3 Month Update - Changing Regimen

TRT
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I’m not a novelist nor do I feel like writing a detailed analysis that my college advanced chemistry professor would be proud of. Numbers are rounded and there are many approximations. So here it is.

I’m 36. I’ve been doing intense fitness for well over 10 years. I’ve been on TRT for 3 months. Just had my labs. In a nutshell:

When I started:
Total Test - 800
Free Test - 5s
Height - 6’5.5"
Weight - 280lbs - 18% body fat

Now:
Total Test - 693
Free Test - 4
Height - 6’5.493532722
Weight - 269lbs - 15-16% body fat

I’ve been going to one of those awesome shopping center test experts. I’m currently on 200MG Test Cyp a week and I still take propecia, albeit at a lower dose. According to the numbers here, we might all say “how is that possible!?”. My test went down. Well, I decided to switch to a real medical doctor who specializes in anti-aging and wellness, and he spilled the beans (according to him).

  1. Less than 1% of people on TRT need anywhere near 200MG/week, and definitely not over
  2. Labs should be done a few days after injection to see the real effect. The reason these clinics do them when they do (a week after injection) is so they can justify increasing dose. Guys get big fast, lose weight, feel great, and keep coming because they think that’s how they’re “supposed to feel if they don’t have low T”. So when my labs are done I’m in a trough. Allegedly if my labs were done 3 days after my injection my total test would be well over 1000 and free would be much higher.
  3. These higher doses are fine for a short period but have very negative health effects long term, even prolonged 200mg/week. Particularly the damage it does to your heart.

He is changing my regimen to 100mg Cyp/week and 60mg Nandrolone/week + HCG. Then new labs in 60 days. He said the Nandrolone should drastically lower my SHBG which should free up T. I’ve known this doctor a very long time. Before he started this clinic he was a respected and well known surgeon at one of the best medical centers in the world. So I’d say he’s fairly credible.

His whole motto is proper hormone and health management. I"m excited to see where this takes me.

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Dude before you take nandralone you should read up on all the horrible experiences (deca dick) people have on it. I’m not sure about 60mg but it scares me enough that I wouldn’t chance it. Maybe @unreal24278 can let us know about nandralone in your case.

One of the reasons people test at trough is to see where your levels are at their lowest since that’s likely when you’ll feel the worst as well.

I would be very careful with this guy. I’m sure he’s a great surgeon but TRT doesn’t involve a scapel. Surgery has nothing to do with hormones. You want someone who is known for hormone therapy as much as this doc is known for surgery. In the end though you becoming knowledgeable is your best bet to getting better. A doc can only do so much.

A majority of people on TRT are doing around 200mg. Ask him to show you info showing 200mg specifically causes heart issues.

1 Like
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I’ve taken nandrolone in the past (not through TRT) and never experienced those issues. I ran it at 200mg/week for 10 weeks. The amazing thing was it seemingly healed up a knee pain issue I had, and I’ve read that it can help out joints. The catch is I was a lot younger so who knows how it will effect me now.

Your point about surgery and hormones is valid, but my point is he was known to be a prodigy in his early days. He retired from surgery approx 15 years ago and has only done hormone since. But for the past 30 years he’s been practicing anti-aging. So I’d say he has more experience than the majority of the people out there. He’s legit.

I think the big issue here is the elephant in the room. Most guys on TRT don’t really have low T. The interpretation of numbers have been manipulated to legally prescribe stuff. If you’re 38 years old, have a lot of muscle mass and 12% body fat on 240mg/week of Test, there’s nothing wrong with that. But to legitimately think that’s how you should be if you didn’t have low t is a bit ridiculous. I’m all for TRT, but I’m one who says be honest with yourself. Do you want to feel better, look better? Great. But very very few people truly have a low T problem.

According to the numbers I have extremely low free T. I was around a 5. However even before TRT I’m asked minimum twice a week by random people at restaurants or stores if I’m an NFL player. Not linemen, typically tight end or defensive end. I lift 2 hours a day 5 days a week. I can deadlift near 600lbs. All before TRT. And with what the experts say is low T. My reason for doing TRT? I definitely don’t feel like I have low T, despite what the hormone “experts” say. However, I know propecia has messed with me and I’d like to see if some therapy will counterbalance it.

Regarding the 200mg etc, there are numerous peer reviewed studies showing negative long term effects of TRT. The goal of the doctor I’m switching to is to mitigate the long term risks as much as possible, while still delivering maximum effect.

I’m not expert. I’m definitely curious to see what happens. The test should definitely offset any effects of the nandrolone, but only time will tell. I’ll report back.

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Your not going to get hormone health management blocking DHT, it’s needed for libido and many other things.

Propecia can cause Post Finasteride Syndrome!

You have high SHBG my friend, it’s binding up all your bioavailable testosterone and deactivating it lowering your FT. I see high SHBG men all the time on T-Nation with TT 800 and extremely low FT and astronomically high SHBG, I once saw a guy with natural TT of 1995 ng/dL with FT <3 pg/mL 6.8-21.5 pg/mL.

How is your liver?

This in no way should assume your doctor is knowledgeable in sex hormones because of his status as a surgeon at a prestigious hospital, most are still learning and we have along way to go in hormone knowledge because it’s been ignored for so long.

Your dosing in milligrams is irrelevant, only your testosterone and estrogen levels are important, not the bound TT value which has no effect on the bodies tissues. We men excrete testosterone via the kidneys, so some ends up in the urine.

The long term studies are part of the problem, oral testosterone was shown to cause cardiovascular problems, but these studies didn’t separate this finding from the injectable and topical formulations.

The standard of care for TRT is terrible, men are underdosed and kept suboptimal (<500) for fear of prostate cancer at high levels, these prostate cancer reports (not clinic studies) have been blasted out of the water as false.

When you look at the higher quality studies run by people who aren’t making gross errors, the risk of long term TRT by someone that knows what they’re doing is only benefit.

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I haven’t found any. Could you link a few of these?
You talk about high SHBG, but you don’t actually have a lab for it, so how do you know it’s high? Guessing based on free T is not too good. You did not have low T before, you have a little less at 200 mg. 100 mg is going to be worse, even with the 60 mg of Deca. It will probably help your joints, but is a terrible steroid in every other way. The real question is, did he do anything to find out what’s wrong with you?

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@justarandom

Under your logic you should take just enough T to get you to a total T of 300 because any more and you’re just abusing the system. 300 total T is considered normal and no one should need anymore than that. It doesn’t matter if someone with higher T levels than you had the exact same symptoms and using TRT would solve their problems because some their number is normal it would be abuse.

I know a guy that is low bf and jacked as hell that has a total T in the 100’s. Low T doesn’t necessarily mean no muscle mass.

Look up nandralone’s effects on neurotransmitters.

Please show one of the numerous studies that says 200mg has negative long term effects.

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I’ll search when I get bored and post.

I’ve had 4 labs done. The lowest my SHBG has been through all of therapy has been in the 120s. It’s usually in the 150s.

I’m just now making the switch. But I know a lot of people who go to him, all ages, and all are extremely happy. A few guys switched from Low T Clinics (who love high doses of test) to him and are happier.

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OMG, that’s pretty high and I don’t see levels this high often, SHBG is made in the liver.

Medications (SSRI’s, antidepressants), starvation (cutting) can cause high SHBG.

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Not exactly. But I will say from my perspective TRT is a lot like adults getting Adderall prescriptions. Very few people actually need it. If I panel a group of 10,000 35 year old males at random, and ask them if they experience “brain fog, low energy, trouble sleeping, lower sex drive, etc” compared to their teens and twenties, 100% of the participants will say “yes”.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers. Just stating my opinion.

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Yeah it’s super high. I don’t take any of those meds and I definitely don’t cut. I’m on a pretty balanced diet but eat well. I have no desire to ever be below a true 12-14% BF. I’m married, have kids, and to the average person who doesn’t lift I’m a monster. I feel good about how I look. I love steak and splurges, and I like drinking. The effort/reward to get to a true 10% body fat isn’t worth it to me. I stress “true body fat” because most people who tell me they’re 10 are really around 14ish.

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I guess it comes down to the word need. How do you define need? You technically will survive another day without TRT so you don’t NEED it. You’re taking it to improve your quality of life just like everyone else. I’m not even sure why you are arguing this anyway.

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When I hear friends doing it and they essentially communicate that on their 240 a week they now are just like a “normal” guy their age, I want to chuckle. That’s why. I didn’t realize people really think that. I always perceived it as you said: "You’re taking it to improve your quality of life just like everyone else. Not because you’re hypogonadal and literally “need it”.

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It is clearly overprescribed atm. For me, my Total T was around 270, for years. If my T was 800, I doubt I would have given any serious consideration to TRT.

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@justarandom
There’s not many folks doing 240mg TRT plus it effects everyone differently. Sort of like how 200mg still has you at 90 yr old man levels but has me at two 18 year old levels. The funny thing is you likely need 240mg to not have hypogonadal levels of testosterone if your 200mg labs are correct.

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What kind of numbers would a guy need to have in your opinion to need testosterone replacement? For me, a 43 year old guy, in 3 separate tests my total T averaged about 260. I had all the symptoms and a lot have improved drastically.

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lol at 200mg/wk causing cardiomyopathy or sudden cardiac death. It all depends on the individual, whilst 200mg/wk may elevate some to concentrations high enough to induce long term detriment. For the healthy individual, the majority of time this detriment will be sub-clinical, I base this merely off of nothing aside from the (likely) millions of men on 200mg/wk long term and current literature demonstrating a positive safety profile with 200mg/wk used for up to 18 months.

The deleterious effect on HDL cholesterol may elevate long term risk for heart disease (atherosclerosis), and perhaps in older individuals or after very, VERY prolonged use with such a dose subclinical cardiac dysfunction may develop (once again this depends on concentrations you’re brought up to AND sensitivity to androgens).

I don’t wish to weigh in here and intervene with the opinion/prescriptions doled out by a legitimate medical professional, his expertise (given he’s… actually a doctor), far outweighs mine. Look, nandrolone (19-nors in general), especially in predisposed individuals, can induce serious, deleterious neuropsychiatric side effects, the cardiac toxicity (and cellular toxicity in general) of nandrolone APPEARS to be above that of many other AAS… but 60mg? It’s a veeerrrrry low dose, I can’t imagine he will suddenly drop dead from such a dose… I could be wrong though.

Honestly, I might start using nandrolone soon, I graduate in a couple weeks and thus psychiatric stability may not be my first priority (rather pain management would take precedence). I’m waiting for screening and results of my shoulder to determine whether I should pull the plug or not. If I was to pull the plug I’d use 100-200mg/wk along with my 150mg TRT.

There is a minefield of broscience out here, specifically in relation to pharmaceutical combinations. Given that there is NO literature based on these combinations, we simply don’t know why X+Y=Z and so on. It appears (anecdotally), combining nandrolone with DHT/strong androgen amoreliates certain neurological sides (libido, depression etc) so perhaps I’d run 150mg test 100mg N 50mg D. If this was the case it’d probably be in relation to DHT and/ or DHT metabolites on neurotransmission (metabolites of DHT play pivotally important roles as neurosteroids important for psychiatric stability and optimal balance of neurotransmission). FUCK did I feel on top of the world when I used drostanolone… I felt like a happy, horny… table

Depends what’s wrong with my shoulder though, I’m preying it isn’t a degenerative tear and/or arthritis. At this point optimisation of health and longevity takes a back-seat for me, rather quality of life takes priority