I’d listen.
No. Maybe later.
No.
Maybe, but she is doing well, losing weight easily. Would suggest giving this more time as she is responding.
I’d be fine with current dose, as there are no adverse effects.
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Have the two of you discussed the irreversible side effects that she might have? I knew a number of women whose voice was deepened. They talked with what sounded like a slight “horse.”
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Yes, at length. Avoiding these changes is priority number 1.
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The voice change, from what I have seen, sneaks up on the woman without any warning.
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I’ve seen some say this and others say it starts as a scratchy throat. Either way, we would stop and address this immediately.
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I understand what you’re saying, but at the same time - we collectively know that TT values dont mean much, yet symptom relief and fT do.
I agree with getting the ED fT test done to more accurately monitor, but just as it is with estrogen levels in men - high for one is not necessarily high for another.
Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing where the line is until it is crossed. As with most TOT patients, the goal is to tip-toe up to the line then back away from it and maintain there. This is common practice for female AAS use in sports and i don’t see why we wouldn’t do that here either.
Please don’t take these words as literal as they sound; when she mentions wanting to increase dosage - i ask “is it worth deepening your voice, losing your hair, excess body hair, or clit growth?” And the answet is always “no”. She’d rather stay pretty than risk any of those so it’s a permanent deterrent.
BTW, many females that were running AAS and started noticing virilization symptoms were able to reverse these symptoms via stopping their dose. We’re both aware that not everyone is so lucky, but anecdotal experiences have shown that being vigilant and prompt about addressing these issues is a strong defense.
I’m aware your interests is to help keep her safe, and i appreciate that sincerely. This is my main focus and it is hers as well.
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This I didn’t know. I always thought that it was permanent. Logically, it makes sense that it would be permanent, but good to know.
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I think mild virilization often is reversed or partially reversed. Stuff like head hair thinning, or increased body or facial hair should reverse a bit or completely with a lack of androgens.
I’ve seen this with guys sometimes as well. Head hair gets a bit thicker off cycle. MTF patients often report their hair getting thicker as well.
I imagine the degree of reversal is individual, and depends on how bad the virilization was.
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I should add that all those women that I knew who took AAS were competing in bodybuilding. I should add the “hard” look that their face begins to change toward.
Sexually, I much prefer a soft feminine appearance and touch.
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A big difference here is that she is not interested in leaning out anywhere near that level. Improving body composition, yes. But she doesn’t even really want visible abs so I don’t think we will see too much, if any, of that ‘hard’ face.
Thank you for looking out
Update
Dr. Mike asked for further details on Thyroid and IGF-1 so we had these labs run.
I’m pretty clueless on Thyroid stuff so if any of you have input, it would be appreciated.
@anon18050987 @mnben87 @blshaw @highpull @systemlord @lordgains
EDIT: TSH panel here, value of 2.13 uIU/ml
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This is key. I’ve spoken to a number of women on the steroidsxx reddit sub and two women I know in real life who are on HRT (wives of friends of mine on TRT), and they all said that using daily Test Prop was not only the safest way to go but also led to the least amount of virilization and the best quality of life gains in terms of energy, sex drive, mood, etc…
One of the advantages of Prop for women especially, is that if you notice negative side effects she can stop or lower her dose and the Test will be ~90% out of her system in 3 half-lives, which is only 60 hours on Prop, as opposed to 3 weeks on Test Cyp.
Not only that but the fact that your levels come back down much faster and much lower on Prop is most likely what leads to lesser degrees of virilization.
If a woman I knew wanted to try TRT, I would start her on 0.5mg/day of Test Prop subQ or IM (subQ being probably a lot less daunting for the average woman, especially daily pins).
Not anything higher, and if her clinic gave her a script for 10+mg/day I would very strongly discourage her from starting that high until she gets test results back for much lower dosages and sees how she feels.
It all depends what she wants, but if she’s looking mostly for QoL gains and some gains in the gym but nothing crazy, 3.5mg/week could be more than enough. Also understand that after a certain Test level, her Estrogen production will start being negatively affected.
As far as virilization, there should be close to zero on that kind of dose, especially daily Prop. Again, I very very strongly recommend against using longer esters and/or less frequent injections.
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I might give her thyroid at 2.7, it would depend on her goals, symptoms, etc.
I cannot get the second report to enlarge.
Women are way more sensitive to thyroid hormones (fT3) than men. So even a small reduction in fT3 has bigger consequences when compared to males. The fT3 @ 2.7 is underwhelming.
UPDATE:
We have requested that instead of being prescribed Test C, that the wife goes on Test P - Clinic gave the okay so she will be using Test P.
- Test dosage has been dropped from 15mg/wk to 10mg/wk
- Var will be taken at 5.25mg/day (11.5mg tabs, split) for a couple months to help with fat loss (her goal, not mine - although I’m on board).
- Sermorelin was also offered, which she will start daily. I don’t recall dosage, but it was standard.
What is the recommended injection protocol for Test P?
Usually dosed twice weekly.
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Twice weekly Test P vs twice weekly Test C
It seems that would cause pretty severe highs and lows, do you ever have patients that would prefer more frequent injections for Test P?
? You posted topical, I was asking for Test Prop
Okay right, but she has been on Test injection and has felt great. She has also been on on 15mg/week without virilization so 10mg/week certainly isn’t a concern… We moved to Test P specifically to avoid any virilization that does happen, and mitigating the damage therein.
Are you suggesting to split dosage up into daily injections?
Reember that due to the ester, Test P is more potent than C. So while you dropped dosage, by switching, you are not dropping it as much. If it were me I would do EOD.
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