37, Hypogonadal, 580mg/Test/Wk Without Sides - How to Continue?

Pharma / TRT
1

Hi guys,

so I was diagnosed with hypogonadism (long story - in short, I was like my batteries were down to 2%, fatigue all the time etc - turned out my natural Test levels at 36 were under 150, in a lab range from 300…1200; my E was so low it was below the measurable threshold) last October. Everything else was checked - no thyroid issues etc. etc.

I started TRT end of October, but had to change doctors as my endo was clueless and underdosed, shutting down my natural production while not providing enough exogenous test.

I deicded to self-medicate and basically found a doc that said “look, I check your blood, you take what you think makes sense for you”, so I get pharma test (not pharma grade… original test from the pharmacy).

Important to notice, I’m 37 now, we have our 3 kids and decided to get sterilized, so the issue of my balls “functioning” is irrelevant to me.

After my “TRT restart” end of the year I decided “screw it, might as well start with a cycle before I go on life-long TRT anyway”. I’m fully aware that at my age, there’s no “back to normal” and I will be on TRT for the rest of my life, which doesn’t bother me at all.

So I decided to up my dosage to 250mg/week at first, got my bloodwork and was at around 2000 t (range 300…1300) with my E at the upper End, but within limits.

I had zero sides, so after 2 months I upped that to 437mg at first (250ml vials, 1/4 of that injected daily, so I end at that strange number). Felt great, still zero sides. So I decided to take it a step further and I’m up to 580 now (I do 1/3 of a vial daily now, so that’s 250/3 = 83mg/day * 7 = 583mg.

I still have zero sides except a bit of acne - I’ll check my blood soon but I’ve been donating blood every 3 months for the past years anyway, so hematocrit won’t be much of an issue for me, I was low-ish anyway.

after about 5 months now, I’m starting to see nice results, and I feel great. I’ve been doing sports all my life, but never made any significant gains - I assume I’ve been a low-test guy all my life - so I’d like to “ride the wave” for a bit longer.

My diet is on spot (I lost 18kg before I started TRT from 100kg to around 80kg, I’ve gained back around 10kg with constant bf of around 15%, so assume that’s mostly muscle mass) - I’ve been on a permament ketogenic diet for almost 2 years and play to stay on it, just like my wife, as it does us well. We basically eat mostly green vegetables, lots of meat, lots of cheese etc…

I exercise 6 times a week (3 times strenghts training, in between the days cardio, 1 day off).

So in short - I feel great, I have no sides and I’m thinking about what to do next.

I’m tempted to stay on my current dose for maybe half a year more before I go down to a regular (higher-end… maybe 200 or 250mg) TRT dose permamently.

I don’t plan any PCT as I don’t have sides, will be on TRT anyway and I don’t see any reason in taking any extra meds I don’t need.

What are the pros/cons of my plans of staying “on” a bit longer, assuming my blood work stays in rnage?
From the studies I’ve read, up to 600mg seems rather safe…

When I go down, shall I come down gradually (like 500, 350, 250) or doesn’t it matter?

Thanks for your opinions.

Cheers

2

IS this a long winded troll? Have troll levels increased?

1 Like
3

If it’s not a Troll ignorance levels are def increasing.

1 Like
4

Not a troll, at all. What in my message makes you think so?

I’ve explained my situation, I’ve explained that the usual concerns of long-term affecting my hormonal axis / fertility etc. are irrelevant for me due to my age and as I’m going to be on trt ANYWAY, and there are plenty of opinions that the ranges I’m talking about are within safe levels.

I’ve found various threads that discuss year-round cycles, but they all seem to focus on concerns that you would “ruin your own test production permamently”, which is irrelevant for me as it was ruined BEFORE I started.

So please - give me your educated opinion, if you have one?

5

Year round high doses=perma blasting.

This must be what you are finding information on on the internet. Im not against perma blasting if it’s done properly (running 600mg of test all year isn’t properly) and generally these guys are competing.

I’d like to get more in depth about pros and cons and proper ways but from your post I can tell your no where near educated enough and I’m worried any info I provided would be helping you hurt yourself.

Thats why I suggest you not do it.

Also even done properly there can be major health implications especially if your not monitoring things like a hawk. And even a lot of pros suggest against this method.

Were getting too far off topic of what you need to focus on tho. Just blast and cruise normally bro and if you so desire try other compounds for a normal length of time once you educate yourself on them.

1 Like
6

What is a TrT restart? TrT doesnt restart anything, actually does the opposite. Shuts down natural production.

“my endo was clueless and underdosed, shutting down my natural production while not providing enough exogenous test”

You are clueless. Any amount you take of exogenous was going to shut down your natural test. What was prescribed for TrT dose? Do you have blood test to back up claim of being “under-dosed”? How long did you run the protocol your Endo prescribed? Most men will change or quit the protocol to early not realizing it could take a a few months to fall into place.

Pharma is pharma. To my knowledge there is no difference between pharma grade vs pharma test. That is literally the same shit. The distinction comes between pharma or UGL.

Being low is just as bad as being high. If you were low they couldnt take blood donations from you anyways.

500mg per week split into 2 shots is the normal recommended dose for cycle on these forums. Thats pretty much the norm. That cycle is usually ran for 10, 12, 14 maybe 16 weeks. It is recommended for the most part to get your TrT on track first, then start blasting and cruising.
You dont need a PCT, that is your TrT. You need to do some simple google searches for yourself and find out the pros and cons of extended usage of Test. There is no need to taper in small increments like that. The only real cons I see would be your body building a tolerance and the Test not being as effective in the future at smaller doses.

1 Like
7

Hi guys, thanks for your answers. appreciate it.

@zeek1414 - I never said I wanted to permablast forever. I asked if staying on for a bit longer would have any significant downsides.

@newbvet - with “trt restart” I meant that after my original endo’s failed attempts, I “restarted” myself. Fully aware that trt doesn’t restart anything.

That’s actually the problem I had - he initially set me on 80mg every 2 weeks. I told him from the beginning all that would do is to suppress what little production I have left, and do not much more. He insisted to try it for 6 weeks, which we did. some of the most miserable weeks I ever had - and yes, we did some bloodwork and it showed that my test levels were even WORSE than before , something <100 if I remember correclty. His answer: "Well - I think we’re overdosing here, we’re suppressing your own production too much… so let’s turn it down to 60mg every two weeks. That’s when I realized he has zero experience with this.

I did search, but as said - it mostly all relates to the long-term effects on the endogenous production of test, which would be negative - but that’s of no concern. other than that, I found very little reliable information…

8

My own Edno had enough sense to start me at 100mg a week. That put me at 800’s for test levels. 200’s is putting me in the 1200’s. But you have to stick to a protocol and have patience. There is going to be a period during TrT where it gets better then worse then better with some leveling out.

The great feeling at the beginning is usually called a honeymoon phase. That is the period in which natural production hasnt shut down and still getting the benefits of exogenous. Then natural shuts down, body starts adjusting, E2 can over inflate which can feel pretty bad in mood swings. That is why it is important to stay the course.

Apologies about the jumping of the gun in labeling a troll. There are a lot of trolls that wonder through here. I would research more and lower your dose, get a stable TrT dose rolling for a year or so, then blast and cruise.

9

You’ve been on for five months and said you’d like to keep going for “half a year more”. In our world 11 months is a permablast. Hence the reason Zeek gave you the answer that you got.

1 Like
10

ehhhhhhhhhh, there’s risks to using such doses for prolonged periods of time. If you were to say “I’m getting great results, I’ll cruise at 250mg/wk for half a year” it’d be more feasible, but cruising on 5-600mg/wk is ridiculous.

There are numerous risks associated with you’re decision, of the most serious being detrimental effect towards you’re cardiovascular system. The potential for heart enlargement and ultimately deterioration in cardiac function/ increased susceptibility to lethal arrhythmias is among the most concerning effect of AAS. Neurotoxicity also remains a concern, however I don’t buy the “high degree of neurotoxicity” argument to AAS. Sure, in high doses (and certain compounds like tren), I’m sure neurodegeneration will occur to some degree, however I don’t believe AAS itself will DIRECTLY and significantly lower one’s IQ/ cognitive capability to a degree that it would impair someones natural ability to function like a normal healthy adult in the workplace.

Furthermore, staying on for so long presents downsides, staying on so long will eventually downregulate newly created and previously unregulated androgen receptors and thus gains will taper off as the body reaches a new homeostasis, if this didn’t occur, then everyone on 500mg/wk would be Ronnie Coleman if they stayed on for long enough.

If you’re a massive tank of a man who is competing and thus requires a higher dose (as you use) to maintain Dorian Yates esque levels of muscle mass or Eddie Hall levels of strength it’d be understandable and justifiable, otherwise it’s pointless and rather counterproductive as you’ll eventually have to take 1 gram+/wk to gain what you’ve otherwise been able to gain by blasting and cruising on far lower doses due to excess androgen receptor down-regulation.

600mg is rather safe for short durations of time (and without prolonged use). We have data showing 600mg is rather safe for up to 20 wks, however when you cycle such doses over and over and over and over and over again (or for durations like eleven months), a study looking over one cycle becomes somewhat irrelevant as you aren’t replicating the conditions of these studies. Furthermore no followup was done on these studies to view the health status of the participants and the sample sizes are rather small.

TLDR

  • Acutely, large doses of hormones appear to be quite safe.
  • safety of large doses long term isn’t particularly known, but is certainly detrimental to longevity
  • What you’re doing is counter productive and will serve to potentially even lessen gains in the long run
11

Is there any scientific backing to this? Like any real studies showing person X used steroids at a high dose for 3 years and his gains stopped after 6 months due solely to androgen receptor down regulation?

I just don’t see how that’s a thing especially with the effects AAS have on androgen receptors. Especially when changing compounds and dosings a few times a year. I could see testosterone only at 600mg/week reaching a point where gains will slow down from the initial start of the cycle because of a new homeostasis but I don’t think it has anything to do with androgen receptor down regulation or as people say “frying your androgen receptors” i think its simply your body getting used to something.

You know way more about this type of shit so I’m not saying your wrong I just don’t see how it works. You have people who make 4 years transformations running ridiculous doses of multiple compounds year round a completely stupid thing to do but still if this androgen receptor thing were true you would think after a year surely of these doses progress would slow way down.

12

the body gets used to the excess androgen in the system. There isn’t per se a study showing downregulation of androgen receptor, however given the fact that a large portion of the hypertrophic stimuli from AAS is AR mediated and the fact that we have studies demonstrating a tapering of gains (to almost equilibrium) after a certain period of time on AAS, it’d make sense that down regulation exists.

Does “frying” androgen receptors exist? I don’t think so, when one comes off (lowers dose or comes off), androgen receptors WILL resensitise over time. The same thing happens with dopamine on AAS (that aren’t 19-nors as 19-nors interact with dopamine on a receptor level and deplete dopamine output/alter mRNA expression of dopamine).

People make these insane transformations over 3-4 years (Boston Lloyd for instance) because they keep increasing the doses over and over again until the doses are absolutely INSANE! If you keep increasing the dose and adding new compounds, the stimulus will still exist, thus extreme progress can continually be made. The same can be said with cocaine and ampethamine addicts and dopamine, they get used to the initial rush, keep increasing the amount they take to get the same result as the body is over time desensitised to the release of dopamine (and the mesolimbic system is somewhat fucked)

1 Like
13

That makes sense to an extent.

Im still not fully sold on it being an androgen issue. I think it’s more based on the body getting used to a compound especially in the case of testosterone something the body already produces naturally. You might start to notice gains tapering off after 16 weeks of test use but Id be willing to bet if you run tren for a year the gains stay pretty consistent. (I never suggest someone do that)

I think perma blasting can be done relatively safely and effectively. Without the constant increase of dosages but more so switching compounds and using the Androgenic /anabolic ratings of compounds in a way that keeps the body from becoming too accustomed to one solid or always increasing level.

Disclaimer: I probably wouldn’t try it, it would take way to much effort and monitoring but I do think it can be done.

14

Think u should research little more before you come to a place like this man ur talking to guys with 10+ years of gear , I’ve followed this conversation for a little bit and just watched but there is tons of threads on here with all the information you could want my advise is to read everything then ask questions or advise my first couple years im fourms I was directed to thread list and it’s worked what wasmt there u can find medical study’s on good luck man