So I personally have waited 14 and 17 days before starting PCT after last pin for the two cycles I have run. Recovery went well, everything bounced back well. However, after reading a few of your posts and the reasoning behind 3 weeks, it makes total sense.
Here’s the question I have though… if you are running an oral that suppresses natural test during your waiting period, and up until PCT, will your test levels drop more rapidly then if you are not running an oral?
Should PCT be started sooner if running an oral up until PCT than if not?
I would say no, the oral will not increase the elimination of the injected compounds. There is a possibility that the oral steroid could induce liver enzymes and clear the other compounds more quickly, but there is no literature on the topic, so who knows.
I think it’s a bad idea to run an oral at the end of a cycle. Androgens negatively impact HDL and LDL and throwing in a hepatotoxic substance when you are already compromised seems like a bad idea. But I err on the side of caution and other people have done worse.
Also, I think time between your last pin and the start of PCT is important not only for allowing T to be excreted but also for allowing your HPG axis at least some time to react. If you add an oral in between and then stop it right before your PCT you’re putting a drastic shock on all body systems. If this was a really great idea, you probably would have heard about it by now.
Assuming no oral, 2 vs 3 weeks is totally debatable and like all other things depends on what makes you most successful. If you know that a 14 or 17 day wait is good for you then I say don’t mess with it. Otherwise I think you should be conservative at first and try 19 days this time and see if it’s any better, and if so then try 21 days next time. Get bloodwork and let us know your experience.
Orals on the back half of a cycle are quite common and becoming pretty standard. Iron Yuppie had a great write up about it, as have some others on other pages. Not too concerned with a short hit on lipids, and thankfully orals do not affect my lipids much at all (both DBol and anavar have not budged my LDL more than 5 points).
There’s several reasons it can be beneficial over using orals as a kick start. Having run orals both ways on different cycles, I much prefer it on the back end, personally.
Absolutely, I think running orals on the back half is a good idea especially if you know it has minimal effect on lipids. I was more referring to using orals as a bridge to PCT, which I think is less smart.
Yes, by back half I mean, entire back half. For example, a 12 week cycle, you’d start your oral in week 8 or 9 and run it up until the day before starting PCT. So not just as a bridge, but using it entirely for the back half of the cycle. It has helped me stay mentally and physically at the peak of my game with the gym. In past cycles, by week 9 or 10 I was “done” and ready to stop. I had to really push. This cycle, I haven’t wanted to stop. Entirely different than my previous two cycles.
what about HDL, triglycerides, HDL/LDL particle size though? It isn’t just about the numbers either (though they play a large role) the rate of lipid oxidation is important (hence why trigs are so important). A subpar HDL/LDL ratio with a low rate of lipid perioxidation isn’t thaaaat bad compared to a subpar HDL/LDL ratio with a high rate of aforementioned variable.
My HDL has not changed due to orals from what I can tell. First cycle I ran with no orals, Test alone, dropped me into mid 20s, and then back up to low to mid 40s after cycle (I know still not ideal but has always been on the low end). Second cycle with a DBol kick start of 30mg daily has me mid to upper 20s still for HDL. Currently sitting mid 20s again on Anavar.
Triglycerides have always been in the mid to low normal range. I’d have to go back and check as I never remember because they are always good and well within range, my HDL and LDL however are not the best, whether on or off cycle. Genetics suck.
Certainly not arguing that orals are great on the lipids by any means. Just hasn’t been a major concern of mine while running 30mg of DBol or 50mg of Anavar for a short period of time. I’ve accepted the slight hit to my lipids from Test alone, and hope that no real damage is done by doing so, however I don’t know if that is the case.
I have ran 500mg of Test E per week for all three cycles now. My goal is to only run one more cycle and be done, and quite certain it will be a low dose test ~200 per week then add something else to carry to the load.
Prior to TRT, in the high 30’s/40, Trigs were high, glucose tolerance/insulin sensitivity was a mess. TRT/cycling appears to have legitimately improved these parameters (probably mostly TRT, cycling isn’t a healthy hobby)
Normal glucose tolerance, trigs very, very low, healthy HDL/LDL ratio (about 1-2.5), total cholesterol under 200 (wasn’t previously the case). TRT did wonders in relation to improving my health, Bone density was low (osteopenia) within certain regions of my spine just when I started TRT (prolonged hypogonadism and use of AI… my history is rather problematic, it’s a long story) will do that to you, I had bone pain in my coccyx frequently, not this is never an issue )
Now that I think of it, the role of TRT/androgens in general within relation to the quality of my life has been a total game changer, I can’t be thankful enough for these medications existing haha.
That is awesome to hear! You’re right, for some folks TRT is life changing for a number of reasons.
I personally have decent natural levels, but genetically my cholesterol has been horrible since I first had it checked at 13/14 years old. LDL 260ish. HDL always low 40s. My diet is good, like actually good, I take supplements to help, and as an adult have been able to lower my LDL to 165-170 without the use of a statin. But definitely not ideal at all. Thankfully triglycerides are always nice and low, but the rest sucks.
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