2 Failed Post Cycles, Drs Were No Help

Pharma / TRT
21

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
this is why steroids shouldn’t be cycled…

looks like you rolled the dice and may have come up short Op…

being on forever is not such a bad thing though… it just means more muscle and less fat… and a very strong sex drive

don’t worry about the infertility comment from your doc, that’s nonsense [/quote]

starting last and final pct this week before becoming a TRT member, clomid 100/100/50/50/25 and nolva 40/40/20/20/20, have blood work going in to it, as well will have blood work done again 2 and 4 months after the last day of the pct. will post updates and results, similar to a log I suppose, perhaps it can be used to help others in the future. cheers

22

[quote]dt79 wrote:
Why are you asking this question when you used such large amounts of HCG?

An aggressive PCT or using a HPTA Restart Protocol would look something like:

HCG @2000iu EOD for 8 shots or until balls regain function
with nolva@20mg ED

Followed by:

Clomid 100/100/100/50/50
Nolva 20/20/20/20/20

What did you actually do?[/quote]

what I actually did was very similar to what you stated, I did not do all 10,000IU at once, It was 5 2000IU shots EoD with clomid 50 ED and nolva 20ED during the HCG shots and continued that clomid and nolva treatment for 3 weeks after HCG was done as well. basically the Dr Scally Power PCT protocol.

HCG 2000IU EoD days 1-10
clomid 50 ED days 1-31
nolva 20 ED days 1-31

23

a couple general observations i have on this whole scenario…

-i think addressing your prolactin might be worthwhile prior to TRT… as it is, that’s the only hormone level you had in the higher range, and might be the cause of your sexual dysfunction. might be worth it to address that now, before you’re on TRT for life…

-clomid has been shown to decrease the body’s response to GnRH. i know that some docs out there recommend it, but when compared to nolvadex (which increase the body’s response to GnRH), it is simply inferior. also, both have been studied at much lower doses (clomid at 25-50 mg and nolva at 20 mg/day)… i really doubt higher doses do anything but increase side effects. since SERMs are acting like estrogen, it’s possible that really high doses of 2 different SERMs are going to cause estrogen-like side effects…

a lot of people run PCT at 4 weeks and think this is good enough, but there is a ton of data showing that nolva is effective for up to 8 weeks in boosting “T” levels, and clomid is effective for even longer durations. unless one has a specific reason to cut PCT short, i think 6 weeks should generally be the minimum time for one who realistically expects to recover a large degree of function.

-HCG at high doses can boost testosterone levels, but since it didn’t actually increase the recovery of the HPTA, then there’s going to be a lag time after using it. that’s why one should use low, infrequent doses on cycle, and finish no later than a week prior to PCT. i think the TRT guys are figuring out the most effective way to use this now…

-i think there are a couple supplements worth adding in to PCT as well.

DAA (3000 mg/for 2 weeks) has been shown to boost test levels, and apparently does so by shuttling cholesterol into the testes as a substrate for testosterone production. however, it stops being effective after 2 weeks, possibly due to reaching a saturation dose.

ZMA and vitamin D have also been shown to be very important in optimal testosterone production and in controlling estrogen levels. while i doubt these will jack your levels sky high, i do think it’s clear if you’re deficient, they will cause issues with your own production.

24

[quote]playhard00 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
Why are you asking this question when you used such large amounts of HCG?

An aggressive PCT or using a HPTA Restart Protocol would look something like:

HCG @2000iu EOD for 8 shots or until balls regain function
with nolva@20mg ED

Followed by:

Clomid 100/100/100/50/50
Nolva 20/20/20/20/20

What did you actually do?[/quote]

what I actually did was very similar to what you stated, I did not do all 10,000IU at once, It was 5 2000IU shots EoD with clomid 50 ED and nolva 20ED during the HCG shots and continued that clomid and nolva treatment for 3 weeks after HCG was done as well. basically the Dr Scally Power PCT protocol.

HCG 2000IU EoD days 1-10
clomid 50 ED days 1-31
nolva 20 ED days 1-31
[/quote]

Understood. Even then, i doubt clomid is supposed to be used before your last shot of hcg.

25

In regards to cycobushmaster’s post

Do SERM’s really act like estrogen in the body? My understanding is the complete opposite. Your body has a certain level of estrogen relative to your testosterone level. When your body senses it has too much estrogen, it down-regulates testosterone production. The SERM simply blocks estrogen from receptors, telling your body it has low estrogen, therefore low testosterone and starts producing it again.

That would be the reason why an AI should be used with HCG, and a SERM following the discontinuation of AI. It stops estrogen levels from getting too high. Otherwise your body would rebound and shut down the testes again.

26

[quote]TheTaskmaster wrote:
In regards to cycobushmaster’s post

Do SERM’s really act like estrogen in the body? My understanding is the complete opposite. Your body has a certain level of estrogen relative to your testosterone level. When your body senses it has too much estrogen, it down-regulates testosterone production. The SERM simply blocks estrogen from receptors, telling your body it has low estrogen, therefore low testosterone and starts producing it again.

That would be the reason why an AI should be used with HCG, and a SERM following the discontinuation of AI. It stops estrogen levels from getting too high. Otherwise your body would rebound and shut down the testes again. [/quote]

no, you’re right… i mis-spoke.

SERMs act like estrogen, in that they will act as agonists or antagonists at the estrogen receptor in various tissues.

however, the theory has been proposed elsewhere, that too much of a SERM might cause activation where it’s not intended, due to some sort of up-regulation…

27

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]TheTaskmaster wrote:
In regards to cycobushmaster’s post

Do SERM’s really act like estrogen in the body? My understanding is the complete opposite. Your body has a certain level of estrogen relative to your testosterone level. When your body senses it has too much estrogen, it down-regulates testosterone production. The SERM simply blocks estrogen from receptors, telling your body it has low estrogen, therefore low testosterone and starts producing it again.

That would be the reason why an AI should be used with HCG, and a SERM following the discontinuation of AI. It stops estrogen levels from getting too high. Otherwise your body would rebound and shut down the testes again. [/quote]

no, you’re right… i mis-spoke.

SERMs act like estrogen, in that they will act as agonists or antagonists at the estrogen receptor in various tissues.

however, the theory has been proposed elsewhere, that too much of a SERM might cause activation where it’s not intended, due to some sort of up-regulation…[/quote]

Ah I understand you now

28

cycobushmaster, are you referring to increasing intra-testicular oestrogen?

29

[quote]Yogi wrote:
cycobushmaster, are you referring to increasing intra-testicular oestrogen?[/quote]

no… does that occur in this instance?

i can’t remember where i read the theory (or who proposed it), but they pointed out that while normal doses of various drugs have predictable effects, higher doses can sometimes have paradoxical effects.