11-year-old Tampa Powerlifter

Off Topic
41

[quote]flyhalfnightmare wrote:

[quote]Alffi wrote:
I think powerlifting is just bad for people, period. Sure, if you can truly take it super-carefully it might be OK but the average T-filled young man does not. And form can never be perfect when lifting truly heavy.

Most games and sports occur fairly naturally to people from childhood on. Soccer may be really ‘injurious’ on paper but I doubt anyone has ever felt much fear playing soccer, or gotten a feeling of it being ‘wrong’ for their body. You might get a bruise in the leg but you get conditioned and you’re never increasing the stress. After a weight workout, one feels clogged and stiff in a manner unlike most sports.

Your knees are popping, blood pressure is sky high and small pains and injuries are overlooked to be a man. They’re unlike the smooth muscular soreness and the occasional bruise too. The pains and aches occur around joints. I think there’s just something very counterintuitive to test your spine by loading it with increasingly heavy weights, and trying not to slip so you won’t end up paralyzed or worse.

So I feel the difference between PL and other sports is accidents happen in sports, while in PL one is basically intentionally risking harm with every competition lift.

That’s just my opinion; that numerous bodies are sacrificed at the altar of masculinity and would be healthier off in other sports.[/quote]

These statements show a clear lack of understanding of the biomechanics of the sports you mentioned as well as the pathomechanics of the associated injuries. Making statements such as these show the fallacy of anecdotal evidence. In the hands of a qualified professional, a lifetime of experience is as valuable as any amount of quantitative research but in the uniformed, narrow minded experience which you are presenting it is similar to an N=1 middle school science fair project.

Please present your ideas as a casual opinion and not fact.[/quote]
I believe I said just that; it’s my opinion. As for anecdotal evidence, powerlifting does not exactly count as the great white collar, professional sport. Records are set by average burly people for no or at most miniscule monetary gain or recognition. Bro science is heavy.

Most ‘powerlifting’ in the world is like this, taking place in various gyms of the world. It’s not evaluated by a professional. Most soccer may also be like this, only one soccer game involves as much time and effort as a month of powerlifting but you probably don’t need a guardian to watch over you to make sure you don’t choke to death or break your back, shoulders or knees. Nasty injuries happen in soccer but you have to account for the fact that it’s the biggest sport in the world and can be played every day at full intensity by a healthy person.

I guess I came on a bit strong so let me say that I believe PL can be safe. I just think the damage potential is high and involves risks to many major joints in a way unlike many other sports.

42

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]Alffi wrote:
I think powerlifting is just bad for people, period. Sure, if you can truly take it super-carefully it might be OK but the average T-filled young man does not. And form can never be perfect when lifting truly heavy.

Most games and sports occur fairly naturally to people from childhood on. Soccer may be really ‘injurious’ on paper but I doubt anyone has ever felt much fear playing soccer, or gotten a feeling of it being ‘wrong’ for their body. You might get a bruise in the leg but you get conditioned and you’re never increasing the stress. After a weight workout, one feels clogged and stiff in a manner unlike most sports.

Your knees are popping, blood pressure is sky high and small pains and injuries are overlooked to be a man. They’re unlike the smooth muscular soreness and the occasional bruise too. The pains and aches occur around joints. I think there’s just something very counterintuitive to test your spine by loading it with increasingly heavy weights, and trying not to slip so you won’t end up paralyzed or worse.

So I feel the difference between PL and other sports is accidents happen in sports, while in PL one is basically intentionally risking harm with every competition lift.

That’s just my opinion; that numerous bodies are sacrificed at the altar of masculinity and would be healthier off in other sports.[/quote]

Thanks for stopping by, but I think you’re mistaking this for the Men’s Health forum.[/quote]

What the Hell, Does he even lift or has ever lifted… “weight workout”??? That is straight from a spectator. I truly believe the nearest his hands has come to a weight is a heavy bag full of socks.

Its funny, when someone makes a statement of “I powerlift” people go to the extreme of seeing a man on stage with 2000lbs on there back or a pic of someone with elephant flying out of there ass after doing squats. However if someone says they “Play soccer or Play basketball or Bodybuilds” the first thought is not the extreme. Its sad that the above comment is what most sideliners/benchwarmer will always believe.

[/quote]

Really? Because I played professional basketball. And then after basketball, I started powerlifting. Am I a benchwarmer? PL is about lifting the most weight possible for a single rep. Period. End. Of. Story. Are you telling me that a lifetime of that starting at 11 years old is a good thing? I PL and I can’t clearly say it is. And I’m a guy with more “scars” from basketball than from PL.

This isn’t about whether PL is more or less dangerous than other sports…the question is whether it’s advisable to have someone at 11 begin at that young age what could be a lifetime of maximal loading to the spine.

For the record, I don’t think a lifetime of any competitive sport is “healthy”. Our bodies are not built for repetitive and chronic movement and patterns. So injury from long term participation, whether chronic or acute, is inevitable. Because of this, most experts will advocate that young children play as many different sports as possible. It’s good for their overall athletic development and, you’re not looking at starting repetitive movement patterns on a year round basis.

I’ll repeat, I see nothing wrong with properly supervised weight training - even at a young age. I’m just a bit concerned about starting on a path of max lifts. Don’t think for one minute that that kid who just pulled 220 does not want to bust his little baby nuts to pull 250.[/quote]

Oh hell yeah he wants to do 250. But I am going to disagree with you on the “Power lifting is about lifting Your Max and thats it Period end of subject” Like any COMPETITION when you are there on the court, diamond, track, field or platform you want to do give your max effort.

But not every power lifter that powerlifts competes. To put a child out there and have them give there best you and the child will put up some risk. I wouldn’t want a kid of mind standing while a pitcher is sending a 50 MPH ball at his head but people do it all the time Hell 20MPH is scary as hell. But that is not the whole part its just the end results of training

Just My opinon Powerlifting is not just Max lifts its training off of percentages to increase strength. To compete is something differnt. But I see powerlifting as more than just the platform. I also am a powerlifter. I have not competed in over a year and a half. I still train an train others. I understand your point because you were active in the sport its hard to look past the end results even when your no longer on the platform Your asked about powerlifting and its natural to come out with your Maxes for S/B/DL. Instead of the hours days you put in at sub max levels to get there. Hell out of a year you may not see that Max 2 maybe 3 times unless your competing.

43

[quote]four60 wrote:
Hell out of a year you may not see that Max 2 maybe 3 times unless your competing.[/quote]

sorry, max effort day comes twice a week. we can agree to disagree…opinions can differ without someone being a bench warmer or wanting to wrap their children in a cocoon.

44

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
Hell out of a year you may not see that Max 2 maybe 3 times unless your competing.[/quote]

sorry, max effort day comes twice a week. we can agree to disagree…opinions can differ without someone being a bench warmer or wanting to wrap their children in a cocoon. [/quote]

Agreed, not sure but I’m guessing that’s max off of a percentage of your real max. If not, then Damn that is one hell of a program.
I stay between 60-85% unless it’s a pre-meet program.

45

[quote]Alffi wrote:

Most ‘powerlifting’ in the world is like this, taking place in various gyms of the world. It’s not evaluated by a professional. Most soccer may also be like this, only one soccer game involves as much time and effort as a month of powerlifting but you probably don’t need a guardian to watch over you to make sure you don’t choke to death or break your back, shoulders or knees. Nasty injuries happen in soccer but you have to account for the fact that it’s the biggest sport in the world and can be played every day at full intensity by a healthy person.

I guess I came on a bit strong so let me say that I believe PL can be safe. I just think the damage potential is high and involves risks to many major joints in a way unlike many other sports. [/quote]

WTF? You have no knowledge of the sport, obviously.

I swear one day we’ll hear about you and a clocktower.

46

I could type s book about this, but I suck at typing. Do I’ll keep it short and sweet. The loading on discs and joints of a girl landing after an uneven parallel bar routine or pommel horse will greatly exceed any weight they could lift. A long jump. A sprint produces loading over 10x bodyweight on joints. Cross country has 1000 plus reps at 4-5 x bodyweight on your ankles, knees, lumbar area.

Gymnasts have the good ole spondylisthesis in great proportions. Believe what you want, but the actual real world injury stuff doesn’t pan out as many think. This is from a guy who has actually treated injuries for over twenty years, powerlifter over thirty who’s major injuries are from some ahole who rear ended me.

47

[quote]tom63 wrote:
I could type s book about this, but I suck at typing. Do I’ll keep it short and sweet. The loading on discs and joints of a girl landing after an uneven parallel bar routine or pommel horse will greatly exceed any weight they could lift. A long jump. A sprint produces loading over 10x bodyweight on joints. Cross country has 1000 plus reps at 4-5 x bodyweight on your ankles, knees, lumbar area.

Gymnasts have the good ole spondylisthesis in great proportions. Believe what you want, but the actual real world injury stuff doesn’t pan out as many think. This is from a guy who has actually treated injuries for over twenty years, powerlifter over thirty who’s major injuries are from some ahole who rear ended me.[/quote]

and you conveniently left out fatigue thresholds of discs as a mechanism of rupture. obviously, every time we run or jump we do not degenerate our discs. i see no instructive value to anything you’ve written above. it’s faulty math and logic really. i haven’t seen one person here yet, me included, putting forth the argument that any sport is dangerous than any other. you’ve been nicely working right around the edges, comparing sports where no such argument existed.

the sole question is; is it a good idea to introduce someone that young to a sport that requires maximal effort and loading? particularly during a time when that young person is still developing joint integrity, etc. you sir, are already on record as stating your young child or children participate. might you then be a bit biased?

i’m not a chiropractor and i don’t even play one on tv, but i handled medical malpractice claims for 20 years, many involving the spine and I myself had major spine surgery 10 years ago. i know a thing or three about the spine. i’m not sure i could find any surgeon to agree with an 11 year old powerlifting, but i could be wrong.

48

While on staff at the Arnold Classic I witnessed our Medical Director save a girl’s life when she suffered an upper cervical fracture during gymnastics, the darling sport of the summer Olympics that all the soccer moms think is so cute. Her coach was going to try to get her up to walk it off. Dr. Griffin is an accomplished martial artist with balck belts in Aikido and Tae Know Do.

He did some Aikido throw on the coach and tossed him out of the way, safely held her down, and got her safely transported. She was fine. Upper cervical breaks >>>>>>>>>> lower back strains or sprains. Like it or not other sports are more dangerous.

BTW, my malpractice insurance is 2000$ a year for 1,000,000/3,000,000 insurance in the state of Pa., know for being a high malpractice claim state. Many MDs have left our area for NC for example. I have had one claim in twenty plus years against me. It was a welfare fraud drunk person who was happy to take a 2000$ cash settlement after 12 years. This was done because 1. her lawyer begged us to offer something because he was over 10K into this useless case and the pictures of her working on my cousin’s farm was a little damaging. 2. It would ahve cost me more to take off work for a trial.

Chiropractors have amazingly low malpractice. Yes, we don’t do surgery and prescribe medication, and that does have an effect of course. But it still is low because there are less claims over all for as many damages.

49

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
Hell out of a year you may not see that Max 2 maybe 3 times unless your competing.[/quote]

sorry, max effort day comes twice a week. we can agree to disagree…opinions can differ without someone being a bench warmer or wanting to wrap their children in a cocoon. [/quote]

Max effort comes twice per week in a Westside template, not in the Finnish deadlift routine, 5 3 1, Texas Method and many others.

Seriously, just give up. Louie Simmons, a friend of mine is big in powerlifting, but he’s not the end all. there are guys like Jim Wendler, Larry Pacifico, the old Westside guys etc.

It’s like saying Martin Luther is the end all of Christianity. Louie has changed his tune on stuff over the twelve years I’ve know him and the thirty years I’ve read about him or his stuff. There are other ways to do things than Westside. Every Hear of Bill Starr?

This is frustrating, I’m stopping before I get testy. Carry on without me.

50

[quote]Alffi wrote:

[quote]flyhalfnightmare wrote:

[quote]Alffi wrote:
. Bro science is heavy [/quote]

Serious ? Is that your expert opinion.What is your qualification in saying that ? Do you have a degree in exercise science? Years of training under your belt? So someone using block periodization .Is using Bro science ? Come on now. You can say that about pretty much about any form of training. I mean come on 90 % of the shit you see in the fitness industry is based more on whats saleable then any actual hard science. But you make it sounds like that anyone who powerlifts are lowbrow knuckle draggers who are uneducated and who don’t have even a basic understanding on how there training effects them.

51

[quote]tom63 wrote:
While on staff at the Arnold Classic I witnessed our Medical Director save a girl’s life when she suffered an upper cervical fracture during gymnastics, the darling sport of the summer Olympics that all the soccer moms think is so cute. Her coach was going to try to get her up to walk it off. Dr. Griffin is an accomplished martial artist with balck belts in Aikido and Tae Know Do.

He did some Aikido throw on the coach and tossed him out of the way, safely held her down, and got her safely transported. She was fine. Upper cervical breaks >>>>>>>>>> lower back strains or sprains. Like it or not other sports are more dangerous.

BTW, my malpractice insurance is 2000$ a year for 1,000,000/3,000,000 insurance in the state of Pa., know for being a high malpractice claim state. Many MDs have left our area for NC for example. I have had one claim in twenty plus years against me. It was a welfare fraud drunk person who was happy to take a 2000$ cash settlement after 12 years. This was done because 1. her lawyer begged us to offer something because he was over 10K into this useless case and the pictures of her working on my cousin’s farm was a little damaging. 2. It would ahve cost me more to take off work for a trial.

Chiropractors have amazingly low malpractice. Yes, we don’t do surgery and prescribe medication, and that does have an effect of course. But it still is low because there are less claims over all for as many damages.[/quote]

You’re not an MD, and based upon the limited practice scope of the chiropractor is why your rates are so low. There is no other reason. It is not a reflection of the knowledge or effectiveness of chiropractic, it’s a reflection that your practice is limited in scope, and thus in risk. There are less claims because again, the scope of your practice is limited. No other reason. No one is coming to you for a suspicious lump, a cyst, a cough, a mole, bloodwork, prostrate exam, breast exam, etc. They come to you for aches and pains. And you manipulate, xray and do therapeutic modalities. Little risk there sir.

Start a thread ranking the most dangerous sports, because you and I both know that’s not the point here. We all know the dangers of gymnastics…why do you insist on illustrating them? The question here is whether it’s wise to have an 11 year old engage in a sport that requires maximum lifts. Since you’re on record as stating your own child or children do, don’t think I’m over here waiting for you to change your mind.

52

I was amused when I ran across this link on T-Nation, since it is my son profiled in the article. Contrary to what some on this forum have opined, he doesn’t “max out” every week – he trains on the three powerlifts once a week with submaximal weights (50-80% range, depending on the cycle), and trains at a strongman gym once a week focusing on various speed-strength/plyometric exercises.

He also trains in taekwondo, runs track, does springboard diving and wrestles. He is a straight “A” student and concert violinist. The most difficult part of his life is time management – getting to all of his activities. He is motivated to do all this because he is hyper-competitive and hates losing AT ANYTHING, and his private school REQUIRES all students to play a sport every semester.

I am including a link to an article I recently wrote for AAU Sports on the use of speed-strength training and the powerlifts by youth and teen athletes - http://aaunews.org/news/?p=4362 Bigger, Stronger, Faster: The New Dimension in Youth and Teen Performance Training for Athletics. I don’t know that this article will convince anyone on this forum, but the prevalence of youth athletes using performance coaches applying speed-strength training (including the powerlifts) is significant and growing. It is the wave of the future in youth and teen sports, because coaches have realized it works, and parents will pay to give their child the competitive edge.
While I realize that not everyone will agree with pre-teens lifting weights, we at least need to remove the wives tales and mystery; the truth is, that properly supervised, all kids can benefit, and improve sports performance, using a progressive, appropriate resistance training program applied in a methodical manner.
If you look at the various powerlifting and weightlifting feds, you’ll find youth records dating back quite some time… I know former youth competitors/record-holders who are now adults, but I don’t know any who cite enduring weight-related injuries – on the contrary, they are still active adults.

I suspect that, if lifting big weights as a preteen was linked to serious/permanent injury in kids, federations like AAU, USA Weightlifting, Raw United, 100% Raw powerlifting and other feds that sanction youth lifting would be driven out of business by litigation. Bottom line: While there’s always a chance of injury in youth sports, with proper supervision and safety precautions, learning and executing the powerlifts can be fun for kids and a great conditioning tool for other sports.