2012 Presidential Election Run-Up

Thanks, Zeb.

You know…I think what peoples view that Romney is not “taking it to” the President and being more “aggressive”, is actually a smart, political move.

By now, I think that both Romney and his campaign realize that his biggest gaffs come when he speaks “off the cuff” or is taken out of his comfort Zone. As someone said once, Romney would much prefer to get to the job at hand and bypass the whole election process. He simply isn’t a comfortable campaigner.

The net result is that all he has to do is avoid any MAJOR gaffs; hold-his-own in the debates; and use his War Chest to fire up EVEN MORE the Conservative Base to get out and vote.

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Thanks, Zeb.

You know…I think what peoples view that Romney is not “taking it to” the President and being more “aggressive”, is actually a smart, political move.

By now, I think that both Romney and his campaign realize that his biggest gaffs come when he speaks “off the cuff” or is taken out of his comfort Zone. As someone said once, Romney would much prefer to get to the job at hand and bypass the whole election process. He simply isn’t a comfortable campaigner.

The net result is that all he has to do is avoid any MAJOR gaffs; hold-his-own in the debates; and use his War Chest to fire up EVEN MORE the Conservative Base to get out and vote.

Mufasa [/quote]

First of all I don’t think that Romney makes any more gaffes than Obama. However, Romney’s gaffes are more publicized by the MSLM.

Secondly, I think that Romney is going to have to trounce Obama in that first debate in order to get a reasonable lead. And I think he is quite capable of doing it. As I’ve said Obama has not been pushed by the media for four years. And there is no doubt due to his over sized ego that no one in the White House questions him. When Romney starts pushing him around in a debate I think he’s going to be on shaky ground. I could be wrong of course but I highly doubt Obama will enter that first debate as prepared as he should be…after all he’s already perfect in his own mind so why practice?

Certainly it’s a close race no question about that. And even after the debates regardless of who “wins” it will still be close. Keep in mind that Presidential debates are an odd animal. The person you want to win the race is usually the person you think won the debate whether he did or not.

If I were a betting man… I would save my money for Football season!

Again, Zeb…I certainly see these debates as interesting…but I don’t see either candidate delivering a “knock-out” blow.

I think the first Debate is moderated by Jim Leher (…yea, yea…I know that Public Television tends to be part of the “MSLM”…)…but he tends to ask fairly even-handed questions and keeps candidates on track when they evade the question.

I think that both Romney and the President will bolster their positions…and there is bound to be some “moment” that will be talked about the next day…but a clear “winner” or “loser”?

All in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

Mufasa

[quote]ZEB wrote:
.after all he’s already perfect in his own mind so why practice?

[/quote]

I’m sure some people would argue this fact, but I look at how quick he is to blame others as proof.

It takes integrity and the ability to be critical of one’s self in order to accept responsibility, even if it isn’t always 100% your fault. Good leaders do this. They take a “the buck stops with me” stance on everything that happens on their watch.

I see Obama’s blame blame blame approach to governance as his lack of ability to be critical of himself.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Again, Zeb…I certainly see these debates as interesting…but I don’t see either candidate delivering a “knock-out” blow.

I think the first Debate is moderated by Jim Leher (…yea, yea…I know that Public Television tends to be part of the “MSLM”…)…but he tends to ask fairly even-handed questions and keeps candidates on track when they evade the question.

I think that both Romney and the President will bolster their positions…and there is bound to be some “moment” that will be talked about the next day…but a clear “winner” or “loser”?

All in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

Mufasa[/quote]

True indeed my friend.

But there are ways that one candidate is seen as having won.

  1. Humor, a very powerful tool in a Presidential debate and one used well by Ronald Reagan both times he ran for President. He won that first debate with Carter by not looking as “hawkish” as the Carter campaign had painted him. He came off as a jovial senior citizen who seemed sharp and had a good sense of humor. When Reagan said to Carter “there you go again…” intimating that Carter was playing fast and loose with the facts it was a turning point in the debate and the election. After that first debate Reagan gained a huge advantage in the polls.

  2. Mistakes can play a large role in Presidential debates. Without the liberal media filter Obama is walking a tight rope with no net. He won’t feel the pressure because as a perfect human being he knows in his heart that he never makes mistakes. However, that won’t prevent him from possibly making one. If it’s large enough the media (all of them) will be forced to talk about it. Romney, on the other hand is hunted daily by the media who are looking for “gotchya” moments. He is used to the fire. That doesn’t mean that he’s immune to errors obviously we know better. But he’s at least been tried by fire. When has Obama ever been up against it? He was thrown soft balls when he debated Hillary (so much so that SNL made fun of the debates in 08) He also had an easy time with John McCain, but he was coming off three hard fought debates with Hillary and was far more ready to go one on one than he is today.

But errors can certainly turn the tide of any Presidential debate. One example,
in his 1976 debate with then challenger Jimmy Carter had President Ford not said
“there is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe” he may very well have won reelection. But that error was front page news the next day and cost him reelection in a very tight race.

Other than a well timed clever line or a major gaffe on the part of either candidate, the debates help the challenger more than the incumbent. As Romney gets to stand next to the President and prove to the world (by not making the big gaffe) that he is every bit as qualified as Obama. Until that very moment he is the guy outside looking in. When they both take the stage and stand next to each other the challenger is then seen as quite viable by some who had doubts. Generally, in earlier days sitting Presidents rarely accepted a challenge to debate from their opponents for this very reason. However, with the Kennedy/Nixon debate Presidential debates became a well accepted tradition. Prior to that point it was hit or miss whether the two candidates for the highest office in the land would debate.

So, by virtue of the debate taking place and no major gaffes on Romney’s part I would bet that his numbers rise slightly in the polls. If he has an exceptional evening it can turn the tide of the election for him in a big way. Granted there are two more debates that follow but that first debate is watched by more people and far more highly anticipated. Hence, it has more power in the Presidential race in my view.

Jim Lehrer who is a liberal is scheduled to moderate the first debate. But out of the three moderators he is the most fair. The first half of the debate will focus on the economy. If Romney does not hit it out of the park in the first 45 minutes then it will be Obama’s evening as this is a horrible economy and I don’t think that blaming Bush will play well in a debate format. The second half will focus on health care. This should be another good topic for Romney as about 60% of Americans are against national health care. The other two debates are moderated by CNN’s Candy Crowley a lefty and CBS’ Bob Schieffer another lefty. And unlike Jim Lehrer who usually keeps his politics to himself Crowley will be drooling at a chance to hit Romney with as many times as possible. Schieffer is a more seasoned newsman but nonetheless pulls for Obama.

So, this first debate is Romney’s best chance to stand up and show the American public that he is ready to lead!

Wow…

If you don’t know what the bottom picture is, you shouldn’t be allowed to vote…

Hat’s off to Univision for slaughtering Obama last night.

This, being his biggest admission of failure, shows his total lack of leadership, inability to accept responsibility, and total lack of qualification for the position.

Too bad the lap dog media is still stuck on half the country being butthurt a politican had the nuts to mention 50% of the country now supports the other 50%, and not giving a fair shake to this and other blunders last night.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Hat’s off to Univision for slaughtering Obama last night.

This, being his biggest admission of failure, shows his total lack of leadership, inability to accept responsibility, and total lack of qualification for the position.

Too bad the lap dog media is still stuck on half the country being butthurt a politican had the nuts to mention 50% of the country now supports the other 50%, and not giving a fair shake to this and other blunders last night.

[/quote]

Another thing from this particualar appearance…A bald faced lie.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:<<< This, being his biggest admission of failure, shows his total lack of leadership, inability to accept responsibility, and total lack of qualification for the position. >>>[/quote]All while he slides into a likely second term. Welcome to our future.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Again, Zeb…I certainly see these debates as interesting…but I don’t see either candidate delivering a “knock-out” blow.

I think the first Debate is moderated by Jim Leher (…yea, yea…I know that Public Television tends to be part of the “MSLM”…)…but he tends to ask fairly even-handed questions and keeps candidates on track when they evade the question.

I think that both Romney and the President will bolster their positions…and there is bound to be some “moment” that will be talked about the next day…but a clear “winner” or “loser”?

All in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

Mufasa[/quote]

True indeed my friend.

But there are ways that one candidate is seen as having won.

  1. Humor, a very powerful tool in a Presidential debate and one used well by Ronald Reagan both times he ran for President. He won that first debate with Carter by not looking as “hawkish” as the Carter campaign had painted him. He came off as a jovial senior citizen who seemed sharp and had a good sense of humor. When Reagan said to Carter “there you go again…” intimating that Carter was playing fast and loose with the facts it was a turning point in the debate and the election. After that first debate Reagan gained a huge advantage in the polls.

  2. Mistakes can play a large role in Presidential debates. Without the liberal media filter Obama is walking a tight rope with no net. He won’t feel the pressure because as a perfect human being he knows in his heart that he never makes mistakes. However, that won’t prevent him from possibly making one. If it’s large enough the media (all of them) will be forced to talk about it. Romney, on the other hand is hunted daily by the media who are looking for “gotchya” moments. He is used to the fire. That doesn’t mean that he’s immune to errors obviously we know better. But he’s at least been tried by fire. When has Obama ever been up against it? He was thrown soft balls when he debated Hillary (so much so that SNL made fun of the debates in 08) He also had an easy time with John McCain, but he was coming off three hard fought debates with Hillary and was far more ready to go one on one than he is today.

But errors can certainly turn the tide of any Presidential debate. One example,
in his 1976 debate with then challenger Jimmy Carter had President Ford not said
“there is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe” he may very well have won reelection. But that error was front page news the next day and cost him reelection in a very tight race.

Other than a well timed clever line or a major gaffe on the part of either candidate, the debates help the challenger more than the incumbent. As Romney gets to stand next to the President and prove to the world (by not making the big gaffe) that he is every bit as qualified as Obama. Until that very moment he is the guy outside looking in. When they both take the stage and stand next to each other the challenger is then seen as quite viable by some who had doubts. Generally, in earlier days sitting Presidents rarely accepted a challenge to debate from their opponents for this very reason. However, with the Kennedy/Nixon debate Presidential debates became a well accepted tradition. Prior to that point it was hit or miss whether the two candidates for the highest office in the land would debate.

So, by virtue of the debate taking place and no major gaffes on Romney’s part I would bet that his numbers rise slightly in the polls. If he has an exceptional evening it can turn the tide of the election for him in a big way. Granted there are two more debates that follow but that first debate is watched by more people and far more highly anticipated. Hence, it has more power in the Presidential race in my view.

Jim Lehrer who is a liberal is scheduled to moderate the first debate. But out of the three moderators he is the most fair. The first half of the debate will focus on the economy. If Romney does not hit it out of the park in the first 45 minutes then it will be Obama’s evening as this is a horrible economy and I don’t think that blaming Bush will play well in a debate format. The second half will focus on health care. This should be another good topic for Romney as about 60% of Americans are against national health care. The other two debates are moderated by CNN’s Candy Crowley a lefty and CBS’ Bob Schieffer another lefty. And unlike Jim Lehrer who usually keeps his politics to himself Crowley will be drooling at a chance to hit Romney with as many times as possible. Schieffer is a more seasoned newsman but nonetheless pulls for Obama.

So, this first debate is Romney’s best chance to stand up and show the American public that he is ready to lead!

[/quote]

Amazing summary and historical perspective, Zeb!

Thanks!

By all reports, Romney is practicing…and practicing HARD for these debates. He and his campaign also must view them as very important.

His focus on the debates has got him in a little trouble with some Conservatives (especially larger donors). They want to see him out more on the stump, especially in Battleground states.

While he is traveling more; it is clear that he is now focused more on the debates that can truly “define” him to a much larger electorate.

Mufasa

I second Mufasa-excellent perspective Zeb.

I also agree with Mufasa’s perspective that it’s unlikely we will see a knock out blow in these debates from either candidate. As far as who will win and who will lose goes, I can almost guarantee there will be no true consensus. This is where confirmation bias comes into play to a great degree (as noted by Zeb and Mufasa): Obama supporters will see confirmation of their beliefs and Romney supporters will see confirmation of their beliefs. If I were a betting man I would put money on Fox saying Romney “wins” and MSNBC saying Obama “wins”.

With that being said, I think if there is going to be a major shift due to the debates, it would be for Romney after the first one. Economic focus, first debate, favorable moderation-it lines up nicely. Again though, I doubt we see a major shift in either direction. Frankly, I will be thrilled if there is just anything resembling a legitimate dialogue rather than the same tired soundbites, half-truths, and way overblown incidents we hear about far too often already.

Agree, CS.

Somehow…with such a CLOSE race…I have this feeling that both men will go into the debates to “not lose”, not to win.

In other words, both will be happy with a split decision, not a knockout.

Now…Zeb brings up an important historical point…often these “knockouts” in the debates are not planned anyway…one opponent simply sees an opening then takes it.

Mufasa

Nate Silver at the NYT election forecast has a good article on Romney’s chances without Ohio.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/sept-25-romneys-narrow-path-without-ohio/

It seems that, if Ohio continues to slip out of his grasp, he is going to need Iowa, Nevada, Florida, N. Carolina, Virginia, Colorado, and New Hampshire.

I have the feeling that the first debate could shake this up considerably.

One problem that I see for Romney gaining an “Economy Win” in the debates (and I think Bolt alluded to this) is that “Supply Side/Trickle Down” theory will get hammered by the President.

At the same time (like it or not) the President can point to some of his “wins” with the economy and and economy that is improving (albeit slowly).

Romney will really have to come out with some bold initiatives to really “win” an “Economy” Debate.

Thoughts?

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
One problem that I see for Romney gaining an “Economy Win” in the debates (and I think Bolt alluded to this) is that “Supply Side/Trickle Down” theory will get hammered by the President.

At the same time (like it or not) the President can point to some of his “wins” with the economy and and economy that is improving (albeit slowly).

Romney will really have to come out with some bold initiatives to really “win” an “Economy” Debate.

Thoughts?
Mufasa [/quote]

The safe bet is that Fox calls it a Romney win and MSNBC calls it an Obama win and the country splits along partisan lines along with them. Both candidates will use their stump talking points, misdirections, and platitudes.

But who knows? Maybe something big will happen–a Reagan one-liner or a Rick Perry “oops” can really turn the tide with these things.

It’s interesting how each side thinks that the OTHER side will be prone to making a major Gaff.

Conservatives think that the President is more prone because he is arrogant and cocky.

Liberals think that Romney is more prone because he is a rich, out-of-touch guy who just “doesn’t get it”.

Now Ryan and “Killer Joe” should be interesting too (albeit just for one Debate). They both come from similar working-class backgrounds…but Ryan is an admitted “Political Detail/Wonk” guy…and Joe is…“KillerJoe”! Joe is damn good at deflection and “regular-guy-ness”…and not giving a flying f$ck about his gaffs…and Ryan IS a “detail” person.

The problem I see is that the Debates are really not set up for a lot of “substance and detail” (which favors KillerJoe)…but Joe can really, REALLY stick his foot in his mouth.

We’ll see!

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
It’s interesting how each side thinks that the OTHER side will be prone to making a major Gaff.

Conservatives think that the President is more prone because he is arrogant and cocky.

Liberals think that Romney is more prone because he is a rich, out-of-touch guy who just “doesn’t get it”.

Now Ryan and “Killer Joe” should be interesting too (albeit just for one Debate). They both come from similar working-class backgrounds…but Ryan is an admitted “Political Detail/Wonk” guy…and Joe is…“KillerJoe”! Joe is damn good at deflection and “regular-guy-ness”…and not giving a flying f$ck about his gaffs…and Ryan IS a “detail” person.

The problem I see is that the Debates are really not set up for a lot of “substance and detail” (which favors KillerJoe)…but Joe can really, REALLY stick his foot in his mouth.

We’ll see!

Mufasa[/quote]

It’s funny that Republicans and Dems are anticipating a knockout form their guy while both the Romney and Obama camps are subtly trying to lower the expectations for their candidate.

I am actually more excited about the VP debate from the perspective of these things as pure entertainment.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
It’s interesting how each side thinks that the OTHER side will be prone to making a major Gaff.

Conservatives think that the President is more prone because he is arrogant and cocky.

Liberals think that Romney is more prone because he is a rich, out-of-touch guy who just “doesn’t get it”.

Now Ryan and “Killer Joe” should be interesting too (albeit just for one Debate). They both come from similar working-class backgrounds…but Ryan is an admitted “Political Detail/Wonk” guy…and Joe is…“KillerJoe”! Joe is damn good at deflection and “regular-guy-ness”…and not giving a flying f$ck about his gaffs…and Ryan IS a “detail” person.

The problem I see is that the Debates are really not set up for a lot of “substance and detail” (which favors KillerJoe)…but Joe can really, REALLY stick his foot in his mouth.

We’ll see!

Mufasa[/quote]

Neither of them come off as particularly quick witted when taken off message or pressed into answering off the cuff. Just an observation, as being quick on your feet has zero to do with being good presidential material…

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
It’s interesting how each side thinks that the OTHER side will be prone to making a major Gaff.

Conservatives think that the President is more prone because he is arrogant and cocky.

Liberals think that Romney is more prone because he is a rich, out-of-touch guy who just “doesn’t get it”.

Now Ryan and “Killer Joe” should be interesting too (albeit just for one Debate). They both come from similar working-class backgrounds…but Ryan is an admitted “Political Detail/Wonk” guy…and Joe is…“KillerJoe”! Joe is damn good at deflection and “regular-guy-ness”…and not giving a flying f$ck about his gaffs…and Ryan IS a “detail” person.

The problem I see is that the Debates are really not set up for a lot of “substance and detail” (which favors KillerJoe)…but Joe can really, REALLY stick his foot in his mouth.

We’ll see!

Mufasa[/quote]

It’s funny that Republicans and Dems are anticipating a knockout form their guy while both the Romney and Obama camps are subtly trying to lower the expectations for their candidate.

I am actually more excited about the VP debate from the perspective of these things as pure entertainment. [/quote]

Couldn’t agree with either of you more.

The VP debate I will watch. The Presidential, I’ll play CivIV during and read about the next day, lol.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

At the same time (like it or not) the President can point to some of his “wins” with the economy and and economy that is improving (albeit slowly).

Thoughts?

Mufasa [/quote]

Huh? Obama could possibly make a case that he saved GM (and some others) from bankruptcy by using tax dollars to bolster them. But…that’s about the end of his “wins”. If Romney doesn’t clean his clock in a debate on the economy Obama gets four more years.

One zinger Romney could use as he looks right at him: “Mr. President you promised us hope and change and delivered high unemployment and runaway debt.”

Or any variation of the above would work. The people in the middle need to realize that Obama has failed for four years. The MSLM has filtered all the negative out. And many who are struggling along do not place as much responsibility on Obama as there should be. A good debate night for Romney can change all that.

I’d look at the camera and I’d ask one simple question to the American people.

If this isn’t failure, 8% for 43 straight months, 16 trillion in debt, 45 million on food stamps etc… the what is? How poor of a job does this President have to do before you decide that he does not deserve another four years?

If Romney can’t do something like that. If he can’t pull the voters in and snap them out of their “vote Obama stupor” mostly induced by the MSLM then he will lose this election. There is no better time for him to take charge and take it to Obama than in this very first debate on the economy and health care. I will add that if Romney does not knock it out of the park in this first debate he will lose the election (barring any acts from God).