Revelation 2:22-23)
“O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be,
that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that
taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” (Psalms 137:8-9)
“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled
against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be
dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.” (Hosea 13:16)
“Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is
joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their
houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.” (Isaiah 13:15,16)
“Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they
shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare
children.” (Isaiah 13:18)
I am the LORD your God, … And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:13,29)
“And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy
sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee,
in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress
thee:… And toward her young one that cometh out from between
her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall
eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith
thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.” (Deuteronomy 28:53-57)
“Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD,… And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one of the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.” (Jeremiah 19:6-9)
“Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you and sons
shall eat their fathers…I will send famine and wild beasts against you
and they shall rob you of your children; pestilence and blood shall pass
through you; and I will bring a sword upon you. I, the Lord, have
spoken.” (Ezekiel 5:10, 17)
“The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. The Lord hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof.” (Lamentations 4:10-11)
“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have
rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will
be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.” (Hosea 13:16)
“At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and
everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open
their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women.”
(2 Kings 15:16)
Judges 11:29-39 (English-NIV)
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and
Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced
against the Ammonites.
And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: “If you give the Ammonites into my
hands,
whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in
triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it
as a burnt offering.”
Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them
into his hands.
He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far
as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to
meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was
an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter.
When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh! My daughter! You
have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the
LORD that I cannot break.”
“My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the LORD. Do to
me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your
enemies, the Ammonites.
But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam
the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”
“You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the
girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry.
After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he
had vowed. And she was a virgin. From this comes the Israelite custom
“Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with
her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I
will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that
I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every
one of you according to your works.” (Revelation 2:22-23)
[quote]
Looks like your god is pretty OK with killing live children, let alone unviable, unconscious, symbiotic lumps of cells.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
And why, oh why, do you people try to make the fetus the equivalent of the braindead? Do you not understand the two very different states of being, and their outcomes? Do you have to sign a “play dumb” agreement when you join the pro-abort movement?[/quote]
Because both are not conscious.
[/quote]
And? We ignore the vast difference in developmental capabilities of the two humans?
I think I know what you guys are going to say but I’ll ask anyway.
What are your thoughts on Economist Stephen Levitt linking the legalization of abortion to the decrease in crime rates over the years?
^ It’s long but skip to the conclusion at the end.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
That completely ignores the existence of emerging patterns like consciousness.
[/quote]
Consciousness is also the result of a lump of cells. That is all human beings are. An individual organism, a lump of cells, with human DNA. The Orion fetus is the SAME INDIVIDUAL organism as the libertarian Orion adult poking away at his keyboard today. There is no switch-a-roo at some point in the pregnancy, swapping out some placeholder organism for the Orion organism. Pro-aborts and their silly superstitions…[/quote]
Maybe so, but just because a lump of cells might develop consciousness it does not change that it has not done so yet.[/quote]
To be technical, it’s not simply a lump of cells. It’s much more elegant than that. See, it already is an individual human organism. You are supporting the killing of human individuals, depriving them of their right to grow and develop faculties the adult has. There’s no break in the developmental chain. It’s the same organism until it dies. In the womb, or on the toilet.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I think I know what you guys are going to say but I’ll ask anyway.
What are your thoughts on Economist Stephen Levitt linking the legalization of abortion to the decrease in crime rates over the years?
^ It’s long but skip to the conclusion at the end.[/quote]
Oh, what a sad, sad, culture we are when we start looking to increasing abortion rates as growing crime-fighting enthusiasm. So very progressive. And let’s be honest. Our decreasing crime rate hopes are largely based off of killing the next generation of minorities (especially blacks). Sorry folks, I’m not riding in that bus.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I think I know what you guys are going to say but I’ll ask anyway.
What are your thoughts on Economist Stephen Levitt linking the legalization of abortion to the decrease in crime rates over the years?
^ It’s long but skip to the conclusion at the end.[/quote]
Oh, what a sad, sad, culture we are when we start looking to increasing abortion rates as growing crime-fighting enthusiasm. So very progressive.[/quote]
?
That’s not what’s being said.
What I’m asking is do you and others in this thread believe that a real side effect of legalized abortion is a reduction in the crime rate?
No one wants to increase the abortion rates to fight crime. That’s silly.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
And why, oh why, do you people try to make the fetus the equivalent of the braindead? Do you not understand the two very different states of being, and their outcomes? Do you have to sign a “play dumb” agreement when you join the pro-abort movement?[/quote]
Because both are not conscious.
[/quote]
And? We ignore the vast difference in developmental capabilities of the two humans? [/quote]
Yes we do.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
That completely ignores the existence of emerging patterns like consciousness.
[/quote]
Consciousness is also the result of a lump of cells. That is all human beings are. An individual organism, a lump of cells, with human DNA. The Orion fetus is the SAME INDIVIDUAL organism as the libertarian Orion adult poking away at his keyboard today. There is no switch-a-roo at some point in the pregnancy, swapping out some placeholder organism for the Orion organism. Pro-aborts and their silly superstitions…[/quote]
Maybe so, but just because a lump of cells might develop consciousness it does not change that it has not done so yet.[/quote]
To be technical, it’s not simply a lump of cells. It’s much more elegant than that. See, it already is an individual human organism. You are supporting the killing of human individuals, depriving them of their right to grow and develop faculties the adult has. There’s no break in the developmental chain. It’s the same organism until it dies. In the womb, or on the toilet. [/quote]
Au contraire, I do not think that they have any such right.