41% of Births end in Abortion...100%

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
281

[quote]ephrem wrote:
This is not about you, what you think, what you want and what you believe. You are not in a better position, just because you’re male, to make judgment calls about sexuality than females.

I know it’s hard to accept for you Chris, but you’re not in control here.

And that’s the issue that really drives these discussions: the issue of control. You sugarcoat it by saying, “think of the children!”, but in the end you and your ilk can’t stand to see women making decisions independent of men.[/quote]

I find your insinuation lacking in evidence and quite humorous. I am a realist, you can talk arbitrarily about woman’s freedom provided by post-modern thought. However, all I see is that women have turned in marriage for sexual bondage, that of modern concubinage. Though they lack the benefits of concubines of past, I would say.

The only one who is having a hard time is you, my fellow. You are scared that your post-modern thinking has no ground. Well it doesn’t, I am afraid to inform you. Moreover, I will not sit here and accept something that has only sat in the halls of academia for less than 200 years, when I hold in my hands something that has held the test of time since antiquity.

I think it is absurd that you make such claims, when all you and your ilk have done is produce a bondage of all people and pat them on the back with a cry for your hard won ‘freedom.’ And, all on their way to self-destruction.

When women started, they wanted freedom and they wanted to be equal to men. What they failed to realise is that to be equal to men, they would have to lower themselves to man’s level. In the process they gained no dignity, no respect from their counter parts. In fact, from the majority of men they lost respect. Modern man in general holds not for a moments notice that he may have to sacrifice and work for a woman. It is there for the taking and because there is no sacrifice he throws it like his weekly garbage.

To say I want to control women is absurd. Want I want is for women to respect themselves as much as I respect them. All I see in this ‘freedom’ is exploitation, and usually not equal exploitation.

282

Right; you have your opinion on the matter and you want women to follow suit. That’s my point all along Chris.

It’s not your place to even want to be in a position that you can claim moral dominance in these matters.

As long as you see women as lesser beings because they don’t adhere to your views on how women should behave, you invalidate anything you say on this issue.

283

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right; you have your opinion on the matter and you want women to follow suit. That’s my point all along Chris.

It’s not your place to even want to be in a position that you can claim moral dominance in these matters.

As long as you see women as lesser beings because they don’t adhere to your views on how women should behave, you invalidate anything you say on this issue.

[/quote]

You obviously have not the first clue when it comes to the complicated issue of Catholics and women you protestant heretic, its not easy to infantilize grown men to a degree that keeps a madonna/whore dichotomy going and yet keep them somewhat productive and functional.

So, I would prefer it if you did not tinker with this artistic piece of mindfuckery, you can really only make it worse.

284

it appears men are the only ones on this thread agruing against abortion… intresting.

285

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:
it appears men are the only ones on this thread agruing against abortion… intresting.[/quote]

And do you think men are more biased, or less biased on the subject?

286

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right; you have your opinion on the matter and you want women to follow suit. That’s my point all along Chris.

It’s not your place to even want to be in a position that you can claim moral dominance in these matters.

As long as you see women as lesser beings because they don’t adhere to your views on how women should behave, you invalidate anything you say on this issue.

[/quote]

Red Herring.

287

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Contrary to what all socioeconomic statics indicate, I’ve never had an abortion.

That’s because I knew about and had access to the different types of birth control. I eventually figured out that the best on first me would be an IUD because I wouldn’t have to remember to take it and it wouldn’t fuck up my hormones. It’s basically the next best thing to getting sterilized.

Now you’d think it’d be easy to get ahold of something that would go so far to prevent abortions. However, even with insurance at the age of 22, I had to go to numerous clinics to find one that would even recommend it let alone put it in. Several refused to do the procedure just because I’d had more than one partner in the previous year.

If you truly want abortions to stop, start rallying for more education about birth control methods where people don’t have to think instead of bitching about this and then making it a pain in the ass to take the more responsible route.[/quote]

You can’t have women running around thinking for themselves, and taking control of their reproductive cycles. Nothing good can come from women who decide for themselves what’s best for them, especially educated women [shudder].

No, you best stay at home with the kids and let the man of the house do the thinking for you, after all: father knows best.
[/quote]

What does that have to do with the taking of a human life? We’re not talking about ‘feelings’ or the societal position of women in the western world today.
The question is when does human life begin?

Is it ok to take a human life simply because it has not reached a certain point of development?

Whether or not women are superior or inferior to men is 100% irrelevant.

288

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right; you have your opinion on the matter and you want women to follow suit. That’s my point all along Chris.

It’s not your place to even want to be in a position that you can claim moral dominance in these matters.

As long as you see women as lesser beings because they don’t adhere to your views on how women should behave, you invalidate anything you say on this issue.

[/quote]

You obviously have not the first clue when it comes to the complicated issue of Catholics and women you protestant heretic, its not easy to infantilize grown men to a degree that keeps a madonna/whore dichotomy going and yet keep them somewhat productive and functional.

So, I would prefer it if you did not tinker with this artistic piece of mindfuckery, you can really only make it worse. [/quote]

Yeah it’s real complicated. Is abortion the taking of a human life or not? If it is, then it is morally wrong and should be a practice that is stopped. If it is not, then it’s a-ok to do with frequency and vigor.

289

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right; you have your opinion on the matter and you want women to follow suit. That’s my point all along Chris.

It’s not your place to even want to be in a position that you can claim moral dominance in these matters.

As long as you see women as lesser beings because they don’t adhere to your views on how women should behave, you invalidate anything you say on this issue.

[/quote]

You obviously have not the first clue when it comes to the complicated issue of Catholics and women you protestant heretic, its not easy to infantilize grown men to a degree that keeps a madonna/whore dichotomy going and yet keep them somewhat productive and functional.

So, I would prefer it if you did not tinker with this artistic piece of mindfuckery, you can really only make it worse. [/quote]

Excuse me?! I’m neither protestant nor a heretic, thank you very much. As for the other stuff you wrote, nods head in agreement

290

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right; you have your opinion on the matter and you want women to follow suit. That’s my point all along Chris.

It’s not your place to even want to be in a position that you can claim moral dominance in these matters.

As long as you see women as lesser beings because they don’t adhere to your views on how women should behave, you invalidate anything you say on this issue.

[/quote]

Simple question, not looking for a dodge here, when does human life begin?

291

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

You can’t have women running around thinking for themselves, and taking control of their reproductive cycles. Nothing good can come from women who decide for themselves what’s best for them, especially educated women [shudder].

No, you best stay at home with the kids and let the man of the house do the thinking for you, after all: father knows best.
[/quote]

What does that have to do with the taking of a human life? We’re not talking about ‘feelings’ or the societal position of women in the western world today.
The question is when does human life begin?

Is it ok to take a human life simply because it has not reached a certain point of development?

Whether or not women are superior or inferior to men is 100% irrelevant. [/quote]

I wrote to Chris that he sugarcoats his position by shouting, “think of the children!”. You do the same thing pat. I don’t believe you when you say you’re only concerned about [fetal] human life.

Ofcourse you could very well be sincere, and if you are, i’m sorry for not being able to believe you, but being on PWI for too long has made me cynical about many posters’ motivations.

292

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right; you have your opinion on the matter and you want women to follow suit. That’s my point all along Chris.

It’s not your place to even want to be in a position that you can claim moral dominance in these matters.

As long as you see women as lesser beings because they don’t adhere to your views on how women should behave, you invalidate anything you say on this issue.

[/quote]

Simple question, not looking for a dodge here, when does human life begin?[/quote]

With a level of brainfunction that indicates awareness of being.

293

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right; you have your opinion on the matter and you want women to follow suit. That’s my point all along Chris.

It’s not your place to even want to be in a position that you can claim moral dominance in these matters.

As long as you see women as lesser beings because they don’t adhere to your views on how women should behave, you invalidate anything you say on this issue.

[/quote]

You obviously have not the first clue when it comes to the complicated issue of Catholics and women you protestant heretic, its not easy to infantilize grown men to a degree that keeps a madonna/whore dichotomy going and yet keep them somewhat productive and functional.

So, I would prefer it if you did not tinker with this artistic piece of mindfuckery, you can really only make it worse. [/quote]

Aww, is someone throwing a temper tantrum? Can’t make the taking of human lives jive with your so-called non aggression principle? Poor thing.

294

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right; you have your opinion on the matter and you want women to follow suit. That’s my point all along Chris.

It’s not your place to even want to be in a position that you can claim moral dominance in these matters.

As long as you see women as lesser beings because they don’t adhere to your views on how women should behave, you invalidate anything you say on this issue.

[/quote]

Simple question, not looking for a dodge here, when does human life begin?[/quote]

With a level of brainfunction that indicates awareness of being.
[/quote]

So, you aren’t a human life while asleep?

295

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right; you have your opinion on the matter and you want women to follow suit. That’s my point all along Chris.

It’s not your place to even want to be in a position that you can claim moral dominance in these matters.

As long as you see women as lesser beings because they don’t adhere to your views on how women should behave, you invalidate anything you say on this issue.

[/quote]

Simple question, not looking for a dodge here, when does human life begin?[/quote]

With a level of brainfunction that indicates awareness of being.
[/quote]

So, you aren’t a human life while asleep?[/quote]

My personhood has been previously established beyond a shadow of a doubt. Being asleep does not invalidate that personhood.

296

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right; you have your opinion on the matter and you want women to follow suit. That’s my point all along Chris.

It’s not your place to even want to be in a position that you can claim moral dominance in these matters.

As long as you see women as lesser beings because they don’t adhere to your views on how women should behave, you invalidate anything you say on this issue.

[/quote]

Simple question, not looking for a dodge here, when does human life begin?[/quote]

With a level of brainfunction that indicates awareness of being.
[/quote]

So, you aren’t a human life while asleep?[/quote]

My personhood has been previously established beyond a shadow of a doubt. Being asleep does not invalidate that personhood.
[/quote]

When does one acquire personhood?

Do you have any empirical guides that show that self awareness equals human life? A dog has self awareness and is not actually a person.

There is actually no way to determine that even a born baby has ‘self awareness’, it’s mostly responding to stimuli like hunger or exhaustion. So if it were found that a born baby was not self aware, would it be permissible to kill them?

297

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right; you have your opinion on the matter and you want women to follow suit. That’s my point all along Chris.

It’s not your place to even want to be in a position that you can claim moral dominance in these matters.

As long as you see women as lesser beings because they don’t adhere to your views on how women should behave, you invalidate anything you say on this issue.

[/quote]

Simple question, not looking for a dodge here, when does human life begin?[/quote]

With a level of brainfunction that indicates awareness of being.
[/quote]

So, you aren’t a human life while asleep?[/quote]

Or passed out drunk or in a coma. Asleep is debatable.

298

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

My personhood has been previously established beyond a shadow of a doubt. Being asleep does not invalidate that personhood.
[/quote]

When does one acquire personhood?

Do you have any empirical guides that show that self awareness equals human life? A dog has self awareness and is not actually a person.

There is actually no way to determine that even a born baby has ‘self awareness’, it’s mostly responding to stimuli like hunger or exhaustion. So if it were found that a born baby was not self aware, would it be permissible to kill them?[/quote]

Asked and answered pat.

Are you selfaware? Do you see yourself as equal to [having] human life? If you answer “yes”, ask the same question to a zygote.

A new born may not be self aware as we are since the mental constructs that make us a person aren’t made/learned yet, that’s true. To kill a baby that’s been brought to full term is an awful waste of investment, don’t you think?

But you’d have to make these assinine comparisons in order to maintain the illusion that a clump of cells should have the same rights a fully grown woman has. That a clump of cells superceeds the rights of a fully grown woman, even.

We could discuss the philosophical nature of being a human. I think that’s much more interesting that yet another abortion thread.

Don’t you?

299

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Understand science before you claim something ‘silly’. Unless you agree with the literal tearing apart limb from limb and therefore slaughter of innocent children shrug

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Contrary to what all socioeconomic statics indicate, I’ve never had an abortion.

That’s because I knew about and had access to the different types of birth control. I eventually figured out that the best on first me would be an IUD because I wouldn’t have to remember to take it and it wouldn’t fuck up my hormones. It’s basically the next best thing to getting sterilized.

Now you’d think it’d be easy to get ahold of something that would go so far to prevent abortions. However, even with insurance at the age of 22, I had to go to numerous clinics to find one that would even recommend it let alone put it in. Several refused to do the procedure just because I’d had more than one partner in the previous year.

If you truly want abortions to stop, start rallying for more education about birth control methods where people don’t have to think instead of bitching about this and then making it a pain in the ass to take the more responsible route.[/quote]

Except, that birth control mentality has led to an increase abortions (oh well, the condom broke I’ll just get an abortion). As well, artificial birth control is immoral itself and since the ends can never justify the means that is not an option.

Even more so, is that a lot of artificial birth control are abortifacient. So the difference is that you don’t know you induced abortion, instead of having to set up an appointment with a clinic to get an induced abortion.[/quote]

I get the whole abortion debate, but saying birth control is immoral is just…silly. [/quote]
[/quote]

Maybe you should go back and read what I wrote? I said restricting the use of condoms on moral grounds is silly, not that opposing abortion on moral grounds is silly.

300

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
I get the whole abortion debate, but saying birth control is immoral is just…silly. [/quote]

How is it “silly?”[/quote]

Using condoms prevents the transmission of STDs, and prevents children from coming into the world when their parents aren’t able to properly nurture and raise them. It also helps prevent overpopulation, which is a real issue in countries like China.