[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
“how could this possibly be?”. No idea. Don’t care.[/quote]
And this is why I can never respect you.
Sin is God’s ‘creation’ in the sense that he defines what behavior is good or evil. It’s like blaming legislators for deciding to make slave trafficking ‘wrong.’ Had they not, there’d be one less ‘wrong’ to have to worry about.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I agree that G-d is Alpha and Omega and he did create everything directly or indirectly, and nothing comes into existence outside His will[/quote]
Except you don’t. You go on to contradict yourself in the same sentence.[/quote]
How?[/quote]
“nothing comes into existence outside His will”
“I disagree that all our sins are G-d’s will”[/quote]
Well, if G-d is good, then sins (which are morally evil) cannot be his will, he can tolerate them because of the greater good or the net good, but not because he directly wills them, otherwise he would not be good.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Sin is God’s ‘creation’ in the sense that he defines what behavior is good or evil. It’s like blaming legislators for deciding to make slave trafficking ‘wrong.’ Had they not, there’d be one less ‘wrong’ to have to worry about.[/quote]
Eh, this seems like it could fall into the trap that Socrates set: Does G-d saying something good make it good? Or, does G-d say it because it is good?
EVERYTHING is good or bad because God defines and declares it as such and even what is evil and bad is absolutely decreed by Him or He is a contingent being and nothing more than a really big man. That is the pathetic little god of Aristotle and Aquinas. The God of scripture is absolute and utterly non contingent. Nothing, NOTHING, defies His ultimate will.
He does as He pleases in heaven and earth. His dominion is from everlasting to everlasting and nobody can stay His hand or question what He does. If there is even one particle of physical or metaphysical reality that exists for one single nanosecond in any way, circumstance or condition other than He ultimately wishes? Then He ain’t God and whatever thwarts His will IS. Say hello to man. Fallen, sinful, arrogant, insolent, rebellious and DEAD. Yet he fancies himself mightier than God who must wait to see what man will do before making His decisions. The rank heathen simply denies God outright rather than attempt to recreate Him in his own image like religious man does.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
EVERYTHING is good or bad because God defines and declares it as such[/quote]
If G-d said and declared it was good and morally obligatory for you to kill your children. Is it?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
EVERYTHING is good or bad because God defines and declares it as such[/quote]If G-d said and declared it was good and morally obligatory for you to kill your children. Is it?[/quote]Yes, and He has and it has been as you well know.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
EVERYTHING is good or bad because God defines and declares it as such[/quote]If G-d said and declared it was good and morally obligatory for you to kill your children. Is it?[/quote]Yes, and He has and it has been as you well know.
[/quote]
Wait did you say ‘it would be good’ and/or ‘that he has told you to kill your children’?
Not me Chris LOL!! God has commanded that a man kill His own son and the man considered good as evidenced by the fact that he would have done it had God not stopped him.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Not me Chris LOL!! God has commanded that a man kill His own son and the man considered good as evidenced by the fact that he would have done it had God not stopped him. [/quote]
But Abraham didn’t actually kill his son, he did not commit a mortal evil. He showed his faith.
Let’s take it to another example.
What you’re saying is that if G-d said that genocide against the innocent people of Michigan by a man’s hand is good, it is in fact good?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Not me Chris LOL!! God has commanded that a man kill His own son and the man considered good as evidenced by the fact that he would have done it had God not stopped him. [/quote]
But Abraham didn’t actually kill his son, he did not commit a mortal evil. He showed his faith.
Let’s take it to another example.
What you’re saying is that if G-d said that genocide against the innocent people of Michigan by a man’s hand is good, it is in fact good?[/quote]If God commanded it, it is designed to bring Him glory maybe in ways I don’t understand. However, God cannot contradict Himself and by definition the new covenant in Christ’s blood precludes that God would so directly order any more.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I agree that G-d is Alpha and Omega and he did create everything directly or indirectly, and nothing comes into existence outside His will[/quote]
Except you don’t. You go on to contradict yourself in the same sentence.[/quote]
How?[/quote]
“nothing comes into existence outside His will”
“I disagree that all our sins are G-d’s will”[/quote]
Well, if G-d is good, then sins (which are morally evil) cannot be his will, he can tolerate them because of the greater good or the net good, but not because he directly wills them, otherwise he would not be good.[/quote]
“nothing comes into existence outside His will”
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Not me Chris LOL!! God has commanded that a man kill His own son and the man considered good as evidenced by the fact that he would have done it had God not stopped him. [/quote]
But Abraham didn’t actually kill his son, he did not commit a mortal evil. He showed his faith.
Let’s take it to another example.
What you’re saying is that if G-d said that genocide against the innocent people of Michigan by a man’s hand is good, it is in fact good?[/quote]If God commanded it, it is designed to bring Him glory maybe in ways I don’t understand. However, God cannot contradict Himself and by definition the new covenant in Christ’s blood precludes that God would so directly order any more.
[/quote]
I don’t think you’re understanding what I am saying. Let me ask you again, if he changes the Fifth Commandment that thou shalt not murder. Is it good? If it is, logically then G-d really isn’t good, because he just said a moral evil was good. That is Islam’s god, Allah he is pure will and the only reason they say Allah is good is for their own survival, hardly out of love.
G-d saying that it is good does not make it good (He is not pure will), neither does G-d say it because it is good (that would appeal to a higher authority). It is a false dichotomy, the answer is the reason G-d says it is good, is because He is good.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I agree that G-d is Alpha and Omega and he did create everything directly or indirectly, and nothing comes into existence outside His will[/quote]
Except you don’t. You go on to contradict yourself in the same sentence.[/quote]
How?[/quote]
“nothing comes into existence outside His will”
“I disagree that all our sins are G-d’s will”[/quote]
Well, if G-d is good, then sins (which are morally evil) cannot be his will, he can tolerate them because of the greater good or the net good, but not because he directly wills them, otherwise he would not be good.[/quote]
“nothing comes into existence outside His will”[/quote]
Yes, it can G-d can tolerate it if he wishes. You can choose to disobey his will. Love does not force itself.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I don’t think you’re understanding what I am saying. Let me ask you again, if he changes the Fifth Commandment that thou shalt not murder. Is it good? If it is, logically then G-d really isn’t good, because he just said a moral evil was good. That is Islam’s god, Allah he is pure will and the only reason they say Allah is good is for their own survival, hardly out of love.
G-d saying that it is good does not make it good (He is not pure will), neither does G-d say it because it is good (that would appeal to a higher authority). It is a false dichotomy, the answer is the reason G-d says it is good, is because He is good.[/quote]I don’t think we’re really disagreeing too drastically on this one Chris. His divine character is absolutely good because it IS HIS divine character. He cannot violate His own character and is hence in every way good to the ultimate. God CANNOT command murder after condemning it or even before condemning it because leaving the taking of life in the hands of man unguided by Himself would be very bad because we are bad without His law.
All that said, not all killing is murder, even by man, and God being the creator and sovereign king of everything can kill or order to be killed in circumstances and for reasons that we cannot.
Bottom line? God cannot express Himself inconsistently with His own nature which is comprehensively and to the uttermost good indeed all the time. Therefore what He says or does is by immutable definition good, regardless of what we think, because it is Him saying or doing it.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
I’ve got news for you: these questions are not going be resolved on a bodybuilding forum. The fact that I don’t have a phd in neuroscience and cannot explain the origin of human consciousness does not mean that your book of ancient fairy tales is correct. I can’t explain how a computer works either…doesn’t mean I think Jesus lives inside the shiny box and makes the internet pages appear with God-magic.
Look I try to be respectful most of the time but in the interest of honesty I’m going to be frank. You have the mentality and naivete of a child. You dedicate a a substantial amount of your time (and I’m going to assume money as well) to following and defending a primitive mythology. A third-century middle-eastern shepherd can be excused for being stupid and needy enough to devote himself to Christianity (of Judaism or Islam or Zoroastrianism etc). An adult living in the industrialized West cannot. Biblical literalism is entirely dead. It has been killed a hundred million times over by centuries-worth of philosophers and scientists, all of whom are smarter than you. What does that leave you with? A book of metaphorical parables? In what way is that different from Aesop’s fables? Or Winnie the fucking Pooh?
Someone brought up the proof from cosmology. There is room for that kind of a discussion in the modern world–the great existential questions have not yet been answered (though they probably never will be). But stories in a book that was written by men thousands of years ago? Many of which are literally nothing more than recycled pagan fairy tales? If a supreme being is responsible for the existence of matter–and that is an unresolved philosophical question–how can you be so fucking arrogant to think that you know His most intimate wishes? What hubris men are capable of!
I sometimes hope that, for one instant just before your descent into the unending nothingness of death, you devout will realize that the storybook pearl gates of heaven do not and have not ever existed; that the philosophy with which you wasted your only single shot at existence is nothing more than a colossal sham; that gone forever are your miserable lives spent in exhausted devotion to the laughably anachronistic demands of a childish fairy-tale deity.
That is going to be one hell of a last thought.[/quote]
I get your thoughts…I happen to hold that book of fairy tales in high regard, but I know better then to beat an unbeleiver over the head with it. One has to believe in God before a book about God makes any sense…
Anyhow, the book isn’t recycled pagan stories, the similarities are purely coinsidental. Most of the OT is the story of the Jewish people. The rise and the fall. Now many of the old texts were passed by oral tradition, prior to writing them down. Therefore the grape-vine effect is in order.
Despite that it’s definatly, just as a piece of literature, a very interesting read. I’ll give the ancient hebrews one thing, they put it all down, the good, the bad and the ugly. So it’s an honest account.
BTW, nobody is a biblical literalist. Least of those who claim to be. Those who claim to be, only pick and choose what parts they want to take literally. Those parts they don’t like, are suddenly symbolic.[/quote]
Most of that story of the Jewish people is made up back story to justify later claims.[/quote]
Proof?[/quote]
Prove your horseshit about coincidences.[/quote]
I asked first… Na na na boo boo…
Bring a story and we can discuss. It’s a rather large book to discuss the whole thing simultaneously.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Prove it…Does the brain exist? Lay out your proof.
[/quote]
I’d have a MRI or catscan made of my head and mail you the photos if you’d accept that as proof?
[/quote]
No. I would accept that as evidence, not as proof. The reason you cannot prove it is that you cannot prove your senses are providing you with correct information. And even if they are, there can be no proof you are interpreting the information correctly. We ususally verify physical facts by consensus. If I say I see a red ball and you say you see a red ball, then we will likely agree that the red ball exists, but the doesn’t mean it does. It just means we agree it does. Now what I understand as a ball may be different then what you understand a ball is, and if you hopped into my brain, the red I am seeing you may describe as blue, who knows. In this respect, it doesn’t matter if we’re right, it only matters if we agree.
It could all be in a “mind” and you only have a delusion of having a body or a physical presence. It’s a study in epistemology, i.e. what can be known, not thought or inferred. See DesCartes, he started it…
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-modal/
Hell, and if some of the more recent quantum theories are right, physical matter is an illusion as it is basically, empty space and energy, nothing ‘physical’ about it.[/quote]
Semantics. In a court of law you’d seek evidence to prove a crime was committed.
An MRI, or opening up my skull is sufficient evidence to prove that my brain exists.
It does not matter if matter is condensed energy. It does not matter if perception is a mirage of the brain in order to be able to function.
Within our sphere of existence, perception is all there is.
[/quote]
In this realm, the semantics are an important distinction. This is not a court of law where your proof has to be reasonable. In this court, it has to be absolute. It is reasonable to based on your evidence, that your brain is a real entity…But it’s a correlational inference. Not a deductive truth.
Your last sentence is the most important, yes it’s all we have to know the physical world. Perception is malleable, perception can be wrong and often is… [/quote]
That i have a brain is not a deductive truth? How about mindaltering drugs? A lobotomy that changes a person? A braintumor that renders a person mute, or changes short-term memory?
[/quote]
No it’s not. You cannot prove to me you’re not a hallucination of my own making, much less you exist and have a brain. The chances are pretty good you do exist and have a brain, but you cannot deductively prove it. Logic fails physical matter in that sense. We can only infer physical realities. Further, we verify physical matter by consensus. For instance:
Let’s say I lock you in a room with another person. That person sees a table, describes it, goes up an feels it, and even manages to sit on it. On the contrary, you don’t see it, cannot feel it cannot verify it’s existence in any way. Who’s crazy, you, or him?
Most likely correct, but you still cannot prove it. There’s the rub, physical reality is not deductively provable and deduction is the purest form of truth.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
EVERYTHING is good or bad because God defines and declares it as such[/quote]If G-d said and declared it was good and morally obligatory for you to kill your children. Is it?[/quote]Yes, and He has and it has been as you well know.
[/quote]
A point many modern Atheists often make is the Genocide of the Amalekites, and specific commandments regarding the slaying of children for such offenses as failing to honor their parents.
And I have to admit this has been a major thorn in my paw for longer than when they brought it up.
To get specific, the bible apart from other Jewish histories which may provide some detail on all the circumstances reads that the task resided with the first King of Israel, Saul. The command was given to him through (correct me if I’m wrong) Samuel, who would have been Israel’s High Priest at the time, and specified that all were to be put to the sword, including the livestock.
Saul, according to the bible revised those plans sparing the livestock to be offered as a sacrifice to ‘G-d’ (In deference to Brother Chris) and also sparring the King, likely out of a misguided sense of Compassion.
To underscore the completeness with which G-d had wanted his instructions obeyed in this matter, and the cost of any variance, Samuel comes and harshly reprimands Saul, announcing that because of this and other ‘exceptions’ to the direct will of G-d, he is to have his Kingship handed to another (Inevitably David). Samuel then cruelly hacks the Foreign King to death with a sword to complete G-d’s express will.
The reluctance on the part of Saul would suggest to many that even HE did not understand the cruelty he was commanded to perform at the time. Is it any wonder that thousands of years later the rest of us are scratching our heads as well. It does not surprise me that many now ascribe BOTH Good and EVIL to G-d.
[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
EVERYTHING is good or bad because God defines and declares it as such[/quote]If G-d said and declared it was good and morally obligatory for you to kill your children. Is it?[/quote]Yes, and He has and it has been as you well know.
[/quote]
A point many …
[/quote]
And to let you know, I do NOT consider myself an Atheist. However I did come to a point where I could no longer ignore many of the rational arguments presented against the ideas of G-d’s ultimate ‘goodness’ and flawless nature as they are presented in Scripture.
I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian religion with a VERY literal interpretation of Scripture. I have recently been publicly ‘announced’ as no longer a member, and am now forever ‘shunned’ by my parents, brother, half my friends, etc. They will never speak to me again.
I know this because I had not nor have any of my family talked to my Uncle for over 25 years.
[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:
[quote]Vires Eternus wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
EVERYTHING is good or bad because God defines and declares it as such[/quote]If G-d said and declared it was good and morally obligatory for you to kill your children. Is it?[/quote]Yes, and He has and it has been as you well know.
[/quote]
A point many …
[/quote]
And to let you know, I do NOT consider myself an Atheist. However I did come to a point where I could no longer ignore many of the rational arguments presented against the ideas of G-d’s ultimate ‘goodness’ and flawless nature as they are presented in Scripture.
I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian religion with a VERY literal interpretation of Scripture. I have recently been publicly ‘announced’ as no longer a member, and am now forever ‘shunned’ by my parents, brother, half my friends, etc. They will never speak to me again.
I know this because I had not nor have any of my family talked to my Uncle for over 25 years.
[/quote]
That’s very sad. I am sorry to hear that. I hope they open their hearts one day. I never understood how people who claim to be Christian act so unchristian. Unfortunately, it happens all the time.