298 Million Yr Old Forest Found

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
(although my girlfriend tells me that scientists at the J Craig Venter Institute are close to completing the first man-made life form),
[/quote]

Wait a second. What does “close to” mean?

Up to this point, life has never been suddenly created from non-living material. You are saying they are “close to” doing this?

That would mean it isn’t living.[/quote]

They have been working for over 10 years, so it is not a sudden process, but the basic process is this (please note that all this information is coming from my girlfriend, not me. All my knowledge of biology comes from a 2 semester course I took back at the University of Moscow back in the mid 90’s): all life is made up of cells, which can be broken down into molecules and elements. approximately 99% of all life is made up of C, H, N, O, P, and S. Thanks to technological advances, these scientists have constructed artificial DNA. To date, they have inserted this artificial DNA into existing bacteria and have produced viable bacteria of that artificial species, which was “modeled” off an existing species (meaning they meet all the standards to be considered living.) The next step is to create a complete living organism from nothing*, which they claim to be close to doing. (“close” is a relative term to scientists. It could mean it could happen in a few years or a few decades. It is impossible to know since they are creating the technology and techniques.)

EDIT: by “nothing” I mean through the manipulation of these non-living materials.

push, just re-read Dr. Matt’s response. He states things much more clearly than I have and I would say that that is pretty much perfectly my current position. As for your defensiveness, perhaps I just mis-read the tone of your posts. Been a long day.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Can any of the posters who have commented here intelligently and reasonably explain why the Appearance of Age Theory canNOT work? From a scientific or philosophical or theological perspective.

What is there that says that the same God who created a fully developed, mature Adam, fully developed, mature Eve (yeah baby!), and fully developed, mature plants and animals of every sort per the Genesis account somehow could NOT have created a fully developed, mature universe (outside of the aforementioned biological life)?

That of course entails rocks with plenty of evidentiary daughter elements, photon beams from the sun and stars “in place,” an already expanded universe, etc.?

What is there in all of that that would cause a reasonable man to say, “Nahhhhh, that could never work, that’s way too improbable”??? How can it be dismissed? Tell me.

[edit] Someone mentioned Occam’s Razor several pages back so speaking of it…why could it not be employed in this instance, i.e., the A of A theory? The simplest answer might just be the most obvious - He simply spoke it into existence and was consistent by creating ALL things with an Appearance of Age…just like He said He did in Genesis 1 and 2.[/quote]
Not necessarily a reason why it COULDN’T work, but one issue with appearance of age would be that it implies a deceitful God. Many would argue that the God of the Bible is the opposite of deceitful - he is the Truth.
Of course, using the word day when it could possibly represent millions of years instead might also imply deceitfulness.
Just some food for thought.

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
This thread is STILL going strong?

Time to throw a monkey wrench into the works.

NSFW!

http://blackgifs.com/gifs/nsfw57.gif

lol

[/quote]
My carbon dating methods put her at approximately 18 years of age.

[/quote]

Check out this one. Tell me you don’t believe in God after that!

http://blackgifs.com/gifs/nsfw54.gif[/quote]

She looks really familiar actually. Awesome boobs!

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Sharp4850 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Can any of the posters who have commented here intelligently and reasonably explain why the Appearance of Age Theory canNOT work? From a scientific or philosophical or theological perspective.

What is there that says that the same God who created a fully developed, mature Adam, fully developed, mature Eve (yeah baby!), and fully developed, mature plants and animals of every sort per the Genesis account somehow could NOT have created a fully developed, mature universe (outside of the aforementioned biological life)?

That of course entails rocks with plenty of evidentiary daughter elements, photon beams from the sun and stars “in place,” an already expanded universe, etc.?

What is there in all of that that would cause a reasonable man to say, “Nahhhhh, that could never work, that’s way too improbable”??? How can it be dismissed? Tell me.

[edit] Someone mentioned Occam’s Razor several pages back so speaking of it…why could it not be employed in this instance, i.e., the A of A theory? The simplest answer might just be the most obvious - He simply spoke it into existence and was consistent by creating ALL things with an Appearance of Age…just like He said He did in Genesis 1 and 2.[/quote]
Not necessarily a reason why it COULDN’T work, but one issue with appearance of age would be that it implies a deceitful God. Many would argue that the God of the Bible is the opposite of deceitful - he is the Truth.
Of course, using the word day when it could possibly represent millions of years instead might also imply deceitfulness.
Just some food for thought.[/quote]

How could it be considered deceitful? Did you read my comments above about a mature creation and consistency?[/quote]
Perhaps I’m misinterpreting what you’re proposing. What you’re asking is why couldn’t it be possible that He created a universe that appeared to be much older than it really is, correct?
While I don’t deny the possibility of that (I generally try to avoid denying the possibility of anything outright), what I don’t understand is why God would create a universe that He knew would appear to be several billions of years old to many of the instruments that we use to determine age, if in fact the universe was only several thousands of years old. This would seem like a deceptive practice to some.
If I’m missing the mark on what you’re asking here, let me know.
And again, I’m not trying to say that this idea is improbable or wouldn’t be possible.

Push, is their any evidence that would convince you of an old or evolved Earth?

Genuine question, not loaded, not trying to be a dick.

(And yeah, there is stuff would convince me of creation).

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Sharp4850 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Sharp4850 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Can any of the posters who have commented here intelligently and reasonably explain why the Appearance of Age Theory canNOT work? From a scientific or philosophical or theological perspective.

What is there that says that the same God who created a fully developed, mature Adam, fully developed, mature Eve (yeah baby!), and fully developed, mature plants and animals of every sort per the Genesis account somehow could NOT have created a fully developed, mature universe (outside of the aforementioned biological life)?

That of course entails rocks with plenty of evidentiary daughter elements, photon beams from the sun and stars “in place,” an already expanded universe, etc.?

What is there in all of that that would cause a reasonable man to say, “Nahhhhh, that could never work, that’s way too improbable”??? How can it be dismissed? Tell me.

[edit] Someone mentioned Occam’s Razor several pages back so speaking of it…why could it not be employed in this instance, i.e., the A of A theory? The simplest answer might just be the most obvious - He simply spoke it into existence and was consistent by creating ALL things with an Appearance of Age…just like He said He did in Genesis 1 and 2.[/quote]
Not necessarily a reason why it COULDN’T work, but one issue with appearance of age would be that it implies a deceitful God. Many would argue that the God of the Bible is the opposite of deceitful - he is the Truth.
Of course, using the word day when it could possibly represent millions of years instead might also imply deceitfulness.
Just some food for thought.[/quote]

How could it be considered deceitful? Did you read my comments above about a mature creation and consistency?[/quote]
Perhaps I’m misinterpreting what you’re proposing. What you’re asking is why couldn’t it be possible that He created a universe that appeared to be much older than it really is, correct?
While I don’t deny the possibility of that (I generally try to avoid denying the possibility of anything outright), what I don’t understand is why God would create a universe that He knew would appear to be several billions of years old to many of the instruments that we use to determine age, if in fact the universe was only several thousands of years old. This would seem like a deceptive practice to some.
If I’m missing the mark on what you’re asking here, let me know.
And again, I’m not trying to say that this idea is improbable or wouldn’t be possible. [/quote]

IF God created mature human beings in Eden and IF He created mature flora and fauna everywhere else on earth WHY wouldn’t it be inconsistent to create non mature non biological matter and energy?

Stated another way: it would be the opposite of “deceitful” if He was consistent.

His biological creation was specifically stated to have been created fully mature, with an appearance of age. That is crystal clear with no room for any disagreement.[/quote]
Could you perhaps refer me to the verse(s) that imply that fully matured Creation indeed had “evidentiary daughter elements, photon beams from the sun and stars ‘in place’?” Admittedly, my knowledge of Scripture is not as broad as it could be. If I am lacking here, then I can see your point entirely.
Or is this operating on the assumption that fully matured biologically was synonymous with chronologically matured in terms of “evidentiary daughter elements, photon beams from the sun and stars ‘in place’?”

[quote]
Tell me why it’s deceitful, or “manipulative,” for His non-biological creation to have been created fully mature, with an appearance of age.[/quote]
God is all-knowing. He knew that 6000 odd years from Creation we would be using the devices and methods available to ascertain the age of materials.
Bearing this knowledge in mind, he went on to create a universe containing materials which would all appear to be several billions of years old when studied with our devices.
You couldn’t see how this idea may seem deceitful to some?

On the issue of deceit, this is why I liked The Matrix movies. They talked about all of this.

It has always been a choice whether you believe in God or have faith in one. If there was definitive proof in either direction, there would be no more choice. You can argue all you want about “deceit”, but there is nothing deceitful about creating something…along with the RULES by which that something functions.

That is why questioning photon beams makes little sense…because he would have created those too.

I think it was already made clear I don’t necessarily believe in a “6,000 year old” Earth…and one doesn’t have to in order to believe in a high power.

Why would God hate science when the idea is he created the rules by which our reality works at all?

God would BE science, and Math. He would be why our number systems even work the way they do.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Why would God hate science when the idea is he created the rules by which our reality works at all?

God would BE science, and Math. He would be why our number systems even work the way they do.[/quote]

So you’re a pantheist?

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Why would God hate science when the idea is he created the rules by which our reality works at all?

God would BE science, and Math. He would be why our number systems even work the way they do.[/quote]

So you’re a pantheist? [/quote]

I am a person who is open to possibilities and never stops looking for answers.

Until a few months ago, I thought the story of Abraham preparing to kill his son on an alter was harsh…until I learned that child sacrifice used to be a pretty big thing all over the Middle East and that story is now believed to be a statement AGAINST the act of killing your kids for random Gods.

Without the context we are JUST NOW LEARNING after uncovering mass graves of children in that part of the world, we didn’t even understand the issue fully.

I believe God could be BOTH the very reality we live along with more personal relationships.

Why would an omnipotent being be limited by the logic of some random college kids?

[quote]pushharder wrote:

And MAYBE, just as X alluded, in 200 years we will laugh at the devices and methods available today. Maybe God is allowing us to continue to explore His universe and we aint got it all pegged just yet. Maybe God will have the last word on all of this. Maybe we finite little dust particles that we are aint quite as awesomely intelligent as we think we are. Maybe, huh?

[/quote]

This is the main issue…and why I brought up the way people will perceive us 200 years from now if humans are still here. Just like we would see someone from 200 years ago as being “uneducated”, the same will eventually be said of all of the “accomplishments” we currently think are so awesome.

They won’t be “awesome” even 5 years from now. That brand new computer will be pure garbage in less than 10 years even though it is nice, shiny and full of possibilities now.

We aren’t mature enough to have the attitudes I see in this thread…as if science has figured out enough to explain away the idea of God.

Mind you, that’s coming from someone who went to school past the level of most of the people laughing at Push.

You aren’t seen as “smarter” or more grounded because you made a choice to not believe in God.

You simply made a choice…and we just don’t see all of the “genius” atheism has granted.

Why do you guys care so much about God?

Serious question.

Push, I can see you’ve put a lot of thought into this subject.
Honestly, I’m not trying to convince you of anything, or change your mind.
You had posed a question, and it didn’t look like anybody had responded, so I gave it a shot.
Heck, it’s not even my stance.
I appreciate your responses though. It’s certainly given me a different viewpoint on things.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You aren’t seen as “smarter” or more grounded because you made a choice to not believe in God.

You simply made a choice…and we just don’t see all of the “genius” atheism has granted[/quote]

You keep writing dumb shit like this as if most people in this thread are operating under this impression. But then, perhaps YOU will be interviewed for the next YEC book to use your credentials in dentistry as a soapbox to preach, “well, thing is we just don’t KNOW either way… therefore, either option is pretty much equally valid under the existing evidence[/u].”

Either address, specifically, the people to whom you are referring or STFU. Better yet, use that big tooth pullin’ brain of yours to discuss the evidence you disagree with.

I, for one, already wrote that I am an agnostic.

Besides, I’ve read people mention that there really is no “choice” to believing once you “see” the light of God. The evidence to support his existence then becomes so overwhelming and the solution so obvious that there really can’t be any other explanation to be had. MOST people who don’t believe in him have never had such a moment in their lives. I can “choose” to believe in him about as well as I can “choose” to believe in Zeus and Poseidon; that’s not a dick statement, but a FACT based on my life experiences and the way my brain is currently wired… I could go through the motions of worship and try to shoehorn such beliefs into my thought processes, but neither would truly be meaningful beliefs on the level of MOST who LEGITIMATELY believe in a higher power.

Try to argue otherwise is fucking batshit… but I like your assumption that it’s essentially analogous to Captain Crunch or Fruit Loops in the morning.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I am a person who is open to possibilities and never stops looking for answers.

I believe God could be BOTH the very reality we live along with more personal relationships.

Why would an omnipotent being be limited by the logic of some random college kids?[/quote]

Are you open to the possibility no god exists or that an unintelligent being was responsible for the first cause?