[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Vegata: “Hey Zarbon, I know you whipped my ass like 2 days ago. Let’s fight again anyway.”
Zarbon: “Okay”
And Zarbon’s dead…
[/quote]
Well yeah. Vegeta was stronger than him lol. Zarbon was an imbecile and didn’t finish him the first time around.
Good thing he was dead for most of it.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
spar4tee, you know the gif from step brothers where the two main characters become “best friends?” I’m pretty sure the exact opposite just happened… I’m gonna need you to post some more badass videos of you setting new OHP pr’s so we can be friends again. Okay, thanks. [/quote]
I will. I promise.
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
Both Goku and Vegeta do that, so if you use that in favor of Vegeta, you also have to apply it to Goku.[/quote]
grumble grumble grumble…
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
He is 11 after all. Gohan bared the burden of an entire planet as a child. Vegeta never did that. He also saved Vegeta after the latter went full retard. [/quote]
Vegeta had an entire race on his shoulder’s and Gohan was forced into fighting Cell by his dad. Vegeta saved Gohan on Namek.
[quote]
Piccolo maintained his relevance towards the end of the Cell saga. [/quote]
debatable.
[quote]
He made Super Buu piss his pants. The weakest version of Buu made Vegeta his bitch. [/quote]
Shit… and like his dad someone else helped him get that power (supreme kai).
[quote]
He survived and held his own on his own for years. [/quote]
By hiding.
[quote]
Took shit from no one. He stood behind what he believed in and laid down his life for it. [/quote]
Yes he did. So did Yamcha, Krilling, and Tien at one time or another.
[quote]
Vegeta would’ve been killed by Krillin if not for Goku. Krillin. [/quote]
Only after like 50 characters fought him and Gohan somehow grew his tail back for a 2nd time.
Plus, let’s be real. There is no way Yajirobo sneaks up on Vegeta and cuts his tail off. Huge plot hole.
[quote]
I say Goku mostly because of the impact of his presence on Namek. He made threats obsolete. Became a SSJ, which was awesome. Then toyed with Frieza. I don’t cite this solely because of Goku’s strength but also for the mind games that he played with Frieza. Just completely fucked his reality. [/quote]
True. It only took his best friend being straight merced out to do.
[quote]
Building upon what you said here, I’m guessing you’re also open to SSJ God Goku and Whis. [/quote]
Whis yes, SSJ God Goku no. It took 5 other Saiyans, including Vegeta to make Goku a God. Once again, borrowed power.
[quote]
Then Trunks does right in front of him like nothing at age 8. lol [/quote]
Legacy son!
LAME!
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Vegeta: “Hey Goku, you need like 5 fucking minutes to make yet another spirit bomb. No problem I’ll fight Buu. No biggie, he’s way stronger than both of us, but fuck it…”
[/quote]
Good thing he was dead for most of it.[/quote]
Ya, cause Mr. Badass is standing there raising the roof for a power boost, again…
I know the show is only 1 season in(I don’t read manga, I know it’s always ahead), but so far I think Captain Levi is pretty fucking badass.
Also I’m pretty high on Captain Yamamoto in Bleach. Everyone’s always on about Kenpachi and Aizen and whatnot, and old man Yammy just keeps doin his thing, sticking to his principles even if it means fighting your two eldest and most respected pupils, and cutting off his own arm in an attempt to kill the baddest of bad guys ever. And he does it all without whining or self pitying, self righteous speeches. Badass.
^This thread is about DBZ now!
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
He is 11 after all. Gohan bared the burden of an entire planet as a child. Vegeta never did that. He also saved Vegeta after the latter went full retard. [/quote]
Vegeta had an entire race on his shoulder’s and Gohan was forced into fighting Cell by his dad. Vegeta saved Gohan on Namek.
[/quote]
Vegeta was never responsible for the well-being of the Saiyan race. Ever.
Doesn’t matter how Gohan was put in the situation. He had to deal with it.
[quote]
[quote]
Piccolo maintained his relevance towards the end of the Cell saga. [/quote]
debatable.
How much power has Vegeta gained on his own? He got two Zenkai boosts on Namek through direct assistance from Goku, Krillin, and Dende. He trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber just like the others and still ended up weaker than Goku and Gohan.
[quote]
Better than dying like Vegeta.
[quote]
That’s only true for Tien.
[quote]
Doesn’t matter. At the end of the day, Goku saved his life.
[quote]
What’s your point?
[quote]
When Vegeta becomes SSJ God, he will have to do the same. Do you consider Goku absorbing the SSJ God energy and Beerus’s attack badass?
[quote]
Except Goten did it even easier… at a younger age… while training with Chi Chi. Goku’s legacy greater than Vegeta’s?
[quote]
LAME![/quote]
Eh.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Vegeta: “Hey Goku, you need like 5 fucking minutes to make yet another spirit bomb. No problem I’ll fight Buu. No biggie, he’s way stronger than both of us, but fuck it…”
[/quote]
Good thing he was dead for most of it.[/quote]
Ya, cause Mr. Badass is standing there raising the roof for a power boost, again…
[/quote]
A plan presented by Vegeta. Their only option. You seem to not like the spirit bomb. lol
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Vegeta: “Hey Goku, you need like 5 fucking minutes to make yet another spirit bomb. No problem I’ll fight Buu. No biggie, he’s way stronger than both of us, but fuck it…”
[/quote]
Good thing he was dead for most of it.[/quote]
Ya, cause Mr. Badass is standing there raising the roof for a power boost, again…
[/quote]
A plan presented by Vegeta. Their only option. You seem to not like the spirit bomb. lol[/quote]
It works (for God know’s what reason), but it isn’t badass.
[quote]red04 wrote:
I know the show is only 1 season in(I don’t read manga, I know it’s always ahead), but so far I think Captain Levi is pretty fucking badass.
[/quote]
Yeah Levi is one of the more badass characters in the series. There’s also Annie, Mikasa, Kenny (you’ll see), Hange, Erwin, Pixis, and Armin (wait for it). Ymir is pretty badass as well. Eren will hopefully be more badass soon.
[quote]
Also I’m pretty high on Captain Yamamoto in Bleach. Everyone’s always on about Kenpachi and Aizen and whatnot, and old man Yammy just keeps doin his thing, sticking to his principles even if it means fighting your two eldest and most respected pupils, and cutting off his own arm in an attempt to kill the baddest of bad guys ever. And he does it all without whining or self pitying, self righteous speeches. Badass.[/quote]
I find Zaraki to be the most badass out of that group in spite of certain logic holes. Genryuusai, while powerful, is actually pretty foolish. If you read the manga, you’ll see what I’m talking about.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Vegeta: “Hey Goku, you need like 5 fucking minutes to make yet another spirit bomb. No problem I’ll fight Buu. No biggie, he’s way stronger than both of us, but fuck it…”
[/quote]
Good thing he was dead for most of it.[/quote]
Ya, cause Mr. Badass is standing there raising the roof for a power boost, again…
[/quote]
A plan presented by Vegeta. Their only option. You seem to not like the spirit bomb. lol[/quote]
It works (for God know’s what reason), but it isn’t badass.[/quote]
I would prefer something else as well, which you have to admit, we did see in Battle of Gods.
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
Vegeta was never responsible for the well-being of the Saiyan race. Ever. [/quote]
Sure he was. He was the Prince after all and the last “elite” warrior. That fits the definition pretty well in my book.
[quote]
Doesn’t matter how Gohan was put in the situation. He had to deal with it. [/quote]
I think it does. Goku throws in the towel. Another reason he isn’t a badass. Gohan magically goes SS2 when a android he’s know for 5 minutes “dies.” Vegeta sees Trucks basically get murdered and he gets nothing because he’s the anti-hero of the show.
Come on man, of all the main character’s with the exception of maybe Piccilo Vegeta get’s the least number of “power boosts”. If you include Zenkai boosts (had to look that up) then I guess, but all of the Saiyans get them. How many Sensu beans does Goku take throughout the series for that quick boost? Vegeta take 2 I can remember maybe 3 or 4. Goku takes that many while taking his sweet ass time getting to Namek. Dende heals everyone on Namek at least once. Guru awakens Gohan and Krillian’s “inner” strength and Gohan still get’s another boost from the Kai’s. Goku sits in a recovery pod for half of the Freeza fight. Conveniently late, again! Piccilo merges with Nail and Kami. They all spend time in the Hyoerbolic time chamber.
Majin Vegeta is the only legitimate unfair power boost that Vegeta gets (unless you include GT, which don’t thin is canon?).
Plus the only Z warrior he is ultimately weaker than is Goku and he even surpasses Goku in Battle of the Gods until yet again Goku gets someone else’s power…
[quote]
Better than dying like Vegeta. [/quote]
Better, maybe. Not badass. Not for Saiyan anyway.
[quote]
That’s only true for Tien. [/quote]
How so. Yamcha dies fighting those green things. Krillin dies defending the earth like 15 times… Chatsue (sp that way wrong) sacrifices himself to fail at killing Nappa. I don’t see him mentioned.
[quote]
Doesn’t matter. At the end of the day, Goku saved his life. [/quote]
Vegeta saves Goku a number of times as well. Android 20 was choking him to death if I recall. So was Metal Cooler.
[quote]
What’s your point? [/quote]
That there is always an external force that boosts Goku’s power. It’s either someone dying (Krillin) or the earth’s energy (spirit bomb) the Saiyan’s fighting spirit (the 1st Broly movie) or becoming the Saiyan God. This rarely happens for Vegeta and he still maintains being the 2nd strongest by Battle of the Gods and as I said surpasses Goku (briefly).
[quote]
When Vegeta becomes SSJ God, he will have to do the same. Do you consider Goku absorbing the SSJ God energy and Beerus’s attack badass? [/quote]
No and I won’t even if the show has Vegeta do it too. We’ll see.
[quote]
Except Goten did it even easier… at a younger age… while training with Chi Chi. Goku’s legacy greater than Vegeta’s? [/quote]
Not greater, just legacy. At the end of DBZ Vegeta junior and Goku junior both go Super in the tourny at what looks like the same age.
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Vegeta: “Hey Goku, you need like 5 fucking minutes to make yet another spirit bomb. No problem I’ll fight Buu. No biggie, he’s way stronger than both of us, but fuck it…”
[/quote]
Good thing he was dead for most of it.[/quote]
Ya, cause Mr. Badass is standing there raising the roof for a power boost, again…
[/quote]
A plan presented by Vegeta. Their only option. You seem to not like the spirit bomb. lol[/quote]
It works (for God know’s what reason), but it isn’t badass.[/quote]
I would prefer something else as well, which you have to admit, we did see in Battle of Gods.[/quote]
Ya, I liked it.
Keeping with the OP, I think Yusuke Urameshi is pretty damn tough
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
Vegeta was never responsible for the well-being of the Saiyan race. Ever. [/quote]
Sure he was. He was the Prince after all and the last “elite” warrior. That fits the definition pretty well in my book.
[/quote]
Who did he protect? Who was he responsible for? His father did all of that then Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta leaving only a few survivors. Most of which were under Frieza’s employ. Vegeta had no say over anything Frieza decided for them.
[quote]
Goku only fought Cell so that Goku could see how Cell fought. Goku already knew he wasn’t strong enough to defeat Cell. That wasn’t his goal. He knew that Gohan with his hidden power released (SSJ2) could defeat Cell. That’s just being smart.
Vegeta wasn’t strong enough to become a SSJ2 to put it simply. 16’s death wasn’t the sole reason for Gohan’s transformation. It was just the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Zenkai boosts aren’t that easy to obtain. The Saiyan has to recover from severe injury in order to gain one.
These are Vegeta’s Zenkai boosts on Namek:
-After fighting Goku and the others on Earth
-After being beaten by Zarbon
-After being beaten by Recoome
-After having a hole blasted in him by Krillin
That’s more than anyone else at that time. I consider to count as power not gained through training.
Yes, they all spent time in the HTC. Goku and Gohan were the strongest after that. No “cheating”. No “borrowed power”.
Namekians fuse. That’s their thing lol. It’s funny to think about what would happen if all of the Namekians just up and fused. There’s actually some fanmade stuff regarding that in DB Multiverse.
Define unfair. Why does it matter if it’s fair?
Yeah GT isn’t canon.
That’s just how it is. Vegeta has only been stronger than Goku at three points in the series. His introduction, when he trained in the HTC before Goku, and his rage boost in Battle of Gods, which wasn’t permanent btw.
[quote]
Since we’re on this tangent, where was Vegeta when Frieza skullfucked his entire race? He was working for him. He continued to work for him for years. There’s nothing wrong with prioritizing survival until you are strong enough to do anything that matters.
[quote]
Yamcha got raped by a Saibaman. He didn’t sacrifice anything. He was just a failure. Krillin has died three times. Only twice in DBZ. He never sacrificed himself. He just got killed by someone stronger than him. Chiaotzu and Tien both sacrificed himself. Chiaotzu more so. You didn’t mention him, so I didn’t add him in.
[quote]
I won’t count movies in this. Most of them make Vegeta look worse especially Broly Legendary Super Saiyan. He does save Goku from 19. I am totally fine with that.
[quote]
If you’re counting emotional stimulus as external help, then I hope you realize that puts most SSJs in the same boat. It was, of course, Vegeta’s anger at Goku and Trunks being SSJs that pushed him into becoming one. The spirit bomb doesn’t boost Goku’s power. It’s literally a weapon.
I wonder if Vegeta would still be the second strongest if Gohan, Goten, and Trunks continued to train seriously.
[quote]
Okay.
[quote]
I see. That’s not canon. It also doesn’t even make sense.
Alright, I have a confession to make…
I do admit that I think Vegeta is the most badass. Yes. I do think that. I do think he’s even more badass than Goku himself…
But it’s a very biased opinion, as Vegeta, Me, and Napoleon Bonaparte (my role model in life), have the same narcissistic personalities.
Literally, if it weren’t for that fact, I would put Yujiro Hanma (the original topic of this thread) as the most badass ever…
I noticed that in a lot of Manga and Anime, the “badass” person is this dude with a lot of, what I would call “raw power”.
Examples: Naruto, with his fox spirit. Ichigo, with his hollow powers. Ippo Makunouchi, with his raw punching power. Edward Elric, with his ability to do alchemical things without dragging chalk on concrete.
Heck, they even have that in Western cartoons, like when that blue lady told the blue man, “You have a strong heart. No fear…”
Like those people, Yujiro had that. He had raw power, and he had it in ABUNDANCE.
But, like all heroes, that raw power was never enough to win the fight. They had to know how to use it to their advantage, the same way that Napoleon had to position his cannon in the right spots before bombarding Prussians bayoneteers. Yujiro was like that, but in a totally different tier.
Which is why I argue that he is technically the better badass compared to any anime character ever made.
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Not greater, just legacy. At the end of DBZ Vegeta junior and Goku junior both go Super in the tourny at what looks like the same age.
[/quote]
I see. That’s not canon. It also doesn’t even make sense. [/quote]
I guess that was GT now that I think of it.
[quote]BrianBonaparte wrote:
Alright, I have a confession to make…
I do admit that I think Vegeta is the most badass. Yes. I do think that. I do think he’s even more badass than Goku himself…
But it’s a very biased opinion, as Vegeta, Me, and Napoleon Bonaparte (my role model in life), have the same narcissistic personalities.
Literally, if it weren’t for that fact, I would put Yujiro Hanma (the original topic of this thread) as the most badass ever…
I noticed that in a lot of Manga and Anime, the “badass” person is this dude with a lot of, what I would call “raw power”.
Examples: Naruto, with his fox spirit. Ichigo, with his hollow powers. Ippo Makunouchi, with his raw punching power. Edward Elric, with his ability to do alchemical things without dragging chalk on concrete.
Heck, they even have that in Western cartoons, like when that blue lady told the blue man, “You have a strong heart. No fear…”
Like those people, Yujiro had that. He had raw power, and he had it in ABUNDANCE.
But, like all heroes, that raw power was never enough to win the fight. They had to know how to use it to their advantage, the same way that Napoleon had to position his cannon in the right spots before bombarding Prussians bayoneteers. Yujiro was like that, but in a totally different tier.
Which is why I argue that he is technically the better badass compared to any anime character ever made.[/quote]
You might also like Alucard from Hellsing Ultimate.
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
Vegeta was never responsible for the well-being of the Saiyan race. Ever. [/quote]
Sure he was. He was the Prince after all and the last “elite” warrior. That fits the definition pretty well in my book.
[/quote]
Who did he protect? Who was he responsible for? His father did all of that then Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta leaving only a few survivors. Most of which were under Frieza’s employ. Vegeta had no say over anything Frieza decided for them.
[quote]
Goku only fought Cell so that Goku could see how Cell fought. Goku already knew he wasn’t strong enough to defeat Cell. That wasn’t his goal. He knew that Gohan with his hidden power released (SSJ2) could defeat Cell. That’s just being smart.
Vegeta wasn’t strong enough to become a SSJ2 to put it simply. 16’s death wasn’t the sole reason for Gohan’s transformation. It was just the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Zenkai boosts aren’t that easy to obtain. The Saiyan has to recover from severe injury in order to gain one.
These are Vegeta’s Zenkai boosts on Namek:
-After fighting Goku and the others on Earth
-After being beaten by Zarbon
-After being beaten by Recoome
-After having a hole blasted in him by Krillin
That’s more than anyone else at that time. I consider to count as power not gained through training.
Yes, they all spent time in the HTC. Goku and Gohan were the strongest after that. No “cheating”. No “borrowed power”.
Namekians fuse. That’s their thing lol. It’s funny to think about what would happen if all of the Namekians just up and fused. There’s actually some fanmade stuff regarding that in DB Multiverse.
Define unfair. Why does it matter if it’s fair?
Yeah GT isn’t canon.
That’s just how it is. Vegeta has only been stronger than Goku at three points in the series. His introduction, when he trained in the HTC before Goku, and his rage boost in Battle of Gods, which wasn’t permanent btw.
[quote]
Since we’re on this tangent, where was Vegeta when Frieza skullfucked his entire race? He was working for him. He continued to work for him for years. There’s nothing wrong with prioritizing survival until you are strong enough to do anything that matters.
[quote]
Yamcha got raped by a Saibaman. He didn’t sacrifice anything. He was just a failure. Krillin has died three times. Only twice in DBZ. He never sacrificed himself. He just got killed by someone stronger than him. Chiaotzu and Tien both sacrificed himself. Chiaotzu more so. You didn’t mention him, so I didn’t add him in.
[quote]
I won’t count movies in this. Most of them make Vegeta look worse especially Broly Legendary Super Saiyan. He does save Goku from 19. I am totally fine with that.
[quote]
If you’re counting emotional stimulus as external help, then I hope you realize that puts most SSJs in the same boat. It was, of course, Vegeta’s anger at Goku and Trunks being SSJs that pushed him into becoming one. The spirit bomb doesn’t boost Goku’s power. It’s literally a weapon.
I wonder if Vegeta would still be the second strongest if Gohan, Goten, and Trunks continued to train seriously.
[quote]
Okay.
[quote]
I see. That’s not canon. It also doesn’t even make sense. [/quote]
He didn’t protect anyone (why would he at the time), but he was the reigning Saiyan and a Prince at that. I think it’s pretty obvious he took pride in his people and in some level felt responsible for them in his own way, which was to be the strongest. He was away from home when Freeza destroyed the planet and didn’t know for quite some time it was actually Freeza that destroyed it.
Regarding Zenkai boost, I think Goku had at least as many if not more. However, I’m not exactly sure when in the series Zenkai boost actually occur. I would think Goku got a Zenkai boost when he died, but retained his body in other world after the Radditz fight (1), after the Vegeta battle (2), after surving his malfunctioning gravity simulator while traveing to Namek (3), and after Vegeta fucked his body up while Captain Ginyu controlled it (4).
Regardless, when/how people power up in the series is strange at best. How does Gohan go from being non-super Saiyan to stronger than Vegeta and trunks after just 1 year in the Hyperbolic time chmaber and then be strong enough to go SS2? How do Yamacha, Tien, and Chatsu defeat the Ginyu force when Vegeta, Krillin, and Gohan had literally just failed? There are a number of strange examples in the series.
Unfair wasn’t the right word. Cheap I think fits better.
I would assume Vegeta was still stronger than Goku up until some point in Goku’s training while traveling to Namek. Of course he somehow becomes stronger while just training (possibly 1 additional Zenkai boost). Vegeta was also stronger than Goku when they initially encountered the Androids if memory serves.
I don’t think the movies make him look worse with the exception potentially of the 1st Broly movie. It is kind of understandable though since he is the only Saiyan that understands what Broly truly is. He does snap out of it though. The movies where he and Goku fight together are cool though. Like Cooler’s revenge, which is probably my favorite movie.
I understand the spirit bomb is a weapon; however, it is generated by other people’s life force. It is not a creation of Goku’s.
Yes, emotion drives the SS change. I didn’t mean to imply any differently. In Vegeta’s case it is only the initial transformation and now the Battle of the Gods power increase that is created through emotion. Everything else is via training. Like when he surpasses SS2 Gohan post Cell Saga. That is all training.
I think Vegeta still remains 2nd strongest even if Gohan, Trucks, and Goten train seriously. The series seems to make it pretty clear the human side is ultimately hindrance to their power. The only reason Gohan is close is because Old Kai releases his power.